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Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




The dark hollows of Kentucky

+1 To Artificier Armour just being "fancy armour". Any Mark. Mark VII definitely being an option.
   
Made in us
Drop Trooper with Demo Charge




USA

 Gert wrote:
Khan has a circular piece of armour on his belt, but that doesn't make it MkII. As for Seth, those are not MkIII gauntlets by any means. MkIII has distinctive wrist covers as seen here:
Spoiler:

Here are some other examples of AA just being fancy MkVII:
Spoiler:



Here are some examples that actually use MkVIII, a newer type of armour, rather than an older suit.
Spoiler:



AA is not required to be an older pattern or a mix of armour patterns. It has never been that. Do some miniatures have mixed or older armour patterns? Yes, but it is by no means a requirement.
But hey, focus on the AA rather than every other point you were completely wrong on.


I didn't say anything about Mk III gloves. I'm starting to doubt you know what the parts of armor are. That circular belt is from Mk II armor. It's a plate to protect the stomach tubes.
The Mk III armor is the upper thigh protection (studded rims instead of raised trim).
Artificer Armor is armor worn or made by a mechanic.
Artiface means clever or hidden mechanical feature, so those digi-weapons on the Mk IX Deathwatch armor do make it into artificer armor.
Marneus is wearing ancient and recycled powerfists.
Most of your examples are from 5th and onward when the lore was completely ruined anyway. Back when all aquila chest plates were recycled Emperors Children breastplates from the battle of Terra, as they were the only Legion allowed to wear the aquila until GW realized how impossible that would be and changed the aquila to a slightly different version.
Funny to say I'm wrong when the creators of the game say that all lore is canon and not canon and anything you want to be true is true. That's the beauty of playing with toys and imagination.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2023/03/19 00:45:15


 
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle





In My Lab

 Adeptekon wrote:
Ah so I can't have an opinion? There's an accessibility to it as well on some level and the fact 40k is a little of everything to everyone.

I'm not going to tell anyone not have an opinion simply because they don't want to invest the time or have the skill to build or mod their own. There for you must not like it.
Black Templars have, with unique meaning a BT exclusive unit...

15 generic HQs
3 unique HQs

6 generic Troops
2 unique Troops

5 generic Dedicated Transports

26 generic Elites
1 unique Elite

14 generic Fast Attacks

3 generic Fliers

21 generic Heavy Supports

1 generic Fortification

That's in the main Codex and BT Supplement. Not touching FW, the community site, or anything like that.

My main faction has...

4 named HQs
5 generic HQs

2 Troops

1 Elite

1 Fast Attack

1 Heavy Support

1 Fortification

Do you really feel that BT aren't supported enough?

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Perfect Shot Black Templar Predator Pilot





The Dark Imperium

 JNAProductions wrote:
 Adeptekon wrote:
Ah so I can't have an opinion? There's an accessibility to it as well on some level and the fact 40k is a little of everything to everyone.

I'm not going to tell anyone not have an opinion simply because they don't want to invest the time or have the skill to build or mod their own. There for you must not like it.
Black Templars have, with unique meaning a BT exclusive unit...

15 generic HQs
3 unique HQs

6 generic Troops
2 unique Troops

5 generic Dedicated Transports

26 generic Elites
1 unique Elite

14 generic Fast Attacks

3 generic Fliers

21 generic Heavy Supports

1 generic Fortification

That's in the main Codex and BT Supplement. Not touching FW, the community site, or anything like that.

My main faction has...

4 named HQs
5 generic HQs

2 Troops

1 Elite

1 Fast Attack

1 Heavy Support

1 Fortification

Do you really feel that BT aren't supported enough?



I was talking about seemly few number of characters (not generics) in consideration to the overall expansive lore to the game, along with some specific criticism on the looks. I hadn't even explored FW, but just looked, that would seem to fall under hobby building side of it as we kinda already discussed, which I had acknowledged, and partially conceded to earlier.

That said do you have any pictures of yours? Did you write up any lore around them?

   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle





In My Lab

You do realize most subfactions don't get ANY unique character options, right?
Like, Tau have six named subfactions. Three of them have unique characters-the rest don't have any.
GSC have zero unique characters.
Dark Eldar have three unique characters-one is subfaction agnostic, the other two aren't. And they have 10 subfactions.

