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Overread wrote:

 AduroT wrote:

 Overread wrote:

Warcaster didn't take off in a big way and has been even quieter with news than Warmachine has (a sad thing, but Warcaster was impressive in coming out during Covid without many issues and yet it just never got any traction)

Which is a shame because it’s a pretty great game. Very dynamic play and quite different from Warmachine/Warhammer.

Honestly I'm shocked they didn't port some of the ideas into Warmachine. The biggest problem skirmish games have is having niche models that never see table time as you make the armies bigger. Warcasters living sideboard during games is a fantastic way to allow you to build an army that includes niche and situational models that might only see the table now and then, without crippling your army. That it also allows you to bring dead units back to the table to use again also opens up a whole avenue of options and sacrificial tactics that regular wargames, again, often outright shun (because you often win on kills).

I thought it was a very smart system that included a lot of great ideas and its a huge shame it hasn't taken off. Personally I think its stuck as PP doesn't want to market nor sell metal models any more but they've not put that game onto the 3D print production system. So they just aren't doing anything with it - which coupled to PP's very quiet marketing means its deadin the water.

Kickstarer is usually the biggest marketing tool and promotes its self if its a bit company. But kick starter also puts a hell of a lot of people off and PPs plastic would help that along

aphyon wrote:One can be a fan of the models, and the game system/universe without liking the company or where they are currently taking the game. i feel the same about PP/WM/H as i do about GW and 40K. i hate everything about where the game is at/is going, the change in mechanics and aesthetics for PP specifically so i do what i did with 40K. freeze it where it was good and build a player community around that.

Our FLGS is a very lucky place. we have some players who play multiple days during the week and we have an all day game day every Saturday on top of that. we have a couple dozen regular and semi-regular players who play just about everything. including over a dozen players for circa 5th ed 40K and about 10 (many with more than 1 army/faction) who still actively play WM/H MK III

Without an active and positive community i think any game system will die no matter how good it is.

Battlettech disagrees. Grognard bile sustained that game for decades. Nothing ever dies any more, its all zombies until a desperate reboot comes along. Even in our hobby.

 Shrapnelsmile wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:

Big part of that is that PP caved to its existing player base demands instead of holding to its guns. Originally PP intended 50pts to be the competitive format for the first year so as to enable ease of entry for new players. The existing community is myopic and self centered and demanded 100 pts for it's sameness to the established mk3 75 point standard, which most people outside the core community otherwise consider too large.

This is unfortunate. How did it transpire? Play testers and established event organizers complained or something?

So, PP has always had a bit of a problem of listening to its fans. I'll post a long long explanation of why this a problem for them in a bit, but at the moment I'm going to focus on the most recent issues with MK4.

MK4 is not really meant to appease the current fanbase. It's clearly designed as a fresh start, with even the legacy content being full of compromises for existing players. Where it makes sense is making the game enticing for new players. The new rules just work better when played with smaller armies on tables with far denser terrain. Everything about it is more modular and easier to transport and the limited SKUs are probably too large to be as enticing as they need to be, but really do provide you with a full experience with meaningful options in a way that prior starters have completely failed to.

So what's gone wrong? Well, more than anything, they've failed to deliver the new product on time. They keep promising more and more stuff, but have yet to stabilize their release schedule, which is at least 4 months behind and keeps slipping even after stores receive solicitations and preorder dates. This has largely left the new armies in limbo, with Cygnar and Orgoth finally having their 75 point expansion hit shelves literally days ago. Whatever hype was built up for them has long dwindled and the feeling like the game still hasn't really launched yet has people playing wait and see.

And that leads us to what I feel will likely be the mortal wound for the whole thing, which is scenario design. Steamroller was once upon a time a pretty groundbreaking system, but it really hasn't kept up with the times in the last.... 15? years. It's been refined, but more than anything its been stretched to accommodate the ever increasing size of the game. Even in the heyday of mk2, it was designed in a way that demanded full size armies to cover all the objectives with no real way to scale down without the scenario just kind of collapsing. MK4 wants to be a smaller game and early on PP pushed some wildly different (and admittedly kind of terrible) scenario ideas, but when they flopped when presented at WFW to the hardest of hardcore crowd, PP balked and just rereleased SR2022 again. These scenarios are just terrible at anything less than 100 points. A lot of them are dependent on all of MK3s free solos and barely even work at 100 points in MK4.

