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It’s not so just more food, but also a better understanding of nutrition, and what a given body needs at different stages in life. Calcium, Iron, Oily Fish (Omega 3, if memory serves?), other goodies and which foods are good for getting those in you - as well as Vitamin D and how our bodies synthesise that, and for those of darker skin in northern climes, how to get that from supplements and diet.
It won’t turn someone from short parents into a towering giant like as genetics is still a significant factor. But a good diet can help the body achieve its full potential, whatever that might be.
It’s like when folk talk about increased life expectancy. Yes modern medicine helps, but a significant upping that, as it’s based off average or median lifespans, is the dramatic drop in infant mortality in many countries.
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Nowadays, many folks who reach the 7' mark tend to be rather thin or have to work not to be, Andre the Giant was noted to be an outlier in that he was naturally bulky.
That being said, since melee is noted as being such a heavy focus during the Unification Wars, this is likely the reason for a lot of the engineered bulk of Marines, which is mostly muscle mass. They would have fat reserves as that does do more than just give folks a jiggly midsection. The body does require at least a little fat to function properly at some point or another, or else we wouldn't have it.
In short, most of the difference in Marines would likely not be so much as height, but in mass as others have said above. Though if realistic terms, something like the Stormtroopers (For the life of me I can't think of, or spell, whatever GW calls them nowadays) would generally be more successful in the Marines role. More numerous, cheaper/easier to equip, and more importantly easier/cheaper to train without the horrendous failure rate given in the lore. Seriously, even though Stormtroopers are rarer than the standard Guard, they are still much more numerous than the Marines.
Now then, since I like Marines better anyway, I'm just gonna ignore them last three sentences
I’m always up for posting relevant Princess Bride clips
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/05/22 12:03:46
Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: It’s not so just more food, but also a better understanding of nutrition, and what a given body needs at different stages in life. Calcium, Iron, Oily Fish (Omega 3, if memory serves?), other goodies and which foods are good for getting those in you - as well as Vitamin D and how our bodies synthesise that, and for those of darker skin in northern climes, how to get that from supplements and diet.
It won’t turn someone from short parents into a towering giant like as genetics is still a significant factor. But a good diet can help the body achieve its full potential, whatever that might be.
It’s like when folk talk about increased life expectancy. Yes modern medicine helps, but a significant upping that, as it’s based off average or median lifespans, is the dramatic drop in infant mortality in many countries.
We have polish relatives, there is a noticeable difference between the average height of those that lived through WW2 and a couple of generations later. The later being much taller. This is generally attributed to better quality of food, and quantity, during early years.
It’s not scientific but it’s an interesting example.
given the general squalor and hardship of most 40K planetary populations, i;d honestly expect the average human height to go back down. most of the populace isn't going to be getting proper nutrition or sufficient food in general, and i'd imagine most of them end up a bit stunted in their physical growth as a result. this would go for both the hiveworlds and the various fuedal, feral, and deathworlds the Astartes tend to recruit from.
There was research on the effects of the blockade Germany was under during World War 1. They measured the height of children. The German children were significantly smaller than there pre-war and post-war counterparts.
My theory is that the geneseed takes over development from puberty and forces the body to go to the human maximum, with a few other tricks besides.
mithril2098 wrote: given the general squalor and hardship of most 40K planetary populations, i;d honestly expect the average human height to go back down. most of the populace isn't going to be getting proper nutrition or sufficient food in general, and i'd imagine most of them end up a bit stunted in their physical growth as a result. this would go for both the hiveworlds and the various fuedal, feral, and deathworlds the Astartes tend to recruit from.
Feral worlds probably have pretty tall populations- human height over time is quite interesting because it shows the quality of nutrition for the general population, in particular their protein intake. I think the lowest heights in England for the last 2000 years were in the height of industrial Victorian England, when the working class was treated and fed terribly. IIRC, heights were higher in the late medieval period, and noticeably higher in the Anglo-Saxon period where meat was a greater part of the diet.
Hiveworlds will have short people for the most part, other worlds will vary massively based on what kinds of foods are readily available and in what quantities.
