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I understand DG lacking in fast attack options such as bikes or jump packs for the factions gameplay id as much as fluff but yeah, cant see why no havocs makes sense.

Even if you didn't want DG to have HW Havoc unit, there'd be nothing preventing a special (or plague?) weapon version of the unit, surely?

I'd rather have 4 god specific Codizes +1 undivided with everything in each from traitor guardsmen to beastmen, cultists, daemons, CSM, Dark Mech and Knights.
Someone may count if you'd need more pages/ datasheets for that than for the Space Marines codex.

As others have said: good idea to break them out, poor execution. I'm still keen for EC getting (hopefully...) broken out in 10th.

I guess the overall point is that the Legion Codices were an opportunity to flesh these forces out, to expand them with a host of new units that fit with that Legions doctrine. But, rather these Codices coming with an expansion, they are mostly a contraction (DG got away with more actualy new units than the other two, to be fair), and thus by playing your chosen army you end up with less than you had when you were part of the Chaos Codex proper.

(Reminds me about a week or two ago someone was adamant that World Eaters hadn't really lost anything... where do these people come from?)

 Dysartes wrote:
Even if you didn't want DG to have HW Havoc unit, there'd be nothing preventing a special (or plague?) weapon version of the unit, surely?

That's the way 3.5 did it. You could have Havocs, but special weapons only. I had three - two with 4x Melta and one with 4x Plasma. Threw 'em in my plagued Rhinos and ran up the table hoping for the best.

EviscerationPlague wrote:
... so why does "Plague Surgeon" need to be a specific entry? Because it has a name?

Because it's fun? Ever consider that? There should be a Plague Surgeon and a Berzerker-Surgeon as two distinct entities with their own minis because it's fun. But you're the guy who thinks that there should only be 1 Marine Codex, and sub-factions shouldn't be a thing, so why are you even discussing this?

 Marshal Loss wrote:
As others have said: good idea to break them out, poor execution. I'm still keen for EC getting (hopefully...) broken out in 10th.

I doubt EC breaks out until Fulgrim is due - so I'd be surprised to see it in 10th. But I wouldn't be surprised to see some Kharn/Typhus/etc level characters come out along with a resurgence for Fabius Bile.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
But you're the guy who thinks that there should only be 1 Marine Codex, and sub-factions shouldn't be a thing, so why are you even discussing this?

Why would someone discuss a specific topic about which a question is posed, inviting discussion, on a forum for discussing topics, if they don't agree with you..? C'mon...

 Lord Damocles wrote:
Why would someone discuss a specific topic about which a question is posed, inviting discussion, on a forum for discussing topics, if they don't agree with you..? C'mon...

There's "They should all be in one Codex" and then there's "There shouldn't even be different factions/all Marines should be the same".

Previously I would have thought two books sufficient but I think three would be best. One for the God Marked Traitor Legions, one for the Legions who disdain the Chaos Gods, and lastly Renegades and Heretics for everyone else who falls between the cracks.

That said, we got separate codexes for certain premiere traitor legions and I don't foresee that cat going back into the bag. As H.B.M.C. noted these should have been used to flesh them out (and I'd say they did a great job with DG) but its been very underwhelming with 1k Sons and World Eaters. I'm sure overtime they will start to become bloated with models just like Loyalists though

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
... so why does "Plague Surgeon" need to be a specific entry? Because it has a name?

Because it's fun? Ever consider that? There should be a Plague Surgeon and a Berzerker-Surgeon as two distinct entities with their own minis because it's fun. But you're the guy who thinks that there should only be 1 Marine Codex, and sub-factions shouldn't be a thing, so why are you even discussing this?

And it's reasoning like yours we have 10 entries for Marine Captains. It's not necessary.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Lord Damocles wrote:
Why would someone discuss a specific topic about which a question is posed, inviting discussion, on a forum for discussing topics, if they don't agree with you..? C'mon...

There's "They should all be in one Codex" and then there's "There shouldn't even be different factions/all Marines should be the same".

And Marines should mostly be the same. Blood Angels don't need a separate codex because Death Company exist on top of other Chapters having Crazy Marines in their fluff (which is really just what Death Company ARE). That's worthy of a new unit entry, not a whole codex.

For someone so "concerned" about stripping options, you really don't get it.

To be picky, it's 8 characters and 7 units including those that got brought back as part of range rotation.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
... so why does "Plague Surgeon" need to be a specific entry? Because it has a name?

Because it's fun? Ever consider that? There should be a Plague Surgeon and a Berzerker-Surgeon as two distinct entities with their own minis because it's fun. But you're the guy who thinks that there should only be 1 Marine Codex, and sub-factions shouldn't be a thing, so why are you even discussing this?