So you've got a new edition running almost entirely on old players with their old collections running old scenarios that were designed to stress large armies. Those players flock to what works, which is 100 points. Meanwhile the new crowd, the whole purpose of ripping the band aid off in the first place don't even have models and even as they're finally released, are finding themselves thrust into an environment that demands buying 2 of those starters whose main justification is simply that they provide a "full" experience on their own. The complete lack of support for the game at 50-75 points has been choking the life out of the game since MK2. Now though, when the game has been reworked around games more than scale, its honestly just a total killer, IMO.

I think it would be fair to say warmachine bloated into a GW scale game and the current fanbase likes that. But old fans and new simply don't. We liked the skirmish size and we're willing to overpay on minis because you didn't need so many. You can't charge GW prices for any other game. And you know all these extra parts are costing the players jacking the price up. A 2 player box needs to be sub 100 quid unless it's got a huge ip behind it like star wars and PP doesn't have that

Battlettech disagrees. Grognard bile sustained that game for decades. Nothing ever dies any more, its all zombies until a desperate reboot comes along. Even in our hobby.

I do not quite understand what you are point is here. when comparing the game/minis CBT is very different from what PP/GW are doing.

I have been playing CBT since 1987 and i never stopped. there was always small groups of dedicated players. one of the key things about CBT compared to the other 2 games is the core rules have basically never changed in 30 years. even spin off games that may have gone nowhere (the clicks game, the card game etc..) had no real effect on the game. the game was always supported, you could always buy minis and rules and army build programs. because all the rules have always been there to the point i would say they never had a real "edition change" other than a couple needed rules tweaks to charts or things like how AMS works. for the most part they just moved all the rules into 2 camps-the core rules and the huge book of optional rules.

Compared to what PP and GW have done with the edition changes not only have they changed the core rules. they have changed the setting and aesthetics. changing the games to the point that they are not even the same game anymore other than wearing a skin suit of the setting.


That is why CBT has always been playable without having to pick a favorite edition VS what the other companies are doing.

I find it ironic.

For all the heat gw get for their actions surrounding ruthlessly and shamelessly nuking wfb, throwing the player base under the bus and releasing a new game/building a new community to go with it - whilst admittedly flawed, arguably it was the right decision from a business pov and it needed done.

Pp needs a new game with a new community but they are tied by circumstances to a rump community that at the end of the day, and actions catering to them that isn't helping the future of the game.

 Shrapnelsmile wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:
The main issue is just that it still doesn't feel like mk4 has actually released. The Legacy armies are all well and good, but the new armies don't have most of their product 6 months after releasing all their rules.
What's compounding that is the SR pushing for 100 point games that are easy for the Legacy armies to support, but the new armies really only can by buying multiple starters and spamming their limited options. All the advantages of scaling the game down and making it more accessible have been lost by not having the new armies ready to lead and instead leaning back on Legacy collections.
Most of the local crew is interested, but giving it a year or so to work things out. We've got a few waiting for Dusk and Khymera specifically but whether its really worth pushing to make a regular thing again will largely come down to how well PP can stabilize its production and start getting these army boxes out on time.

Big part of that is that PP caved to its existing player base demands instead of holding to its guns. Originally PP intended 50pts to be the competitive format for the first year so as to enable ease of entry for new players. The existing community is myopic and self centered and demanded 100 pts for it's sameness to the established mk3 75 point standard, which most people outside the core community otherwise consider too large.

This is unfortunate. How did it transpire? Play testers and established event organizers complained or something?

LunarSol pretty much hit the nail on the head, but also PP is in an echo chamber of its own making and doesnt really have channels for feedback from outside its core community and fanbase. The owner of the company famously doesn't believe in marketing - which is more than just "convincing people to buy stuff" but also in large part "understanding who buys your stuff, why they buy it, what they want to buy, and what others who aren't currently buying it want/need in order to start buying it". Their only means of really getting feedback is through portals only accessed by the most passionate fans that are actively engaged with the community online, which ignores the thoughts and opinions from the "silent majority" of more casual fans. The fact that their game devs are also closely tied in with the top tier competitive players in the community (first name basis, drinking buddies at major events and conventions level relationships) also probably colors their perception of things through personal relationships instead of taking a wider view of the community as a whole and considering the interests of a broader cross-section of the playerbase.

 Overread wrote:
The problem is PP isn't in "get new people" mode. They are still trapped in "please our current customers" mode because they 100% need them.
Warcaster didn't take off in a big way and has been even quieter with news than Warmachine has (a sad thing, but Warcaster was impressive in coming out during Covid without many issues and yet it just never got any traction)
Whilst the PP side of Monster Apoc is good; the recent disaster is going to tarnish that with a huge slew of issues IF it fails to deliver (or delivers only with a sharp price spike for customers)
So PP 100% needs their current Warmachine market on their side.