Edit: I apologize if I'm coming off as mean. I've just seen some "Marines don't get enough support" people both in the forum and out at local gaming stores, and it's frustrating when their HQ options are more numerous than my entire faction.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/03/19 20:46:34


Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Drop Trooper with Demo Charge




USA

 JNAProductions wrote:
You do realize most subfactions don't get ANY unique character options, right?
Like, Tau have six named subfactions. Three of them have unique characters-the rest don't have any.
GSC have zero unique characters.
Dark Eldar have three unique characters-one is subfaction agnostic, the other two aren't. And they have 10 subfactions.

Edit: I apologize if I'm coming off as mean. I've just seen some "Marines don't get enough support" people both in the forum and out at local gaming stores, and it's frustrating when their HQ options are more numerous than my entire faction.


Yeah, marines have plenty of characters. Black Templars have a Chapter Master and Chaplain character with the Emperor's Champion as a 3 unique character. They have a unique troop squad and elite squad and once upon a time the Crusader was their tank.
Ultramarines have a Primarch, Chapter Master, Honor Guard, Librarian, Chaplain, Scout Captain and ... I'm sure another character ... The tank guy? Kronos?

Blood Angels have a Librarian, Chapter Master, Apothecary, Chaplain, a sort of second chaplain in Astorath, a unique troop squad, dreadnoughts and tank.

So let's look at other chapters...
White scars... Khan.
Salamanders... Vulkan Hestan?
Imp Fists... Lysander and Tor Garadon
Iron Hands get 1 guy.
Raven Guard 1 guy.

Black Templars have more than enough and one of the better upgrade sprues to boot.
   
Made in us
Perfect Shot Black Templar Predator Pilot





The Dark Imperium

All true, I'm still standing by my criticisms on looks and feels, even though they are most definitely a step up from the old days of stubby looking marines. This all must've sounded like I'm whining, but really, when you've got GW going to schools as part of community outreach to get kids involved... why not focus on getting some official faction stuff available on their website that we don't have to kitbash from other more popular chapters?

Why can't there just be a database of stuff new and old available on demand? Regardless of whether or not your selling sprue sets or figures/units? Like make it all available, they don't have to make every character in the known lore, but when I see models that have been around for over a decade and then it's like here's a big update, let's drop a few new ones in?

I realize this isn't like action figures where you have rosters of figures coming out all the time, but maybe they crossed over into that realm and didn't realize as more and more people are drawn to the IP, but perhaps not hobbyists?

Nothing wrong with the hobby aspect at all, just thinking of the bigger picture and I think we could all say GW has a lot of room to expand without digging this deeper, because honestly I'll let you in on a little secret (I love it)

So anyway here's some noteworthy outstanding Black Templar characters that could be released down the road.

But of course even if they do start releasing moar, we've still got plenty of room to keep customizing and I don't think that aspect will ever change and I wouldn't want it to.

High Marshall Ludoldus
High Marshall Kordhel
Marshall Holgher
Marshall Gheidon
Marshall Maxim
Marshall Daidan
Marshall Verbeckh
Marshall Gershov
Marshall Vygo & The Black Blades
Marshall Hochnor
Marshall Verhoff
Chaplain Anselmus
Castellan Adamus
Castellan Sendric
Castellan Brechan
Captain Navarre
Ancient Dammartin?

Non-Tactical Notable PC:
Artificer Sigamus

But yeah the IP is huge, they've got millions of years to catch up with. By then maybe I'll be a decent modeler/painter.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2023/03/20 20:45:33


   
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Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





Adeptekon wrote:All true, I'm still standing by my criticisms on looks and feels, even though they are most definitely a step up from the old days of stubby looking marines. This all must've sounded like I'm whining, but really, when you've got GW going to schools as part of community outreach to get kids involved... why not focus on getting some official faction stuff available on their website that we don't have to kitbash from other more popular chapters?
So why Black Templars? Why not, like, literally any other non-Marine group? Are Black Templars exponentially more popular than any other group? I think not.

