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Made in gb
Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch




dorset

lets be honest, the free index is because they are re-writing the core rules, in a way that invalidates the existing codices. they *need* to put up a get-you-by index or else most people wont transition to the new rules because they *have* no new rules. Its the same reasons as they did in with 3e and 8e, the core datasheet changes necessitated it.

they make clear that new codexes ARE coming. they claim they will be restrained and only offer sidegrades, not expansions, but time will tell if they can hold themselves to it. However, in can pretty much guarantee that you *will* need to pay for the full rules once the relevant codex drops, either directly via the app, the physical codex (which probs still has the app unlock code in it, like now), or the hardcopy datacards.

If they hold themselves to the current level of info on the revealed datasheets, and keep that much free (like they already do with the 40k app, its strats, WLT, relics, etc that are paywalled), that would be workable.

what i hope they CAN Deliver on his the "less desperate leafing between pages looking for that one special rule" part. if they can keep the unit rules on the datacards, that'd be great. could easily cut 30 minutes off the play time just by better layout like that.


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Made in at
Second Story Man





Austria

question is still if we get the full rules and index for free or not

simply because the last time, the "the rules are free" did cover some essential parts of the game and you still needed to buy in to play the full game

that we don't have to buy Index books is good, but than I remember the free unit rules we got at the beginning of AoS to make the transition easier
so not sure about that one

I might be surprised that things are going well for release, but there is simply nothing that makes me think that this is not just the usual marketing bs from GW and what we get is not what most people expect from "free rules"

Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka





I can't help but think that One-Page-Rules has been an influence on this new edition of 40K.

The important thing is that GW offers rules in an affordable and lite format. Not every player will be interested in attending clubs and events, but hosting a basic game at their home where the important thing is to have fun with friends and family, regardless of the outcome.

This is one of the reasons why I enjoy Age of Sigmar, because all I need are the download rules and warscroll packs.

Casual gaming, mostly solo-coop these days.

 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut






SamusDrake wrote:
I can't help but think that One-Page-Rules has been an influence on this new edition of 40K.

If that were true, why on earth should anyone spend god knows how much money on books for 40k when OPR is *right there*, with an enjoyable, engaging and sensibly constructed game that is entirely free. GW don't want any of those things.

I mean *really* now, are people falling for the same marketing speak again? All the while Codices exist, and you need them for rules, nothing about GW's "design" process will change.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/03/24 11:49:34


 
   
Made in at
Second Story Man





Austria

because 40k is the "official" system and used for events

same as other games have influenced 40k in the past, but people rather play the GW copy than the original

Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




As a non GW gamer who actually has a small collection of random 40K models, the thought that 10th Ed might have been coming with free rules and stats in an app that provides all updates, list building and battle/game management inc damage tracking etc (you know like almost every other established gaming company out there) had me genuinely interested.

But as it looks like that not the case and you will still need lots of physical books, my interest is waning very quickly.
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




My gaming group is very excited to have unit stat cards, whether we have to pay for them or not. So much more functional than a big book!

I fully expect 10th ed to bloat out over time. Capitalism tells businesses to continually provide new things to sell to buyers, or else the buyers will move on. New releases are a part of how it works. They basically have to choose between new units/models, or new rules. Rules are more cost effective. It'll happen.

But in the meantime, we're excited about unit cards and simpler rules.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





xerxeskingofking wrote:
lets be honest, the free index is because they are re-writing the core rules, in a way that invalidates the existing codices. they *need* to put up a get-you-by index or else most people wont transition to the new rules because they *have* no new rules. Its the same reasons as they did in with 3e and 8e, the core datasheet changes necessitated it.

they make clear that new codexes ARE coming. they claim they will be restrained and only offer sidegrades, not expansions, but time will tell if they can hold themselves to it. However, in can pretty much guarantee that you *will* need to pay for the full rules once the relevant codex drops, either directly via the app, the physical codex (which probs still has the app unlock code in it, like now), or the hardcopy datacards.

If they hold themselves to the current level of info on the revealed datasheets, and keep that much free (like they already do with the 40k app, its strats, WLT, relics, etc that are paywalled), that would be workable.

what i hope they CAN Deliver on his the "less desperate leafing between pages looking for that one special rule" part. if they can keep the unit rules on the datacards, that'd be great. could easily cut 30 minutes off the play time just by better layout like that.



