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Your forget that tournament play becomes the default, especially for pickup games.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Your forget that tournament play becomes the default, especially for pickup games.

it certainly tends to if you let it but it will go that way unless controlled

saw it in the days of Fantasy with someone always moaning how something or other didn't comply with whatever tournament pack they though was a requirement

for me it becomes another, yet another question to ask pre-game

I wasn't even planning on getting 10th, didn't get 9th and didn't miss it, youngest was the same but he is starting to play it against others so likely will end up with it at some point

I suspect I have armies where the majority will be "legends" or otherwise no longer game legal due to changes in unit compositions

I'm not planning on letting this bother me, I'm not planning on playing in events

can't hurt to try to promote a more generally accepting play style, may not work but can't hurt to try

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Your forget that tournament play becomes the default, especially for pickup games.

I have not forgotten that. At all. I view this constant tourney focus/obsession as a poison to our hobby.
I advocate for switching your point of view on what the standard should be.
Thus the only time you should be concerned with tourney restrictions is.... if you're in a tourney.

I'm curious as to what peoples breaking point is concerning not being able to use their models - that GW supplies rules for in the current edition.

It's all well and good to say that, but that's not reflected in reality.

Wellp, thats a few hundred, maybe a few thousand dollars of minis that I will probably never be able to use again unless I start diversifying my 30k collection into more armies and multiple legions. Saying "their still official and legal for matched play" is all well and good, but it really just creates the perception of there being two tiers of legality/play, and most people only want to play at the highest tier.e highest tier.

For me (and many others) the "not legal for competitive play" bit is a death sentence for these minis. I don't play competitively or attend tournaments, but most of my regular opponents do, and "if its good enough for the tournament crowd, its good enough for everyone else" is the prevailing school of thought in my local meta. Several of my regular opponents (mostly tournament players, but theres a casual in there too) have already started listing those minis for sale online to cut their losses, a couple people already indicated that they won't agree to play against those models, etc. Legends is dead on arrival.

And contrary to CCS take, I'm just one person in a clear minority mindset, at least insofar as my local meta is concerned. If I haven't been able to break that prevailing community mentality after 20 years in the hobby already, Im probably not going to break it now.

ccs wrote:
Eventually you'll all learn to embrace non-tourney play....

Better hope GW get the rules sufficiently balanced (and functional) for non-tourney play on the first pass; because they ain't revisiting them...

Welp, those three Spartans I got for my death guard seem like a bit of a waste now. HBMC is right (screenshot that, I won't be caught saying it again). Tournament rules DO become the standard for pickup games in many cases, especially in stores.

It happened with base sizes (remember, 9th edition does not have base size rules outside of GT missions)
It happened with the Rule of 3
It even already happened with legends!

If your local group are fine with Legends units then I'm genuinely happy for you, but legending a unit makes it a second-tier class of model and people will shun it, especially if GW are using "balance" as an excuse (as if the rest of the un-legended units are balanced!). Why would you willingly allow an opponent to use a model that GW themselves have implied is unbalanced?

Yep. It's gakky.

I'd say write GW, but I see this decision as them not wanting to produce these kits any longer and focusing their resin production other projects. They made a cost benefit analysis and the loss of sales and upset customers doesn't outweigh savings from not having to support these models.

Maybe if we bug them enough they'll push some new plastics.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Your forget that tournament play becomes the default, especially for pickup games.

When was the last time you heard someone talk about how they used a chaplain dread in their games? And how often does that happen for different happen? Worse part is that the chaos stuff wasn't HH, but got legend anyway and the marine stuff still has in its write up that it can be used for HH and w40k.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Charax 809890 11541858 wrote:. Why would you willingly allow an opponent to use a model that GW themselves have implied is unbalanced?

"But you can use it in open or narrative" the format that no one plays.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Yep. It's gakky.

I'd say write GW, but I see this decision as them not wanting to produce these kits any longer and focusing their resin production other projects. They made a cost benefit analysis and the loss of sales and upset customers doesn't outweigh savings from not having to support these models.

Maybe if we bug them enough they'll push some new plastics.

