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Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle





In My Lab

Charax wrote:
People seem to be either skimming over, willfully ignoring or misunderstanding the "functionally" part of "functionally immortal"

Unless anyone can actually quote a source that says a space marine has died of old age, then yes, they are functionally immortal. They still suffer some effects of aging over time but they always die to external factors (combat, disease) rather than the aging itself. Some chapters age slower than others, like the Blood Angels

Brother Gravius, from the novel Salamander, was present on Istvaan V and survived through to M41, making him 10,000+ years old and he survived without the aid of a Dreadnought stasis casket or any external aid. Yes, he's described as ancient and decrepit, possibly insane, but still alive. When he finally died it was a mercy kill from an apothecary, so even after ten thousand years we have an example of an ordinary Space Marine living without external intervention for ten millennia. He's nowhere near combat-ready, and would likely have died long ago if he'd stayed in action, but once you remove any external factors, he's immortal.

And that state might as well be death to a Marine.
Whereas with Papa Nurgle, you get to be hale and hearty (if a little rotund) for even longer!

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






Charax wrote:
People seem to be either skimming over, willfully ignoring or misunderstanding the "functionally" part of "functionally immortal"

Unless anyone can actually quote a source that says a space marine has died of old age, then yes, they are functionally immortal. They still suffer some effects of aging over time but they always die to external factors (combat, disease) rather than the aging itself.

Always dying to external factors does not make one functionally immortal. It just means you got killed before you died naturally.

If I create a Logan's run society and everyone is automatically killed by the age of 28, that doesn't mean all the inhabitants are "functionally immortal".

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





I’ve always taken “functionally immortal” to mean that the aging process doesn’t result in death, that is you won’t die from “old age” but could still be killed or succumb to disease etc.

As for whether or not space marines are functionally immortal, IIRC it’s in-universe speculation as to whether space marines just live for a really really long time or if they are functionally immortal, and IIRC there aren’t any recorded cases of a space marines dying from old age, so it’s not really possible to say one way or the other, but for practical purposes and on the timescale of human lives the two are much the same.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2023/06/02 08:54:51


 
   
Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






I can't believe multiple people have got bent out of shape because I used "functionally" instead of "essentially" or "basically".
   
Made in gb
Leader of the Sept







 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
[snip]

Can anyone point us as a collective to a single, Codex or Black Library source, where an Astartes dies of old age, and not through violence?


Is cloud Runner from Deathwing not staring down natural end-of-life, with the other squad members that survived the events of the book having passed naturally?

This might be too early a reference, though, and superseded by later iterations of what marines kind of are.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, hah! same converation, from 8 years ago

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/669577.page

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/06/02 14:46:35


Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!

Terranwing - w3;d1;l1
51st Dunedinw2;d0;l0
Cadre Coronal Afterglow w1;d0;l0 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






 Gert wrote:
I can't believe multiple people have got bent out of shape because I used "functionally" instead of "essentially" or "basically".

It'd make little difference to me. My beef is with the word "immortal" being in play when there are specific references to different strains of geneseed having different lifespans. "Longevity" implies death, and it's a bold assumption to jump to "immortal" simply because the usual case is that Marines die in battle.

Even being able to live to 1000 years, as many Blood Angels do, does not make a being anywhere near immortal, but simply just long-lived for a human. An Eldar would chuckle at the use of the word "immortal". A Necron Lord would have a mighty belly-laugh, personality permitting.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






 Insectum7 wrote:
It'd make little difference to me. My beef is with the word "immortal" being in play when there are specific references to different strains of geneseed having different lifespans. "Longevity" implies death, and it's a bold assumption to jump to "immortal" simply because the usual case is that Marines die in battle.

Even being able to live to 1000 years, as many Blood Angels do, does not make a being anywhere near immortal, but simply just long-lived for a human. An Eldar would chuckle at the use of the word "immortal". A Necron Lord would have a mighty belly-laugh, personality permitting.

The Blood Angels being described as "long-lived" was in the 9th Ed Supplement however, numerous other sources have shown that longevity isn't unique to those of Sanguinius' lineage.
On the side of "immortality", we have Loken discussing the concerns of the Astartes for potentially living forever through peacetime despite being weapons, the Salamander Gravius who was ten thousand years old before he was given the Emperor's Mercy after going insane from isolation, and various non-Blood Angel Astartes who have lived as long if not longer than certain Blood Angels.