It's entirely possible core rules can be free, because they'll charge every 6 months for gt rules.

Regular income is better than selling a big book for a year or less.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/03/28 04:57:06


 
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





xerxeskingofking wrote:
lets be honest, the free index is because they are re-writing the core rules, in a way that invalidates the existing codices. they *need* to put up a get-you-by index or else most people wont transition to the new rules because they *have* no new rules. Its the same reasons as they did in with 3e and 8e, the core datasheet changes necessitated it.


8e indexes were not free ;-) So no they didn't have to do free index. That's at least change.

they make clear that new codexes ARE coming. they claim they will be restrained and only offer sidegrades, not expansions, but time will tell if they can hold themselves to it. However, in can pretty much guarantee that you *will* need to pay for the full rules once the relevant codex drops, either directly via the app, the physical codex (which probs still has the app unlock code in it, like now), or the hardcopy datacards.


Doesn't matter if they are sidegrades though. You still have to buy it or not play army in most enviroments.

So far only change to how 8e/9e was handled is free index.

Free core rules? Check.
Free index? Nope.
Codex coming? Check.

And somehow I doubt core rules has full mission pack so you end up buying the 2 CA's/year as well.

2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in us
Black Templar Servitor Dragging Masonry




mrFickle wrote:
I haven’t watched the adepticon stuff but read the press release and all data sheets needed for your army to play 10th with be available and I think this means stratagems etc aswell.

So codexes will become a collectors item for additional lore etc. I think this is a great idea buuuuuuuut …… it sounds a bit too good to be true.

Do you think this is a compromise because some 9th codexes have just come out and eventually we will need to buy codexes as they enhance 10th or have GW learned the benefit of providing free stuff to get people playing the game???


No Indexes will be free. Core rules may or may not be reprinted in a core rule book which needs to be purchased at some point. Codices will come back and need to be purchased. You will probably be able to get unit cards fairly easily for free or very cheap.

 
   
Made in de
Servoarm Flailing Magos




Germany

 MalusCalibur wrote:
SamusDrake wrote:
I can't help but think that One-Page-Rules has been an influence on this new edition of 40K.

If that were true, why on earth should anyone spend god knows how much money on books for 40k when OPR is *right there*, with an enjoyable, engaging and sensibly constructed game that is entirely free. GW don't want any of those things.

I mean *really* now, are people falling for the same marketing speak again? All the while Codices exist, and you need them for rules, nothing about GW's "design" process will change.


Just like with alternative operating systems for your home PC, it might well be true that they're better, faster, safer or whatever than the ubiquitous ones, but many people just want to plug and play, have access to official stores, software etc. without having to engage with the OS itself on any deeper level than necessary and do the work of customizing stuff to fit in new releases and their favourite armies. Just like Linux user groups or retro-computing, alternative rule systems and oldhammer groups exist and are a valuable part of the community, but their mass appeal is limited at least as long as GW keeps pushing an official ruleset and steady new releases. Once a product is abandonend that may well change and the community can agree to use a specific community ruleset as the standard like it did with Epic, but that probably will only happen to 40k if GW ceases to exist.
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




Tampa, FL

IMHO the real test will be "core rules free". Key word being CORE RULES. The core rules of 8th and 9th is just that, not narrative/matched play which were only in the big rulebook and without that the game was virtually unplayable outside of demo games.

I have zero reason to think it won't be the same this time. Core rules will be free, yes, but to actually play more than a very simple demo game you need to buy the likely $70+ rulebook.

I'll be shocked if the free rules actually include anything for matched play. At this point I'd hope GW realizes that matched play is like 90% or more of games played, even for narrative, and cut out this 3 ways to play nonsense. It's already bad enough that even most casual games are dictated by the current GT pack so anything not allowed in those aren't allowed in any game.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2023/03/28 09:52:58


- Wayne
Formerly WayneTheGame 
   
Made in ca
Discriminating Deathmark Assassin





Stasis

Wayniac wrote:
IMHO the real test will be "core rules free". Key word being CORE RULES. The core rules of 8th and 9th is just that, not narrative/matched play which were only in the big rulebook and without that the game was virtually unplayable outside of demo games.