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Tygre wrote: There was research on the effects of the blockade Germany was under during World War 1. They measured the height of children. The German children were significantly smaller than there pre-war and post-war counterparts.
My theory is that the geneseed takes over development from puberty and forces the body to go to the human maximum, with a few other tricks besides.
Yes. The ossmodular increases the size of the skeleton as part of its function.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/05/24 12:13:00
ChargerIIC wrote: If algae farm paste with a little bit of your grandfather in it isn't Grimdark I don't know what is.
Halfthor Bjornson is 6' 9" 400 lbs and so muscular it causes him to be a bit slower, something you wouldn't want when battling with melee weapons that aren't strength-based.
I always guessed marines were about 7.5 to 8 ft, primaris 8 to 8.5, and custodes around 9 ft, with most primarchs 10 ft or taller. Marines are to humans as primarchs are to marines. So a 7 ft marine throws that off if primarchs are 10+ ft.
The problem I have with the Emperor's height/size is that during the Crusade it's mentioned that Horus and Big E saved each other's life on numerous occasions while battling some orks. In a new book cover, it shows E-Money sitting on the top of a pyramid in the golden chair dwarfing even his custodes. Easily being 30 maybe 40 ft tall. How could a being that tall have his life in danger from anything that wasn't a planetary threat like an asteroid or supernova? I always thought the Emperor was around 12 ft as Ferrus Manus thought he could take the Emperor in a 2nd match of strength. Not very likely if E is 40 ft tall and primarchs are around 10-12 ft, or 9 ft if you're Alpharious/Omegon.
One last thing, GW apparently thinks marines skip leg day because I know first hand when you start getting really muscular your inner thighs rub together when you walk. Manspreading turns into an absolute must.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2023/05/29 01:50:52
The Emperor is not only a psyker, but the most powerful psyker who has ever lived. At the upper echelons of psychic powers they play havoc with the laws of physics the way a child might play with silly putty.
The Emperor can be almost whatever size he wants.
And as far Manus could never match the Emperor's strength because he's big: Bloodthirsters are much bigger than Primarchs. Sanguinius snapped Ka'Bhanda's spine over his knee. And in general Primarchs are essentially Greek demigods/superheroes who can achieve feats well out of proportion of their stature. Angron can shrug a mountain off of him, Vulkan can send Land Raiders sailing through the air with a hammer swing, etc. People don't like it but a lot of the written material makes them like this.
I mean, primarchs are a case all on their own. Being genetically crafted by some of the greatest minds known to humanity then augmented with warp power. There's a solid chance some if not most of the primachs are passively boosting their physical capabilities with warp nonsense. Think having the iron arm power on all the time.
As for a marine's hight.
Bullet proof armour does need a lot of thickness to be effective. And then there's the weird top ridge for re-enforcement or whatever. Add on their boot platforms which again, bullet, chemical resistant and have maglocks and such. I wouldn't be surprised if there is 4 to 6 extra inches of height just in their armour. The armour in fallout comes to mind, being essentially an exoskeleton covered in armour plating.
Void__Dragon wrote: The Emperor is not only a psyker, but the most powerful psyker who has ever lived. At the upper echelons of psychic powers they play havoc with the laws of physics the way a child might play with silly putty.
The Emperor can be almost whatever size he wants.
And as far Manus could never match the Emperor's strength because he's big: Bloodthirsters are much bigger than Primarchs. Sanguinius snapped Ka'Bhanda's spine over his knee. And in general Primarchs are essentially Greek demigods/superheroes who can achieve feats well out of proportion of their stature. Angron can shrug a mountain off of him, Vulkan can send Land Raiders sailing through the air with a hammer swing, etc. People don't like it but a lot of the written material makes them like this.
I agree and disagree. What was stopping him from being 200 ft tall? Wouldn't it be even more likely for a newfound human colony to surrender if that kind of person showed up? As stated if he was/is so powerful, why didn't he just crush Horus's ship with a snap of his fingers?
I've generally figured that either the emperor wasn't a giant, and he just used psyker tricks to make it seem like he was, or because of his psychic power, he could restructure his body to some degree to become larger or smaller as called for by the situation. but even that latter would have limitations.