And it's reasoning like yours we have 10 entries for Marine Captains. It's not necessary.

Most of the different Captain datasheets around at present are there to cover different types of armour or different significant equipment (such as bikes or jump packs), to allow GW to be as clear as possible when it comes to keywords and statistics. It also stops the options list for the Captain getting to ridiculous lengths for each unit - though I'd certainly prefer a general Armory, possibly with flags as for what can be taken by a proper Space Marine, what can be taken by a Steroid Boi, and what can be taken by both.

The outlier here is the "Captain with Master-Crafted Heavy Bolt Rifle", who really should just be an equipment option for the standard Primaris Captain (note that I don't have my copy of the 'dex to hand, but I think that's what he's a variant from). That's a datasheet that could be merged and I don't think anyone would bat an eyelid.

The current options are the Primaris Captain, Power Armour Captain, Terminator Captain, Gravis Captain, and Gravis Captain with MC Heavy Boltrife. The latter two were where the issue of excess datasheets is often highlighted as the only difference between the two units was the Bolstorm Gauntlet and Boltrifle.

Hmm. When it comes to subfaction rules for CSM, I'm not all that interested in new units per se so much as I'm interested in adding a splash of flavor to existing units and some sort of army-wide (detachment level?) mechanic to change up how the army plays.

So my Thousand Sons, for instance. I don't really need special thousand sons havocs and thousand sons raptors, etc. I just want psyker sergeants, a (mandatory?) way to represent my non-sergeants being rubricae, and maybe something like the cabal points system.

With my Alpha Legion (which, tbf are using RG/DW rules these days), I want a detachment rule and maybe some stratagems to represent the idea that we're springing a trap. Maybe a custom cultist unit (or the ability to ally in IG) to represent the idea that we took the time to train some of our cultists to be more effective.

For my Slaaneshi marines, I just want the ability to stick noise marines and daemonettes in the same army, and a detachment or wargear rule for combat drugs would be nice. (Dark Pacts can be refluffed as combat drugs pretty easily, actually.)

I don't think I really *need* dedicated splats for the aspects of my chaos armies that I want represented. I feel like the asks I have for each of the factions above could each fit onto a single page of rules. Basically just a detachment rule and a few lines saying, "You can take these additional options on these units, and you must spend X extra points on such and such units to represent that they're rubricae," or whatever.

EDIT: And the same applies to loyalists too. DW and GK are a bit more complicated, but SW and BA could probably have their meaningful rules options put on a single page each, and then include the handful of datasheets for units that absolutely, positively need to be unique units instead of just being rolled into generic datasheets.

Fundamental problem with splitting off the Marked Legions to their own books: "Can I have Tzeentch Havocs? No, because GW hasn't made a Thousand Sons-specific Havoc kit? Um...okay?"

I kind of want to say yes. But also…no.

I’m not against variety, but I am dubious of variety for variety’s sake.

The big four, each being utterly dedicated to a Specific God end up with flavour of their own. But, and I’m not just saying this to wind folk up, the other 5 just aren’t quite as divergent.

By the same coin, the common or garden variety Loyalist Marines really didn’t need sub-Codecies of their own. Space Wolves and Black Templars? No argument there. Both significantly divergent from Norm. But….Blood and Dark Angels? Outside of three or four units each? The divergence just isn’t pronounced.

Of course, I’ve long argued that Chaos is so….chaotic in terms of military organisation, just make it a Proper Fat Old Codex. Single Codex covering Daemons, CSM, Traitor Guard, Traitor Knights, Lost and the Damned.

To hell with “but someone will just cheese their list”. All in one. One massive tome of potential with as few restraints as possible.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
... so why does "Plague Surgeon" need to be a specific entry? Because it has a name?

Because it's fun? Ever consider that? There should be a Plague Surgeon and a Berzerker-Surgeon as two distinct entities with their own minis because it's fun. But you're the guy who thinks that there should only be 1 Marine Codex, and sub-factions shouldn't be a thing, so why are you even discussing this?

I think the "no, there should be a complete separate range of unique sculpts of every model for every different Marine Legion!" would be a more defensible position if, say, Warp Spiders weren't still resin dumped into metal molds originally made in the late '90s.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Fundamental problem with splitting off the Marked Legions to their own books: "Can I have Tzeentch Havocs? No, because GW hasn't made a Thousand Sons-specific Havoc kit? Um...okay?"

You can play The Scourged instead if you want Tzeentch havocs. I personally feel that Thousand Sons infantry heavy weapons solution should be sorcerers turning tanks into rust but we aren't really getting that either so what the hell do I know.