I have zero reason to think it won't be the same this time. Core rules will be free, yes, but to actually play more than a very simple demo game you need to buy the likely $70+ rulebook.

I'll be shocked if the free rules actually include anything for matched play. At this point I'd hope GW realizes that matched play is like 90% or more of games played, even for narrative, and cut out this 3 ways to play nonsense. It's already bad enough that even most casual games are dictated by the current GT pack so anything not allowed in those aren't allowed in any game.


Doing this would kill the game for so many people.

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Made in at
Second Story Man





Austria

the chance is very high that the free stuff are just the basics and you still need to buy something for the full game

and GW does not care if it kills the game for those that play as long as enough people buy the models

Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise 
   
Made in ca
Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon






Zarathustra Spake wrote:
mrFickle wrote:
I haven’t watched the adepticon stuff but read the press release and all data sheets needed for your army to play 10th with be available and I think this means stratagems etc aswell.

So codexes will become a collectors item for additional lore etc. I think this is a great idea buuuuuuuut …… it sounds a bit too good to be true.

Do you think this is a compromise because some 9th codexes have just come out and eventually we will need to buy codexes as they enhance 10th or have GW learned the benefit of providing free stuff to get people playing the game???


No Indexes will be free. Core rules may or may not be reprinted in a core rule book which needs to be purchased at some point. Codices will come back and need to be purchased. You will probably be able to get unit cards fairly easily for free or very cheap.


If they stick to the army rules for each Detachment being able to fit on a two-page spread, it'll probably be just a matter of clicking on the "Print Army Rules" checkbox in Battlescribe to get them printed out alongside your datacards.

EDIT: Re-reading the initial reveal article, it says that the rules for the subfaction/detachment will be on the cards as well as the datasheets - so I'll probably just buy the card pack with all the rules and skip the bound book entirely.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/03/28 12:08:27


 
   
Made in ro
Longtime Dakkanaut





I think they are getting rid of detachments in 10th. I think there will just be a a cap on certain units per x points
   
Made in us
Brigadier General






Chicago

SamusDrake wrote:
I can't help but think that One-Page-Rules has been an influence on this new edition of 40K.

I do think OPR slightly figures into this equation. While we all know that there will be cash grabs to come, the fact that even the equivalent of the 8th edition indices will now be free may indicate that GW is just slightly more nervous about folks getting a bit too curious about other "compatible" games. They have to have noticed the growing popularity of OPR.

Giving folks near as much as OPR does at least until the book train starts rolling is a smart business move. I love Grimdark Future and haven't bought a current 40k book in over a decade, but I'll likely give Free10th at least one or two plays. I have near-zero expectation they will win me back. However, I can't deny that they've definitely baited the hook well to keep existing players firmly on it and lure in others.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/03/28 17:11:18


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Wayniac wrote:
It's GW. There's no way they won't ruin it again by adding more bloat to codex releases. It'll be 8th over again because they still haven't learned the codex system is garbage


It's not that the codex system is garbage. The issue is that GW never set clear and defined design parameters for an edition. They never stay in their lane so to speak and allow the rules team to shift and move in any direction they fancy throughout the edition. The corporate side is happy to allow this to happen as it's their means to bin the whole thing and sell a new edition. It also doesn't help that they do not properly playtest. They admitted this when the LoV codex needed an update prior to release. They admitted that they play only a few games, not even with full armies, against the previous codex and the next codex in the release schedule. It's about the most piss-poor methodology of testing I've ever heard of.

What it... If the information from the 8th edition indexes were broken out into faction books (i.e. codexes), but the index information unchanged. It would have functionally been the same game (i.e. 8th ed. index W40K), but with codexes.

   
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Mods Delete this post please

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/03/28 16:45:56


 
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




Tampa, FL

 oni wrote:
Wayniac wrote:
It's GW. There's no way they won't ruin it again by adding more bloat to codex releases. It'll be 8th over again because they still haven't learned the codex system is garbage


It's not that the codex system is garbage. The issue is that GW never set clear and defined design parameters for an edition. They never stay in their lane so to speak and allow the rules team to shift and move in any direction they fancy throughout the edition. The corporate side is happy to allow this to happen as it's their means to bin the whole thing and sell a new edition. It also doesn't help that they do not properly playtest. They admitted this when the LoV codex needed an update prior to release. They admitted that they play only a few games, not even with full armies, against the previous codex and the next codex in the release schedule. It's about the most piss-poor methodology of testing I've ever heard of.