The Spartan IS a new plastic kit. Legended anyways.

Yea there's a few that are odd. Kratos as well.

Perhaps it also helps define how successful HH is without muddying the waters. The balance thing feels secondary.

The big upside? Custodes units are still good to go. I wonder if that is a portent of them going plastic? Honestly, for a few of the FW Custodes units not only does it make sense, it would be as easy as an upgrade sprue.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Yea there's a few that are odd. Kratos as well.

Perhaps it also helps define how successful HH is without muddying the waters. The balance thing feels secondary.

Yeah, a "few". Let's see, there's the: Spartan, Kratos, Sicaran, Typhon, Cerberus, Contemptor, and Leviathan. And they'll be more coming. This isn't because of "Resin? Ewwww." And it isn't about "balance".

And, again, it covers multiple daemon engines that have always been 40k units, and Dreadclaws, that were 40k units looonngggg before being 30k units.

This is just straight up "Play with the toys that we want you to".

Oh I agree with you. Surely marines will see a bunch of new units coming in 10th, which will certainly be a slap in the face based on their original reasoning. They definitely painted themselves into a corner with this.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Oh I agree with you. Surely marines will see a bunch of new units coming in 10th, which will certainly be a slap in the face based on their original reasoning. They definitely painted themselves into a corner with this.

Yup. You nailed, Daed. You absolutely nailed it.

Charax wrote:
Welp, those three Spartans I got for my death guard seem like a bit of a waste now. HBMC is right (screenshot that, I won't be caught saying it again). Tournament rules DO become the standard for pickup games in many cases, especially in stores.

It happened with base sizes (remember, 9th edition does not have base size rules outside of GT missions)
It happened with the Rule of 3
It even already happened with legends!

If your local group are fine with Legends units then I'm genuinely happy for you, but legending a unit makes it a second-tier class of model and people will shun it, especially if GW are using "balance" as an excuse (as if the rest of the un-legended units are balanced!). Why would you willingly allow an opponent to use a model that GW themselves have implied is unbalanced?

Is this really common for everyone else outside of big tournaments? My city's got a fairly large 40k community and I've never had an issue playing my Legends units in any tournaments around the city regardless of who was hosting it. They did adopt the rule of three, but that's about it from competitive rules. My main gripe was always that the power creep leaves them behind an makes them feel terrible to play after a while. I wouldn't mind so much if they said something like "every edition we'll give Legends a quick pass and a little tweak to keep them up to date" so that they're never super strong/optimal, but feel relevant enough. I'm weary though that when 11th comes out, the Legends units will feel clunky and/or be objectively bad units compared to anything else. A good example of this were that Knarloc Riders were pretty solid at the dawn of 8th, not amazing, but good. By the time 9th rolled around, they were objectively terrible, the Krootox at 5 points less per model did everything they did, twice as well.


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 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Oh I agree with you. Surely marines will see a bunch of new units coming in 10th, which will certainly be a slap in the face based on their original reasoning. They definitely painted themselves into a corner with this.

Yup. You nailed, Daed. You absolutely nailed it.

But those will be PRIMARIS OHHH AHHH, that makes them better!

 Tawnis wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Oh I agree with you. Surely marines will see a bunch of new units coming in 10th, which will certainly be a slap in the face based on their original reasoning. They definitely painted themselves into a corner with this.

Yup. You nailed, Daed. You absolutely nailed it.

But those will be PRIMARIS OHHH AHHH, that makes them better!

Look, I know that you're cracking wise and are "on side" with me, but that is very poor consolation for CSM players who have lost multiple daemon engines and our only source for drop pods, which we've had for 21 years.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Tawnis wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Oh I agree with you. Surely marines will see a bunch of new units coming in 10th, which will certainly be a slap in the face based on their original reasoning. They definitely painted themselves into a corner with this.

Yup. You nailed, Daed. You absolutely nailed it.

But those will be PRIMARIS OHHH AHHH, that makes them better!