 Dysartes wrote:
Even if you didn't want DG to have HW Havoc unit, there'd be nothing preventing a special (or plague?) weapon version of the unit, surely?

What would be difference between special weapon havocs and plague marines?

 AnomanderRake wrote:
I think the "no, there should be a complete separate range of unique sculpts of every model for every different Marine Legion!" would be a more defensible position if, say, Warp Spiders weren't still resin dumped into metal molds originally made in the late '90s.

That's almost a non-sequitur. I really fail to see what one has to do with the other.

 Jidmah wrote:
What would be difference between special weapon havocs and plague marines?

Plaguespewers and their special unique weapons that regular CSMs can't get.

Ah, I guess I wasn't being very clear, I'll rephrase it.

If there was a unit of havocs in Codex: DG for 9th edition with access to nothing but the special weapons of old, how would it be different from a unit of plague marines?

 Jidmah wrote:
If there was a unit of havocs in Codex: DG for 9th edition with access to nothing but the special weapons of old, how would it be different from a unit of plague marines?

Greater concentration of firepower. Naturally a Havoc unit would have access to more special weapons than the standard Plague Marine squad (putting aside the current ghastly PM dataslate). Thinking back to when there were such a thing as "Plague Marine Havocs", they could get 4 special weapon, whereas regular Plague Marine squads could get 2. I'd argue that they should've been allowed heavy bolters as well (and there's two pieces of art in the 3.5 'Dex that show this), but that's a different conversation.

EviscerationPlague wrote:
And it's reasoning like yours we have 10 entries for Marine Captains. It's not necessary.

Dysartes already covered why there are so many entries, and the benefits and drawbacks of such a system. Honestly though I think they could put, for example, Captain, Captain w/Jump Pack, Captain w/Bike and Captain w/Terminator Armour onto the same sheet.

Moreover I've made fun of the ludicrous unnecessary dataslates in the past (again, the Captain w/Heavy Bolt Rifle being among the most unnecessary entries in the book, as Dysartes pointed out above). But at the same time, I'd never just say "This is Generic X, but you can pretend its actually a Blood Angel Whatsitdoodah or a Space Wolf Wolfenwolfwolf if you just paint it differently, turn your head to the side and squint!". I think there should be both aesthetic and mechanical differences between types of Marines.

It's one thing to have 10 different Captain entries because each one has a slightly different hat. It's another to differentiate between Chapter- or Legion-specific unique units.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Blood Angels don't need a separate codex because Death Company exist on top of other Chapters having Crazy Marines in their fluff (which is really just what Death Company ARE). That's worthy of a new unit entry, not a whole codex.

At what point does something become different enough for you to accept it as not just being 'counts as'. And at what point do you acknowledge that people like to have differences with their armies, and don't always want everything to be squashed towards the middle? Do we go to the full extreme and just have one Marine book and special rules to show Chapters/Legions?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
For someone so "concerned" about stripping options, you really don't get it.

The only thing I don't get is why you're so anti-fun. When you have more options, you can just ignore the ones you like. When everything is consolidated, you're stuck with just what's there. As someone who went through the 3.5 to 4th Edition Chaos transition, I can tell you it sure as feth ain't fun.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
I think the "no, there should be a complete separate range of unique sculpts of every model for every different Marine Legion!" would be a more defensible position if, say, Warp Spiders weren't still resin dumped into metal molds originally made in the late '90s.

That's almost a non-sequitur. I really fail to see what one has to do with the other.

Pretty sure Rake is pointing out that GW only puts out so many models/books within a given timeframe. The more units GW puts out, the longer it presumably takes for a given kit to be refreshed. Thus you end up with warp spiders that are still in finecast using a pose from the days of pewter.

We could give every chapter and legion their own unique devastator kit with unique cute little special rules to show how they're ever so slightly different from the other devastators. But for many of us, that would be seen as a frustrating move because it would mean that each of those special devastator kits took up a release slot that could have been filled by updated warp spiders or noise marines or what have you. I'm sure you'd be having fun with your Black Templars-specific devastator model, but I'd still be wondering where my plastic spiders are at.

On the other hand, if you just provide a variety of rules that can all be used by the same datasheet (similar to how exarchs and harlequins can choose one of several special rules), then you can give anyone with a given model something shiny to enjoy regardless of subfaction.

I don't think the two are mutually exclusive.

Yes, we should have new Warp Spider models by now because Warp Spiders have only ever had one kit and it's frustrating that they simply ignore them. But that's true of the Eldar range in general - they have the literal oldest model part GW still makes (Baharroth's wings! ) - and should be updated.

That doesn't really take away from the fact that there are differences between types of Marines that should be represented both physically with models and in-game with rules. You don't have to sacrifice one to get the other.