And again, nobody is saying that Astartes are actually immortal just that in comparison to the rest of their species, they might as well be which is why "functionally" was placed in front. Nobody brought up the Necrons or Aeldari because the topic of conversation is to do with Astartes and it has no relevance.
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






^Don't use the word "immortal" then, as it means something other than what you are saying. Easy solution.

From a human reference point, Space Marines are long-lived, some longer than others. There are other entities that live much longer, so using the term "immortal" is kind of a joke.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






You seem to misunderstand language then because see when you add words in front of other words it can change the meaning of the latter word. These are called adjectives.
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle





In My Lab

 Gert wrote:
You seem to misunderstand language then because see when you add words in front of other words it can change the meaning of the latter word. These are called adjectives.
If your words don't get the message you wanted across, change your words.

Loyalist Marines are not immortal. They have a lifespan. It's long, relative to humans, but it's limited.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in gb
Pestilent Plague Marine with Blight Grenade





and yet nobody can ever seem to provide any proof that it's limited. Whole lotta words and statements being flung around but not many quotes or sources to back them up, just conjecture and supposition

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Charax absolutely nailed it.
 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






 Gert wrote:
You seem to misunderstand language then because see when you add words in front of other words it can change the meaning of the latter word. These are called adjectives.
"Immortal" is a pretty specific term. "Functional" is vague and requires further definition or frame of reference. From the perspective of a Necron Lord (or astronomer, geologist, etc.) the idea that Space Marines are immortal in any way is laughable, even if you stick "functional" in front of it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Charax wrote:
and yet nobody can ever seem to provide any proof that it's limited. Whole lotta words and statements being flung around but not many quotes or sources to back them up, just conjecture and supposition

We have passages in SM codexes regarding relative longevity. This very strongly implies death. The assumption of "immortality" is the claim that requires the burden of proof.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/06/02 18:53:45


And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in gb
Leader of the Sept







https://www.quora.com/What-is-functionally-immortal-in-works-of-fiction#:~:text=Functionally%20immortal%20is%20a%20term,Continue%20reading

Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!

Terranwing - w3;d1;l1
51st Dunedinw2;d0;l0
Cadre Coronal Afterglow w1;d0;l0 
   
Made in ca
Mekboy Hammerin' Somethin'





Sedona, Arizona

 Gert wrote:
I can't believe multiple people have got bent out of shape because I used "functionally" instead of "essentially" or "basically".


First time on the internet?

   
Made in us
Banelord Titan Princeps of Khorne




Noctis Labyrinthus

Charax wrote:
and yet nobody can ever seem to provide any proof that it's limited. Whole lotta words and statements being flung around but not many quotes or sources to back them up, just conjecture and supposition


I already alluded to it but sure, here's the excerpt.

"Slowly Hathor Maat descended into the sixth enumeration, letting his disgust ebb as the true genius of the Emperor’s design opened up to him. In an age of peace, a legionary might endure for millennia or more, but he would not live forever.

The immortality of the Legions was a myth. Eventually the biological mechanisms sustaining them would fail and the horrifying descent into decrepitude would begin."

- The Crimson King

As for the use of "functionally":

Dictionary
Definitions from Oxford Languages · Learn more
func·tion·al·ly
adverb
1.
in a way that relates to the purpose or use of something.
"the parish clergy was socially and functionally differentiated"
2.
in a way that is practical and useful, rather than attractive.
"a functionally designed two-bedroom apartment"

Marines dying before old age eventually kills them is not "functionally" immortal because it is not immortal at all. If I killed myself right now I am not "functionally" immortal just because I died before old age killed me.

Dorian Gray is "functionally" immortal because although he can die (and does at the end of the novel) he will not die unless he looks at his portrait. Dracula is "functionally" immortal because he can live forever as long as he isn't staked and decapitated. Necrons are functionally immortal because if you destroy their bodies they just have their consciousness/data uploaded into a new body. Compare to something like DC's Swamp Thing which is about as close as possible to being absolutely immortal as you can get.

Space Marines are not immortal, in an absolute or "functional" sense, because eventually if all else fails old age will kill them. And by 40k standards it won't even take particularly long. Eldar, Necrons, Daemons, and Orks (I think, though admittedly their average life expectancy is even lower than a Marine's) all have far longer lifespans than Marines do.
   