Either would help explain why he could hide unseen for so long on earth while interacting with so many people. Memory alteration can't really be the only thing he was relying on.
Don't forget that both the emporer and malcador did tend to use psychic projections quite a bit. No reason why they couldn't scale such projections up and down when needed.
Essentially the big E was a scooby doo villian, a bunch of smoke and mirrors about to be unmasked.
If the primarchs shared his ability to create awe in humans and in particularity their gene sons (a psychic ability for sure) perhaps marines also have that minor trick, the transhuman dread we often hear of.
The biggest difference between a human and a space marine is not necessarily going to be the height, they'll be a head taller at most compared to a tall human, and possibly even shorter than the avg basketball player. The difference is going to be the girth. They're going to be much broader, more heavily muscled, etc...
But consider that 7' is huge. Like, enormous.
You know the guy who played Gregor Clegain in Game of Thrones, Hafþór. He is "only" 6 foot 9 inches.
Poor little Pedro Pascal there is only 5'11", which is pretty much average male height.
Even a space marine that was "only" 7 foot tall would be to Hafþór what he is to Pedro. The square cube law is powerful and only a few inches of height and girth means a monstrous increase in mass.
I think that the average for men is smaller than 5'11",(looks like 5'9" or sohttps://www.worlddata.info/average-bodyheight.php) but Hafþór would be who I would think of as far as mass goes more or less without enhancements. Got to remember that they are supposed to get an extra pituitary gland so that dude would be on the shorter end for Space Marines, but still in the category. For me I always thought that Space Marines were basically kids who would grow up to be linemen in Football(US) today only muscular not fat, and when they got inducted they got an enhanced puberty to give them a few inches in height more than what their genetics would normally allow for.
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Jamafore wrote: Humans, though, generally have gotten taller in more modern times due to the fact that food is a bit more east to come by, roughly starting in the Napoleonic Era (a bit of a side note, Napoleon was around 5'10 or so, so he was average if not a tad taller than average at the time. The bit about him being a midget is stubborn British propaganda from the time) so it is possible that the average height of humans in 40k would be a bit over 6'. The issue is that we don't know what the food provisions look like for the average human.
Nowadays, many folks who reach the 7' mark tend to be rather thin or have to work not to be, Andre the Giant was noted to be an outlier in that he was naturally bulky.
That being said, since melee is noted as being such a heavy focus during the Unification Wars, this is likely the reason for a lot of the engineered bulk of Marines, which is mostly muscle mass. They would have fat reserves as that does do more than just give folks a jiggly midsection. The body does require at least a little fat to function properly at some point or another, or else we wouldn't have it.
In short, most of the difference in Marines would likely not be so much as height, but in mass as others have said above. Though if realistic terms, something like the Stormtroopers (For the life of me I can't think of, or spell, whatever GW calls them nowadays) would generally be more successful in the Marines role. More numerous, cheaper/easier to equip, and more importantly easier/cheaper to train without the horrendous failure rate given in the lore. Seriously, even though Stormtroopers are rarer than the standard Guard, they are still much more numerous than the Marines.
Now then, since I like Marines better anyway, I'm just gonna ignore them last three sentences
marines out of armour are from 6'5" to 7'5" in the background with Polux, Ranulf, Lysane and Tyberos being the largest that I can remember all near the size equal size with a primarchs, Marines being "human" have the same variation in height a normal human would have, short ones, tall ones, broad ones, slim ones etc.
the edited picture with the 6' man and 7' marines does really well to show the difference and how a big a bulky 7' man is; I would even say that much larger would actually hinder their effectiveness, with bulky terminator armour being the biggest practical size for exploring space hulks, for example, and any bigger would be a major detriment.
I'm about 6'4" thanks to Mom's Norwegian "geneseed"- when I went to Gamesday LA 2005 and they had both the LOTR black orc and Space Marine statues out, I was about their size. Where I live in the southwest USA, I'm a giant. to quote Cheech Marin from "Once Upon a time in Mexico":
"People say he was the biggest Mexican they'd ever seen -- he was 5 9, 5 10 tops, it was no record, but bigger than most of us"
So I do run into sterotypical size problems where chairs are too small for me and the "Transhuman shock" where other believe just because I'm big that I'm slow.. If my legs are 3/4ths your whole body size OF COURSE I run faster!