GW's unwillingness to finish the Eldar revamp (hopefully when the next book hits we can get the missing things - remaining Phoenix Hawks, Fire Dragons, Scorpions, Warp Spiders and something else I'm sure I'm forgetting... a new Vyper?), but as it stands I don't think that having a Plague-Surgeon and a Berzerker-Surgeon as two distinct units with different miniatures prevents that from happening.

Or GW could do the unthinkable and make a kit that could become either a Plague-Surgeon or a Bezerker-Surgeon or even a Noise-Surgeon. All they have to do is have maybe 3 sets of arms and 3 heads in a kit with a torso and legs and one appropriately sized base. Then they would be satisfying all the people who want individual Surgeons and all the people who would like to see fewer skus.

No, it... really does. Having more marines on the release schedule means less non-marines on the release schedule. That is how time works.

I think part of the issue is that the God Marked Legions (or at the very least the TS, DG and WE) are pretty much Legions of Hats.

Pretty much all DG are Plague Marines, all WE are Berzerkers, all TS are Rubricae led by Sorcerers. Although it seems the Emperor Children kinda avoided that fate with only "many" of them becoming Noise Marines.

 Tyran wrote:
Pretty much all DG are Plague Marines, all WE are Berzerkers, all TS are Rubricae led by Sorcerers. Although it seems the Emperor Children kinda avoided that fate with only "many" of them becoming Noise Marines.

You're right. And that's why these Legion-specific books needed to expand upon the concepts of original Legion. Death Guard got this, for the most part. 1KSons didn't (they just ported over all the Tzeentch AoS Beastmen) and World Eaters were even more poorly underserved.

They had the chance - dare I say it, the opportunity - to split these Legions out and make them into something substantive, something creative, something vibrant and, well, we all know what GW does with opportunities.

I mean we ended up with a unit called Eightbound that come in boxes of 3 and units of 6. How did that pass muster???

 Arachnofiend wrote:
No, it... really does. Having more marines on the release schedule means less non-marines on the release schedule. That is how time works.

Yeah... I'm not so sure about that. I think they're going to make the Marines they're going to make, and I don't think they stop making other things to make more Marines.

Their production limitations is certainly impacted by that - why things go out of stock more quickly - but not the design process.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
Or GW could do the unthinkable and make a kit that could become either a Plague-Surgeon or a Bezerker-Surgeon or even a Noise-Surgeon. All they have to do is have maybe 3 sets of arms and 3 heads in a kit with a torso and legs and one appropriately sized base. Then they would be satisfying all the people who want individual Surgeons and all the people who would like to see fewer skus.

Given the aesthetic differences between the three, I doubt that would work, especially with Nurgle-related units.





And Commissar Calgar returns!

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
If there was a unit of havocs in Codex: DG for 9th edition with access to nothing but the special weapons of old, how would it be different from a unit of plague marines?

Greater concentration of firepower. Naturally a Havoc unit would have access to more special weapons than the standard Plague Marine squad (putting aside the current ghastly PM dataslate). Thinking back to when there were such a thing as "Plague Marine Havocs", they could get 4 special weapon, whereas regular Plague Marine squads could get 2. I'd argue that they should've been allowed heavy bolters as well (and there's two pieces of art in the 3.5 'Dex that show this), but that's a different conversation.

Errrrr....yeah? But I've always found the "no heavy weapons for Nurgle" restriction silly (made even more so by the current 30k Death Guard rules that I mentioned up thread). So why not just give Death Guard proper Havocs (and allow Havocs to take special weapons again )?

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Errrrr....yeah? But I've always found the "no heavy weapons for Nurgle" restriction silly (made even more so by the current 30k Death Guard rules that I mentioned up thread). So why not just give Death Guard proper Havocs (and allow Havocs to take special weapons again )?

Like I said: What they could/should be armed with is a different conversation, and I don't necessarily disagree with you (and neither does GW, apparently, given the weapons they added to Plague Marines at the start of 8th). However, I was just answering Jid's question about what a Death Guard Havoc Squad would look like with those parameters (access to special weapons).

Honestly, it's not the world's sexiest squad - it was just two meltas, two plasmas, and a cool looking Champion - and it doesn't have the same allure as, say, giant plague Terminators with huge scythes, but in removing it I feel it was another area where the faction shrunk, and something they could redo. Now, if GW were more flexible, and didn't have to have a specific kit for the unit, and we could do it with regular Plague Marines, then wonderful, but they don't work like that these days. I mean, remember when Death Guard Terminator Lords/Sorcerer Lords didn't get some of the DG rules because they weren't actually DG miniatures, just transplanted regular CSM minis? That's the mentality we're facing now.