What it... If the information from the 8th edition indexes were broken out into faction books (i.e. codexes), but the index information unchanged. It would have functionally been the same game (i.e. 8th ed. index W40K), but with codexes.

That's what it should be. But they have to sell you a codex, and unless it has updated rules it won't sell.

- Wayne
Formerly WayneTheGame 
   
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Any edition can be a "free" edition if you know where to look.
   
Made in ca
Arch Magos w/ 4 Meg of RAM






 Gangland wrote:
Any edition can be a "free" edition if you know where to look.


yeah but think of the 1% player that go to big tournaments and are required to bring all their physical rules!!! (yes, that includes rules from a fething magazine or even a fething novel lol)

   
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 VladimirHerzog wrote:
 Gangland wrote:
Any edition can be a "free" edition if you know where to look.


yeah but think of the 1% player that go to big tournaments and are required to bring all their physical rules!!! (yes, that includes rules from a fething magazine or even a fething novel lol)


Wait... They put rules in the black library books now? I don't know anything about tourneys but seem wierd GW sell digital versions that you can't use at them lol.
   
Made in ca
Arch Magos w/ 4 Meg of RAM






 Gangland wrote:
 VladimirHerzog wrote:
 Gangland wrote:
Any edition can be a "free" edition if you know where to look.


yeah but think of the 1% player that go to big tournaments and are required to bring all their physical rules!!! (yes, that includes rules from a fething magazine or even a fething novel lol)


Wait... They put rules in the black library books now? I don't know anything about tourneys but seem wierd GW sell digital versions that you can't use at them lol.


yeah lol, rules for the "Emperor's spears" chapter were in a novel (Spear of the Emperor)
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut





Wayniac wrote:
It's GW. There's no way they won't ruin it again by adding more bloat to codex releases. It'll be 8th over again because they still haven't learned the codex system is garbage


As long as customers remain stupid and buy into that edition cycle crap GW will not refrain from printing codex books in the future which become obsolete sooner than later.
   
Made in au
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Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

"Check it this brand new car!"
"Oh my God. That's amazing. Is it the latest?"
"The latest sports car. Every possible feature on the market. It's the best one we've ever made."
"It looks incredible."
"And it is. Runs smooth. Great performance. Tons of features and luxuries."
"Sweet!"
"And it's yours."
"It's mine?"
"Yep. All yours. Completely for free. You own this car. Pretty cool, right?"
"And I just own it?"
"It's free!"
"Wow. Thanks so much."
"Of course if you want to drive it, you'll need this key."
"That key?"
"Yeah. That'll be $300,000 thanks."



This is not a free edition.


This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2023/03/29 07:27:32


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Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




All I hope is that the "free" is not going to be "free" with a subscription of Warhammer+.
For marine players the "free" time is going to be like 2 to 4-5 months, and for the rest it is going to be a roll of a dice. You can be like IG updated in 2.5 years time, punished with playing an index till then, or you can be the first non core marine book. And then one has to pray to not be getting a streamlined/tone it down book. Mid edition the balance stuff is going to be the same it was in 8th and 9th.

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Austria

 Strg Alt wrote:
Wayniac wrote:
It's GW. There's no way they won't ruin it again by adding more bloat to codex releases. It'll be 8th over again because they still haven't learned the codex system is garbage


As long as customers remain stupid and buy into that edition cycle crap GW will not refrain from printing codex books in the future which become obsolete sooner than later.
as long as people play that game, there will be enough new people not knowing how to pirate stuff and buy into it

if you don't want people to buy the books, don't play the game

Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Core rules have been free for 8th and 9th. This PDF is likely what people should expect for free rules.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/Lw4o3USx1R8sU7cQ.pdf
   
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Tampa, FL

Yeah. Basically useless outside if teaching games.

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Formerly WayneTheGame 
   
 
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