Look, I know that you're cracking wise and are "on side" with me, but that is very poor consolation for CSM players who have lost multiple daemon engines and our only source for drop pods, which we've had for 21 years.

i for one absolutely revel in the fact that the scouring seemingly took place until M41, afterall these dameonengines are classified as HH legends , aren't they?
I welcome our new Decimator dark mechanicus overlords, and their arachnid pets the scorpion of brass.
Long shall they reign.

Surely the ancient art of sticking daemons in vehicles was well known by M30 and broadly understood by the priesthood.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Tawnis wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Oh I agree with you. Surely marines will see a bunch of new units coming in 10th, which will certainly be a slap in the face based on their original reasoning. They definitely painted themselves into a corner with this.

Yup. You nailed, Daed. You absolutely nailed it.

But those will be PRIMARIS OHHH AHHH, that makes them better!

Look, I know that you're cracking wise and are "on side" with me, but that is very poor consolation for CSM players who have lost multiple daemon engines and our only source for drop pods, which we've had for 21 years.

i for one absolutely revel in the fact that the scouring seemingly took place until M41, afterall these dameonengines are classified as HH legends , aren't they?
I welcome our new Decimator dark mechanicus overlords, and their arachnid pets the scorpion of brass.
Long shall they reign.

Surely the ancient art of sticking daemons in vehicles was well known by M30 and broadly understood by the priesthood.

Yes, apparently. Even for the Daemon engines not known until long after the Heresy. /s

I wonder if the Infernus Abomination will be in Legends for Chaos?

Retiring some of these things seems dumb to me. Just make them worse in 40k than in HH.

Contemptor and Relic Contemptor are the ones that hurt....

Tome_Keeper wrote:
Retiring some of these things seems dumb to me. Just make them worse in 40k than in HH.

Contemptor and Relic Contemptor are the ones that hurt....

That doesn't hurt at all. Because they are in codex SM and have therefore replacement options. From a rules mechanic standpoint.

Now on the side of CSM... yeah that really stings because this just ripped out ALL the ok to good shooting the list had remaining. All the deployment options.


Ultimativly i have a feeling the GW 40k studio got a bit cold feet after seeing that HH units sell quite well for 40k use. (that has of course multiple reasons, one being often cheaper than 40k equivalents, the other being they just look better than a lot of the recent primaris stuff.)

Of course just because you have mechanically equivalents available doesn't mean that it isn't an utter dick move by GW to invalidate them for the modus that will come in some variations to dominate the "normal" matched play ruleset but he, nobody cared when corsairs and R&H got yeeted, why should people now care about some "fringe "Fw models.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Tome_Keeper wrote:
Retiring some of these things seems dumb to me. Just make them worse in 40k than in HH.

Contemptor and Relic Contemptor are the ones that hurt....

That doesn't hurt at all. Because they are in codex SM and have therefore replacement options. From a rules mechanic standpoint.

I wouldn't be so sure about that...

 Matrindur wrote:

 Piglet Bro wrote:
I didn’t see relic Terminators mentioned in the legends article, will they be kept in 10th for competitive?

They answered in a facebook comment that they would be going to legends

Mechanical replacement aka units that do the same job .

I don’t get the complaint about legends, really. It has been hard to include FW units since 7th Edition when they were excluded from most formations that ruled the game. The FW indizes in 8th and 9th weren't great too and their Faqs were usually nothing substantial. So, for me the situation is exactly like it was before: some FW units won't have rules and need to stand in (Necrosius, Plague Hulk), others will probably look a little out of place once the codex comes in, but they're still normal units (Blight drones).
My gaming table is 4x6 and I never play in a GW tournament. For me legends is good as I expected GW to finally kill all these units or just leave 9th legends on the page.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
I don’t get the complaint about legends, really. It has been hard to include FW units since 7th Edition when they were excluded from most formations that ruled the game. The FW indizes in 8th and 9th weren't great too and their Faqs were usually nothing substantial. So, for me the situation is exactly like it was before: some FW units won't have rules and need to stand in (Necrosius, Plague Hulk), others will probably look a little out of place once the codex comes in, but they're still normal units (Blight drones).
My gaming table is 4x6 and I never play in a GW tournament. For me legends is good as I expected GW to finally kill all these units or just leave 9th legends on the page.