You say that, but the new edition was tailor-made to appeal to new players on launch. The big announcement was basically "Hey, yknow those armies and miniatures miniatures you've spent decades and thousands of dollars collecting, building, painting, and playing with? Well their all functionally obsolete. We'll release competitive legal rules for some of your legacy models, but you'll only have access to about 40% of the model range across two discrete army lists per faction with strict limitations on how you can field your legacy collection. Don't worry, the remainder will still have rules for use in a second-tier casual play format that we probably won't ever update or balance - try to enjoy it best you can. Oh, and these armies will be 100% separate and discrete from the new armies we are releasing, so no new model releases will ever be backwards compatible with your existing collection. On that note, a number of the factions you've come to know and love over the years will not be returning in the new edition, hope you don't mind! Anyway, please start over from square zero with an entirely new army, thanks!"

 LunarSol wrote:

 Shrapnelsmile wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:

Big part of that is that PP caved to its existing player base demands instead of holding to its guns. Originally PP intended 50pts to be the competitive format for the first year so as to enable ease of entry for new players. The existing community is myopic and self centered and demanded 100 pts for it's sameness to the established mk3 75 point standard, which most people outside the core community otherwise consider too large.

This is unfortunate. How did it transpire? Play testers and established event organizers complained or something?

So, PP has always had a bit of a problem of listening to its fans. I'll post a long long explanation of why this a problem for them in a bit, but at the moment I'm going to focus on the most recent issues with MK4.
MK4 is not really meant to appease the current fanbase. It's clearly designed as a fresh start, with even the legacy content being full of compromises for existing players. Where it makes sense is making the game enticing for new players. The new rules just work better when played with smaller armies on tables with far denser terrain. Everything about it is more modular and easier to transport and the limited SKUs are probably too large to be as enticing as they need to be, but really do provide you with a full experience with meaningful options in a way that prior starters have completely failed to.
So what's gone wrong? Well, more than anything, they've failed to deliver the new product on time. They keep promising more and more stuff, but have yet to stabilize their release schedule, which is at least 4 months behind and keeps slipping even after stores receive solicitations and preorder dates. This has largely left the new armies in limbo, with Cygnar and Orgoth finally having their 75 point expansion hit shelves literally days ago. Whatever hype was built up for them has long dwindled and the feeling like the game still hasn't really launched yet has people playing wait and see.
And that leads us to what I feel will likely be the mortal wound for the whole thing, which is scenario design. Steamroller was once upon a time a pretty groundbreaking system, but it really hasn't kept up with the times in the last.... 15? years. It's been refined, but more than anything its been stretched to accommodate the ever increasing size of the game. Even in the heyday of mk2, it was designed in a way that demanded full size armies to cover all the objectives with no real way to scale down without the scenario just kind of collapsing. MK4 wants to be a smaller game and early on PP pushed some wildly different (and admittedly kind of terrible) scenario ideas, but when they flopped when presented at WFW to the hardest of hardcore crowd, PP balked and just rereleased SR2022 again. These scenarios are just terrible at anything less than 100 points. A lot of them are dependent on all of MK3s free solos and barely even work at 100 points in MK4.
So you've got a new edition running almost entirely on old players with their old collections running old scenarios that were designed to stress large armies. Those players flock to what works, which is 100 points. Meanwhile the new crowd, the whole purpose of ripping the band aid off in the first place don't even have models and even as they're finally released, are finding themselves thrust into an environment that demands buying 2 of those starters whose main justification is simply that they provide a "full" experience on their own. The complete lack of support for the game at 50-75 points has been choking the life out of the game since MK2. Now though, when the game has been reworked around games more than scale, its honestly just a total killer, IMO.

100% this.

I'll also add that, having done a lot of playtesting at 50 pts prior to PP determining 100 to be the way forward, the game just plays better at 50. Its fast, brutal, tactical, fun, and not overwhelming. 100 pts is just a brutal slog with too much going on.