Black Templars have unique stuff. Salamanders don't. Why don't they have these concerns?

Why can't there just be a database of stuff new and old available on demand? Regardless of whether or not your selling sprue sets or figures/units? Like make it all available, they don't have to make every character in the known lore, but when I see models that have been around for over a decade and then it's like here's a big update, let's drop a few new ones in?
Because people have to sculpt and design and market and store those models? I don't know your experience, but it's a damn sight harder than "oh, let's just throw in these models, because we can totally design and publish and market entire new sculpts with all their appropriate machining, molds and sprues just at the drop of a hat, no extra design time needed.

I realize this isn't like action figures where you have rosters of figures coming out all the time, but maybe they crossed over into that realm and didn't realize as more and more people are drawn to the IP, but perhaps not hobbyists?
Again, they can't just magic up new models out of nothing? You don't think they need to design them, make the plastic molds, create stock, and still have them match the quality of other material? AS WELL as doing everything they already have planned? And you want this for just the BT? Or for EVERY faction?

Nothing wrong with the hobby aspect at all, just thinking of the bigger picture and I think we could all say GW has a lot of room to expand without digging this deeper, because honestly I'll let you in on a little secret (I love it)
Yeah - I think maybe you're missing the bigger picture here. There's so much more that GW have on their plate beyond doing some more minor BT heroes.

It's great that you love it, and want to be more involved, but I'll let you in on a little secret - there's a lot of factions, and a lot of them are in worse positions than you.

So anyway here's some noteworthy outstanding Black Templar characters that could be released down the road.

But of course even if they do start releasing [i]moar
, we've still got plenty of room to keep customizing and I don't think that aspect will ever change and I wouldn't want it to.

High Marshall Ludoldus
High Marshall Kordhel
Marshall Holgher
Marshall Gheidon
Marshall Maxim
Marshall Daidan
Marshall Verbeckh
Marshall Gershov
Marshall Vygo & The Black Blades
Marshall Hochnor
Marshall Verhoff
Chaplain Anselmus
Castellan Adamus
Castellan Sendric
Castellan Brechan
Captain Navarre
Ancient Dammartin?

Non-Tactical Notable PC:
Artificer Sigamus

But yeah the IP is huge, they've got millions of years to catch up with. By then maybe I'll be a decent modeler/painter.

Not to sound like I'm flogging a dead horse here, but who the hell are those characters? Versus just a scant few ACTUAL named characters who don't have rules or models who are likely more recognisable than anyone on this list:

Nazdreg
Kardan Stronos
Decimus Felix
The Overfiend of Orktarius
Commander Brightsword
Vect (or, hell, ANY of the cut DE characters)
The Doom of Malan'tai
N'Kari

These are all characters and entities that have long been named and notable, beyond just their own faction. I'd be surprised if even most BT players knew who half of those BT characters are, and it seems like you just pulled out a list of characters from either an old Codex or Lexicanum who are known ONLY by a footnoted name, and nothing else. Meanwhile, any of the characters I've mentioned above are pretty influential, more than just a footnote from a single appearance, and offer more to the game than more characters from an oversaturated faction.


They/them

 
   
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Preparing the Invasion of Terra






It does still come off as very whiney when of all the armies to make custom models for, Marines have it by far the easiest.
Kitbashing isn't for everyone but IMO a lot of people also think that for something to be a kitbash it has to be eight kits with loads of reposing when in reality a weapon or head swap is a kitbash. Marine characters also tend to be a bit "bland" in that they all generally fall into head/weapon swap territory. For Templars, it might be more down to painting heraldry and the like at which point all I can say is practice painting.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/03/21 19:01:46


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Yeah - I think maybe you're missing the bigger picture here. There's so much more that GW have on their plate beyond doing some more minor BT heroes.

It's great that you love it, and want to be more involved, but I'll let you in on a little secret - there's a lot of factions, and a lot of them are in worse positions than you.

...

These are all characters and entities that have long been named and notable, beyond just their own faction. I'd be surprised if even most BT players knew who half of those BT characters are, and it seems like you just pulled out a list of characters from either an old Codex or Lexicanum who are known ONLY by a footnoted name, and nothing else. Meanwhile, any of the characters I've mentioned above are pretty influential, more than just a footnote from a single appearance, and offer more to the game than more characters from an oversaturated faction.