Part of me thinks it's GW giving the middle finger to 3d printing. FW models were probably the most abused in that sense due to their cost. I get putting a model into legends if no one can get it anymore, but so many of these units can still be bought. I don't think it would have been a herculean effort even if it meant they condense the weapons on a decimator as an example.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
I don’t get the complaint about legends, really. It has been hard to include FW units since 7th Edition when they were excluded from most formations that ruled the game. The FW indizes in 8th and 9th weren't great too and their Faqs were usually nothing substantial. So, for me the situation is exactly like it was before: some FW units won't have rules and need to stand in (Necrosius, Plague Hulk), others will probably look a little out of place once the codex comes in, but they're still normal units (Blight drones).
My gaming table is 4x6 and I never play in a GW tournament. For me legends is good as I expected GW to finally kill all these units or just leave 9th legends on the page.

Cute story. I didn't run formations in 7th. Why? Because it made it difficult to use my Contemptors, Sicaran, Achilles, Fellblade and Dreadclaws (which I had been using since fething 4th edition).

Sometimes, it's better to run the models that you like, than what's more "competitive". Gw has sold us these models. They should fully support them. It's called "customer service".

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
I don’t get the complaint about legends, really. It has been hard to include FW units since 7th Edition when they were excluded from most formations that ruled the game. The FW indizes in 8th and 9th weren't great too and their Faqs were usually nothing substantial. So, for me the situation is exactly like it was before: some FW units won't have rules and need to stand in (Necrosius, Plague Hulk), others will probably look a little out of place once the codex comes in, but they're still normal units (Blight drones).
My gaming table is 4x6 and I never play in a GW tournament. For me legends is good as I expected GW to finally kill all these units or just leave 9th legends on the page.

Part of me thinks it's GW giving the middle finger to 3d printing. FW models were probably the most abused in that sense due to their cost. I get putting a model into legends if no one can get it anymore, but so many of these units can still be bought. I don't think it would have been a herculean effort even if it meant they condense the weapons on a decimator as an example.

Recasts too. Most Russian and Chinese recasters had far better quality control than FW with less warping, bubbles, misaligned molds and broken parts. Even people who could afford FW models would often get the recasts to save themselves the headaches of cleaning up the FW parts.

 Asmodai wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
I don’t get the complaint about legends, really. It has been hard to include FW units since 7th Edition when they were excluded from most formations that ruled the game. The FW indizes in 8th and 9th weren't great too and their Faqs were usually nothing substantial. So, for me the situation is exactly like it was before: some FW units won't have rules and need to stand in (Necrosius, Plague Hulk), others will probably look a little out of place once the codex comes in, but they're still normal units (Blight drones).
My gaming table is 4x6 and I never play in a GW tournament. For me legends is good as I expected GW to finally kill all these units or just leave 9th legends on the page.

Part of me thinks it's GW giving the middle finger to 3d printing. FW models were probably the most abused in that sense due to their cost. I get putting a model into legends if no one can get it anymore, but so many of these units can still be bought. I don't think it would have been a herculean effort even if it meant they condense the weapons on a decimator as an example.

Recasts too. Most Russian and Chinese recasters had far better quality control than FW with less warping, bubbles, misaligned molds and broken parts. Even people who could afford FW models would often get the recasts to save themselves the headaches of cleaning up the FW parts.

In my experience over here virtually all FW models in 40K games are recasts, and most of those are Dreadnoughts. In 8th they were simply more powerful than their mainstream equivalents so the incentive was there. Perhaps 2019/20 was a turning point in how the main GW 40K design team looked at FW as they took notice of what was going on in the gaming world outside their studio? Maybe GW saw that the prevalence of FW Dreads on tabletops that did not match with their FW sales data? In 9th it was evident that the main studio was trying to reign in FW competitively, and now they take the final step.

It could be just a case, though, that much of FW was just designed outside the 40K "frame" and they would like to simplify their balance efforts. So two friends are free to use those FW models in their own games (because friends can do what they like) but don't expect to bring them to tourneys or open-gaming night against strangers.

Yea I remember the chaplain dread frenzy at the end of 8th.