Yo7 wrote:
I think it would be fair to say warmachine bloated into a GW scale game and the current fanbase likes that. But old fans and new simply don't. We liked the skirmish size and we're willing to overpay on minis because you didn't need so many. You can't charge GW prices for any other game. And you know all these extra parts are costing the players jacking the price up. A 2 player box needs to be sub 100 quid unless it's got a huge ip behind it like star wars and PP doesn't have that

I think its more that PP bloated into a old-GW style company and hasn't managed to find its proper footing as a company and organizational culture since then. They have a lot more staff, overhead, and operational bloat than other miniatures companies of similar levels of popularity do, likely a relic and artifact of when they were in growth mode prior to the mk3 collapse. PP at its infancy was the anti-GW, it was hip, modern, community oriented, etc. The rules were in many ways revolutionary for its time and at the forefront of contemporary game design trends when it launched. Then through multiple editions of warmachine the company basically completely stagnated as new competitors entered the scene and blew right past PP by appealing to ever more modern player sensibilities and pushing the envelope even farther than PP did, to the point that even GW has managed to "get with it" and make PP look like the stale dinosaur in the room, even while the actual stale dinosaur that is Battletech is leading its own little renaissance by reintroducing younger generations of gamers to extremely crunchy old school wargaming.

To clarify, I say old-GW because PP has a very old-GW way of viewing the market and interacting with their customer base, whereas nu-GW is a lot more engaged across a pretty wide cross-section of its fanbase through different channels, but also more keenly aware of overall industry design trends, etc. Many of the changes being made for 10e are exemplary of this, some of the changes are things that competitive players have been desirous of, but many more are for what the filthy casuals like me have been crying for since very early in 9th ed - in all (and I say this as a tabletop game snob and a fierce GW critic who has been reasonably convinced that the majority of the GW rules studio couldn't design a decent tabletop game if their lives depended on it) it appears to be a very modern tabletop ruleset with sound design principles underlying it while still being true to 40ks roots in most respects. I am impressed. Mk4 WM on the other hand has vastly improved playability and taken some very positive steps in the right direction, but is being held back in part by PPs unwillingness to really rip the bandaid off and push for play formats beyond the comfort zone that is the streamroller packet (which has long been an anchor around the games throat).

The thing is there was no one single thing that caused PP's decline, it was a series of elements coupled to a lack of steadying or promoting elements that helped counterbalance the negative.

GW on the other hand has had negatives too over the years; heck canning Old World was one of the biggest blunders on many fronts.

However the thing is GW always had counter-balance elements and even when they were on a decline it was a gradual thing.




The biggest thing is likely that GW delivers on models. For lines that are current and not withdrawn, you can get them.

PP on the other hand had huge issues with supply outside of their core home regions. These issues burned stores and players and the result was even if you were a fan, there could be hoops to jump through to get stock.


Also one big change GW made which I think helped turn their numbers around; is that they started talking through marketing. GW now does 7 days a week, every day marketing through their various social media and direct media channels. PP on the other hand, as we've noted earlier, is near silent and they are not tapping into youtube content creators in a big way either.


GW makes sure you hear about their models that they do sell; they make sure those models are in stores - with some iffy supply overseas as a result of stocking and shipping aspects.
But in general you can hear about and buy GW models.



I think PP also burned themselves on gateway, again we've said before that PP has been shifting to these big, expensive packs as the only gateway to their games. Sure GW has just shifted their gateway "battleforces" up a price, but they are still sub £100 and they are also not the only option. You can buy individual models easily; you can get into Killteam and Underworlds and Warcry for 1 pack of cheaper models. They promote and made a game of Killteam instead of just having it as a page in the main rules.


That's a trick PP should have seen and capitalised on. Let their established players have their 100point battles by all means. Just introduce a 50 point system or a 25 that allows newbies into the game. Then market the heck out of that system to promote it with tournaments and such so that established players are tempted to play it too for variety. That's basically what GW did and it works great; new players can get right in and game quickly and old players are encouraged to also play for those formats to increase the active player pool for them.


I don't think PP needs a new game or a new IP. I think what they need is a sorely required cash injection coupled with sound business and marketing choices to promote, adapt and get what they have out into the world and get people aware of it and talking about it. And not talking about it like in this thread; but talking about the future; about awesome stuff coming.

And also get their production system stored out so that people can get their models; get into the game affordably and all .


Automatically Appended Next Post:

chaos0xomega wrote:

 Overread wrote:
The problem is PP isn't in "get new people" mode. They are still trapped in "please our current customers" mode because they 100% need them.
Warcaster didn't take off in a big way and has been even quieter with news than Warmachine has (a sad thing, but Warcaster was impressive in coming out during Covid without many issues and yet it just never got any traction)
Whilst the PP side of Monster Apoc is good; the recent disaster is going to tarnish that with a huge slew of issues IF it fails to deliver (or delivers only with a sharp price spike for customers)
So PP 100% needs their current Warmachine market on their side.