Made in gb
Pestilent Plague Marine with Blight Grenade





Finally we can stop talking in circles now we have some actual evidence

So Marines are not immortal, they do suffer the effects of aging and can theoretically die of old age, but none canonically have yet.
We have multiple examples of marines living over a thousand years with or without enhancement, and suffering some form of degradation (either physical, mental or both)

So Marines would have a reason to fall to nurgle to offset the effects of entropy (to attempt to drag this thread kicking and screaming back to the topic)



 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Charax absolutely nailed it.
 
   
Made in gb
Junior Officer with Laspistol





The Shire(s)

Apparently the timescale for Astartes death purely from old age is >10000 years, so I think actually on a comparable timeframe to post-Fall Eldar. The physical degredation in the meantime looks much more debilitating though, and likely accounts for the differences between Chapters of "longevity"- a weakening Marine is going to be more likely to die in combat and this apparently happens slower for Blood Angels. I think Craftworld Eldar slowly become more crystalline over such a timeframe?

For reference, the theoretical natural human maximum (without 40k rejuvenat) is thought to be about 125 years (based on cell division apparently), and death from just old age is exceptionally rare for humans. Most humans get weakened by old age and die from something else, like atherosclerotic disease or pneumonia or cancer, or develop degenerative conditions like dementia. Sometimes though, a very elderly person just simply stops and dies of old age itself.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2023/06/03 09:44:30


 ChargerIIC wrote:
If algae farm paste with a little bit of your grandfather in it isn't Grimdark I don't know what is.
 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






 Haighus wrote:
Apparently the timescale for Astartes death purely from old age is >10000 years . . .

If the source for 10000 years is Black Library, I wouldn't put too much faith in it. Black Library has given us Marines twice as tall as a human and a 60 mph Marine march. Expect flourished exaggerations and exceptional circumstances.

Chaplain Cassius of the UM is described as old for a Marine. He's not yet 400.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka







Dante and, I think, Santa Grimnar are described as old for Marines - what indicators do we have for how old Calgar or Azrael are?

2021-4 Plog - Here we go again... - my fifth attempt at a Dakka PLOG

My Pile of Potential - updates ongoing...

Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.


 Kanluwen wrote:
This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.

Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...

tneva82 wrote:
You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something... 
   
Made in gb
Junior Officer with Laspistol





The Shire(s)

Not counting dreadnoughts below.

Calgar was over 200 pre-Great Rift. Cassius was the oldest Ultramarine in the Chapter at ~400.

Grimnar is somewhere in the region of 700, with Ulrik the Slayer being the oldest living Space Wolf beyond this.

Dante is ~1100.

Death from old age is very different to average life expectancy. Very, very few real humans die from old age itself.

Marines clearly feel the effects of aging- this is described in multiple sources. They slow down, grow weaker, senses dull (it is unknown if they become more susceptible to disease or heal slower*). These all make the marine more likely to die in combat. Blood Angels may simply degrade slower than, say, Ultramarines leading to a longer average lifespan, but it is extremely unclear if the lifespan of theoretical non-combat marines would differ much between Chapters. We know of one Salamander lasting 10000 years without expiring from old age**. This is an order of magnitude greater than Sigismund or Dante and suggests death from old age itself happens at an enormous timescale for Marines, much later than the point their bodies can no longer keep up with the demands of their intensive role.

The biggest challenge in interpreting this, both within lore and for us discussing outside the setting, is that marines do an inherently dangerous job with no retirement plan, so the vast majority die in violent ways.


*I cannot personally recall any marine deaths from natural disease (only warp diseases like the blessings of Nurgle), although some toxins are sufficiently lethal to overcome marine biology. I also do not recall any mention of chronic terminal diseases occurring naturally (i.e, not caused by warp effects like the Hrud entropy fields or caused by unusually severe exposures like massive radiation doses).

**Yes, from Black Library, although the exceptional aspect is the enforced lack of combat for so long and I'd argue the source is consistent with no other mentioned marine death from old age.


 ChargerIIC wrote:
If algae farm paste with a little bit of your grandfather in it isn't Grimdark I don't know what is.
 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






Dying of old age is certainly different from dying of occupational hazard, true. But given the differences in longevity between geneseed strains it would also suggest that the fullest extents of lifespan are also different. Moreover, Black Library is not at all limited to one "exceptional" attribute for its characters either.

So yeah, there's little reason to assume that this one ~10000 year old Marine somehow represents the expected "natural longevity" of an average Marine.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
 
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