Anyhoo- to use a real-world example, Gigantopitheicus the extinct huge Orangutan was around 7-12 feet tall and would most likely be a better model (until we find bigfoot) because even though apes have broader bones and more muscle mass, so should space marines.
It always amazed me seeing size difference in various media of humans/ marines/ orks as on the tabletop, there's a very small size change of only a few millimeters, but you scale that up and you get a green gorilla getting his klaw cut off by an old man with one eye!
That'd be scary, for multiple reasons- first off, Ogryns are not the smertest and I doubt the mental indoctrinations would take.
It's just been easier to recruit the brutes, as IF a marine was out of his armor and having a bad day, they'd be about equal in physical power if they were just wrastlin'. It'd be good if Ogryns could learn better martial techniques, but again- brain small.
Ogryns are both larger and physically stronger than Space Marines. They're just really stupid. Slower too.
An Ogryn like Nork can literally physically drag a chimera from one side of the battlefield to the other. I'd be shocked if anyone could show a Marine in normal power armour doing something like that.
Eh, maybe could if the Imperium/ Mechanicus tried REALLLY hard. Look what had to happen for a radical change in the Marine implantation procedures had to happen: A primarch had to come back and say "It's cool everyone, I know Cawl". Any "new" or experimental Biologis techniques would be considered "Heresy". Add to that the Mechanicus really doesn't KNOW how/ why their tech works- put the oils on it, pray, hit the red button, wait for start up sound, and depresseth the red button once more. Could be done- but that's a lot of time a resources to put into one project that may make literal frankenstiens.
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
And for what benefit?
Ogrun are extra strong, but also mentally... deficient. Even if you did make an Ogrun marine, he'd just be a slightly stronger marine that is also really dumb. Seems like just doing it the normal way is the more logical route. Why risk valuable geneseed for what isn't even really a benefit but rather a side-grade.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Keep in mind that the geneseed is also deliberately bioengineered to work with a "normal" human. It might not play nice with an abhuman's physiology. As far as I know it's never been addressed though.
While were on this wierd route of Abhuman marines, here's my take if they could be fully indoctrinated:
Votann/ Ratlings= Normal humans
Beastmen= Minotaurs (Is this why Asterion never takes off his armor?...)
Felinids= more World of Darkness were-cats than Anime catgirls.
Navigators= SUPER librarians!
While looking up abhumans, I did see/ remember that House Goliath on Necromunda are big boyz and though have been through a breeding program, it is said they are as big as a firstborn marine- so, the potential for a super-Marine could be possible.. But again, they're not really known for their brains.
Edit: Realised semi-abhumans can/ have been indoctrinated, ala the Salamanders/ Night Lords, so Goliath marines are looking more and more possible.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/06/26 14:31:57
It just seems like it would be easier overall. Ogryns seem much more compliant than humans, they should be able to handle the Rubicon much better while Humans need massive amounts of conditioning and then they still might corrupt for all that effort.
The marines could be left to Phobos armored stealth ops.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/06/26 22:13:07
Adeptekon wrote: It just seems like it would be easier overall. Ogryns seem much more compliant than humans, they should be able to handle the Rubicon much better while Humans need massive amounts of conditioning and then they still might corrupt for all that effort.
The marines could be left to Phobos armored stealth ops.
Yeah but you can't fix stupid. Even if the enhancement works and stacks multiplicatively and you end up with Ogryns that are as strong as hive tyrants you are putting a lot of time and resources into a soldier who ultimately can't outthink a child. This is horrible for Space Marines whose biggest selling point beyond all the gear and enhancements is that they are tremendously capable of operating independently. A squad of Raven Guard can operate behind enemy lines for months without assistance. Could a squad of Ogryn Marines do the same?
Cadre Coronal Afterglow w1;d0;l0 