Yeah, pretty much this. I think most of us would love for you to get a bunch of Black Templars kits/datasheets, but only AFTER a lot of the "more deserving" characters get some love.

I'm a phoenix lord fanboy. I'm tickled that Maugan and Jain have received awesome new sculpts recently. But most of the phoenix lords are still using their 2nd edition models. My drukhari have actually lost most of their named characters over time.

I hope your BT get some cools releases eventually, but they're probably a few dozen (or a few hundred) slots down on the priority list.


ATTENTION
. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
 
   
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The Dark Imperium

Sgt_Smudge wrote:So why Black Templars? Why not, like, literally any other non-Marine group? Are Black Templars exponentially more popular than any other group? I think not.

Black Templars have unique stuff. Salamanders don't. Why don't they have these concerns?


Did you see the title of the thread? Sorry I thought this it was obvious I was speaking about the BTs. Why because I am interested in them? collect them personally? and have the 9th edition codex? And entertain their lore by spending a lot of time discussing it and taking in commentary?

These are my initial thoughts on the presentation of the hobby side. I hadn't planned to give any thoughts on your favorites here.

A few posts ago this was touched on by someone else, and sure I feel for you. I'm giving an opinion, I don't assume I hold some power to dictate what GW does next. Though my money is green.

But hey like I said it's not meant to detract from your expectations for your own desires. People get pretty ruffled when someone shares and opinion about what direction a developer should go. This actually hasn't generated as much kick back as I thought it potentially could since 40k is an incredibly broad IP. And there's a ton of folk on dakka.

Everyone's got an interest somewhere and BTs are my interest. There is no one cause here, many avenues to appreciate and support it beyond tactical play.

I also support your right make a topic about what should be done next.

It again was mainly a critique of the art style/sculpts and how they present market those (I presume we're allowed to critique on a public forum?) well then that was it. If someone told me why everything was perfect I'd listen, but so far just hearing why I shouldn't have spoken.


Sgt_Smudge wrote:Because people have to sculpt and design and market and store those models? I don't know your experience, but it's a damn sight harder than "oh, let's just throw in these models, because we can totally design and publish and market entire new sculpts with all their appropriate machining, molds and sprues just at the drop of a hat, no extra design time needed.



First, the BT's are not just some a random unknown chapter, despite this when you search specifically on BTs at GW's website you find a few BT branded items and then it's Ultra Marines? Now first checking this all out, I had to search around the website a few times to make sure I didn't miss something. I had no idea if the parts were interchangeable as I didn't know anything. And it's not clear on the website at all (or I missed it)

But that low bar has since been hurdled and I feel the same about it now as being incomplete marketing.

And yes I acknowledge it's the same of Iron Hands etc. It does fall under marketing, but I do not believe it a detractor to better market the factions with their own stuff.

So community outreach first then website kits later or in some other decade. Seems odd to me, but yes you're well beyond the entry level of first-finding-out what's what and who is who, where and how. Unlike people who just discover it for the first time, but perhaps not through the books or through gaming circuits.

Box branding and images on the website which reflect the faction they're for. That's not asking for the world, and very surface level. It's not like the BT's are going away any time soon so they shouldn't be worried about making extra box art when they already have plenty of it.

I think this is just better promoting what they have even if it's the same unit for the UM's.

Very surface level, cosmetic and still in my opinion should be done at some point in the next 40 years. I didn't put a deadline on it.


Sgt_Smudge wrote:Again, they can't just magic up new models out of nothing? You don't think they need to design them, make the plastic molds, create stock, and still have them match the quality of other material? AS WELL as doing everything they already have planned? And you want this for just the BT? Or for EVERY faction?



But they do on the whole, it's not like they don't have the templates for any characters as you've pointed out some. GW is doing rather swell overall, I don't believe they're hurting financially. They're growing in fact. They own the most popular wargame franchise in the world. They're in a far better position to be putting stuff out regularly than these Indy companies/guys and gals on Etsy.