You say that, but the new edition was tailor-made to appeal to new players on launch. The big announcement was basically "Hey, yknow those armies and miniatures miniatures you've spent decades and thousands of dollars collecting, building, painting, and playing with? Well their all functionally obsolete. We'll release competitive legal rules for some of your legacy models, but you'll only have access to about 40% of the model range across two discrete army lists per faction with strict limitations on how you can field your legacy collection. Don't worry, the remainder will still have rules for use in a second-tier casual play format that we probably won't ever update or balance - try to enjoy it best you can. Oh, and these armies will be 100% separate and discrete from the new armies we are releasing, so no new model releases will ever be backwards compatible with your existing collection. On that note, a number of the factions you've come to know and love over the years will not be returning in the new edition, hope you don't mind! Anyway, please start over from square zero with an entirely new army, thanks!"

Honestly I'd forgotten about that bit; if partly only due to the fact that the only force I've got in any shape is Everblght and for some reason PP decided to put Hordes way after Warmachine in the updates.

But yeah invalidating whole armies in a big swathe is a bad move. I've never understood why PP never did what GW has done successfully for years and just - updated old sculpts with new sculpts and re-released them. Loads of pepole rebuy the same models to generate easy sales because the new one is cooler/different/perhaps bigger but at least differently designed. There's a lot of love they can also do with poses with 3D printing that they can't do with metal and such so with skilled sculptors they could go wild.

chaos0xomega wrote:

I'll also add that, having done a lot of playtesting at 50 pts prior to PP determining 100 to be the way forward, the game just plays better at 50. Its fast, brutal, tactical, fun, and not overwhelming. 100 pts is just a brutal slog with too much going on.

This is what really irks me. I've absolutely loved what I've played of Mk4. I've been leaning towards 75 simply because while I think 50 feels great for Warcasters, Warlocks just require too much Warbeast investment to feel like they have much in the way of options at 50. 75 feels about right for them and sees a bit more variety show up in my Warcaster armies.

I'm definitely on board with promoting the game again, but the products to push just aren't available yet. My main fear is just that by the time they are, the old bad habits will be too entrenched to be worth getting people interested in a leaner experience, even if that's only because the game is effectively dead outside of the ever dwindling tournament grinders. Either way, at the moment I'm turning my legacy collection into "final" 75 point lists that scale down to 50 pretty easily.

I'm not saying anything above is wrong but comparing anything to GW is like comparing your garden to Everest. Even if PP did try to use the Internet better they're not going to come close to the reach GW has. When a GW designer farts we get 12 lore channels discussing the new nurgle plague. GW isn't even a tabletop game in the same sense WWE isn't wrestling any more. Its an unique market that happens to contain those things because it grew out of them. Even if you had the same budget and did everything the same you couldn't compete on brand alone. You need to do something to stand out and not be cookie cutter like everyone else. Maybe I'm too old now but I can't see a wider culture that is even ready for a move beyond GW. Warmachine grew out of the edge teen period of rapid expansion into steam punk, shoulder pads and jackass. You don't have anything close to that any more. You have faux 80s nostalgia, safe spaces and super hero movies that already have their own games being made. How do you ride the current cultural wave beyond Heman board games and painting an army navy and neon green/pink. PP are definitely behind the curve but is a warmachine style rise to glory possible without a wider culture willing to take risks instead of buying shatterpoint, crisis protocol and GWs stuff? Players have budgets and battle droids aren't cheap (most games have sky rocketed in price making playing multiples hard and fear of wasting money is lurking)

Been some great posts by people on here, laying out the issues. But its nothing that we haven't covered over and over and over again with PP since the launch of Mk3 and maybe a bit before. The fact that its the same issues, complaints, missteps and denials probably is a good indication as to why PP is barely limping along.

WM/H ironically is how I found DakkaDakka, despite it being mainly GW focused because it was a board outside of the immediate WM/H community where the game could be discussed. If PP managed to turn things around then im here for it but im not going to be lifting a finger to help. Too many years of the same issues, taking the same hits, knocking my head against the same brick walls. My goodwill is 110% spent. Im massively enjoying other small games like Malifaux right now.

If a company continues to act like this then maybe, just maybe, it just doesn't deserve to survive.