Sgt_Smudge wrote:Yeah - I think maybe you're missing the bigger picture here. There's so much more that GW have on their plate beyond doing some more minor BT heroes.

It's great that you love it, and want to be more involved, but I'll let you in on a little secret - there's a lot of factions, and a lot of them are in worse positions than you.



Yep. I agree, I feel like I'm repeating myself a bit here so I won't. I don't retract much of my OP either. Because I believe I can have some thoughts on this and acknowledge that at the same time and let GW decide as if they were reading this (or are they?)



Sgt_Smudge wrote:These are all characters and entities that have long been named and notable, beyond just their own faction. I'd be surprised if even most BT players knew who half of those BT characters are, and it seems like you just pulled out a list of characters from either an old Codex or Lexicanum who are known ONLY by a footnoted name, and nothing else. Meanwhile, any of the characters I've mentioned above are pretty influential, more than just a footnote from a single appearance, and offer more to the game than more characters from an oversaturated faction.



No not an old one, but the current 9th edition codex. Pardon for placing any kind of importance on them considering they were important enough to be in it. That said thank you for providing that list, I'll include them next time too.

I'm not addressing BT players really, but I get the tactical wargame takes precedence throughout history. My first exposure to Warhammer was the RPG.

It sounds as though there is only one way to warhammer, but I disagree.


Sgt_Smudge wrote:So why Black Templars? Why not, like, literally any other non-Marine group? Are Black Templars exponentially more popular than any other group? I think not.


I think it should be clear now, but I support your favorites getting what they need too. Anything that is officially cannon, popular, and core to the game/story that is currently lacking I will support getting that fleshed out properly all the way from a marketing level to more content.

No issue at all with that.



Gert wrote:It does still come off as very whiney when of all the armies to make custom models for, Marines have it by far the easiest.
Kitbashing isn't for everyone but IMO a lot of people also think that for something to be a kitbash it has to be eight kits with loads of reposing when in reality a weapon or head swap is a kitbash. Marine characters also tend to be a bit "bland" in that they all generally fall into head/weapon swap territory. For Templars, it might be more down to painting heraldry and the like at which point all I can say is practice painting.



Yep. But lets say I was just buying assembled and painted models as a collector because of time, job, life etc. Now I have the time and will to try out the hobby, where as I did not before. It's a pretty significant learning curve.

But to old vets I get it's merely old hat, to build, chop, and paint 'em up me boyz!

So and just for refence too has anyone seen the Warhammer JoyToys? Are these even official? They're out of Texas. https://joytoyfigure.com/collections/joytoy-warhammer-40k/

I believe these are action figures that look as good if not better than the models in some respects (maybe it's the scale/detail level), and they're ready to hit the ground running unless I again missed something and they really need to be assembled and painted?


This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2023/03/21 20:55:26


   
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 Adeptekon wrote:

Yep. But lets say I was just buying assembled and painted models as a collector because of time, job, life etc. Now I have the time and will to try out the hobby, where as I did not before. It's a pretty significant learning curve.

But to old vets I get it's merely old hat, to build, chop, and paint 'em up me boyz!

The learning curve is not nearly that bad. Obviously, those who have been in the hobby for longer are going to find it easier but there have also been boatloads of people who only started Warhammer during the first year of Covid who can paint better than I do after a decade with the hobby. You might not enjoy building or painting either which is totally fine but IMO learning even the basics of both enhances the enjoyment of the hobby massively.

So and just for refence too has anyone seen the Warhammer JoyToys? Are these even official? They're out of Texas. https://joytoyfigure.com/collections/joytoy-warhammer-40k/

I believe these are action figures that look as good if not better than the models in some respects (maybe it's the scale/detail level), and they're ready to hit the ground running unless I again missed something and they really need to be assembled and painted?

JoyToy is an officially licensed partner of GW and is making 1/18 scale versions of Warhammer minis in action figure form. The size of the figures means that they are much better detailed than their miniature counterparts but they aren't gaming pieces like Warhammer models are.
   
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The Dark Imperium

I'm near sighted, but after attempting to paint detail I'm beginning to wonder if I've lost some of that too. We'll see what happens. When I get a magnifier.



   
 
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