Yo7 wrote:
Warmachine grew out of the edge teen period of rapid expansion into steam punk, shoulder pads and jackass. You don't have anything close to that any more. You have faux 80s nostalgia, safe spaces and super hero movies that already have their own games being made. How do you ride the current cultural wave beyond Heman board games and painting an army navy and neon green/pink. PP are definitely behind the curve but is a warmachine style rise to glory possible without a wider culture willing to take risks instead of buying shatterpoint, crisis protocol and GWs stuff? Players have budgets and battle droids aren't cheap (most games have sky rocketed in price making playing multiples hard and fear of wasting money is lurking)

You're fairly on point here. I'd also add wmh was 'the right game; right time' to capitalise on gw's late-kirby era shenanigans and nastiness towards the fan base - around 2010 to 14, and that years 'summer of discontent'. Gw was complacent anf openly regarded its own fans with contempt; the alternative to 40k was fantasy and gw was deliberately stripping out any internal 'threats' to their big 2. Furthermore they were contemptuous of innovation or 'change' and would just double down because kirby was a short termer at this point who.couldnt see beyond his pension pot imo. Folks flocked to pp in droves (anyone remember the stock shortages back then becayse they couldnt keep.up?), and at the time pp were the movers and shakers in the industry - they were a step ahead of the curve and were doing things in their games people had wanted done for years.

And here's the thing. Pp stagnated, gw learned. Maje no mistake, gw are just as ruthless as they've ever been - they are not nor will ever be our 'friends', bit they've had a reality check and honesty are better because of it.

Honestly, as you say the 'lightning in the bottle' moment is not there for pp at this moment. Its a 90s style game in the 20s, the cultural momentum is against it, and the other players have stepped up.their game massively.

Honestly the whole "90s game in the 20s" I thing I think gets overblown. I can think of a lot of old games that haven't "moved with the times" rules wise that people still play and have fun with - heck Battletech is mentioned earlier and there's a mountain of boardgames that never change rules (or do so insanely slowly).


I think the whole "modern rules" thing is more people just playing one kind of game for ages and then looking around for something structurally different. It might be wrapped as "new hotness" but in the end its not so much about it being new as it is about it being a different experience that allows for different approaches and something fresh.




So I don't think its the "game" that's the core of the problem for PP. Part of it yes, but I'd argue that the greater problem is the company around the game. I think Warcaster shows this, it is a more modern system and its doing things that Infinity and Wyrd and others aren't doing with its in-game sideboard. It's got that fresh appeal and its - dead in the water.
Launching during Covid with a totally new game did not help; but the company behind it is the bigger problem.

Dystopian Wars also launched during Covid times (heck its original all resin launch was delayed by over a year because of lockdowns) and yet its steadily managed to grow and grow as Warcradle are making very steady, sustained progress with it.

 Overread wrote:
Honestly the whole "90s game in the 20s" I thing I think gets overblown. I can think of a lot of old games that haven't "moved with the times" rules wise that people still play and have fun with - heck Battletech is mentioned earlier and there's a mountain of boardgames that never change rules (or do so insanely slowly).

Yeah, having played actual 90s style tabletop games, I can tell you warmachine is not that. When I think 90s style games I think of games like B5 Wars, Battlefleet Gothic, Crimson Skies, DBA, Warhammer Ancient Battles, Fire and Fury/Johnny Reb, Command Decision, Crossfire, A Fistful of TOWs, Ironclads & Ether Flyers, Dirtside, Epic, Full Thrust, Heavy Gear/Jovian Chronicles, Necromunda, OGRE, Warzone, Vor the Maelstrom, Man O War, Mordheim, etc. None of those really have much in common with the design philosophy of Warmachine. Warmachine released in 2003, but it has more in common with games that released ~10 years later than it did its contemporaries - which is why it was so successful for a time, because it was ahead of its time and moved forward the concept of what tabletop wargames could be like. If anything, its solidly a "2010 game in 2023".

Dystopian Wars also launched during Covid times (heck its original all resin launch was delayed by over a year because of lockdowns) and yet its steadily managed to grow and grow as Warcradle are making very steady, sustained progress with it.

Heh, talk about a 90s game in the 20s.

What you say about the 90s links has merits - thanks fimir showing a different pov on it.

If I may discuss briefly?

I've seen a lot of commentary regarding the association of wmh and the 90s more with the 'x-treme' ethos and over-the-top advertising and 'energy' of the 90s. That's more what I was trying to convey, i think.

in todays more... 'sensitive, inclusive and affirming' era, phrases like 'play like you got a pair' and the ott trash talking of mk1s page 5 are grounds for cancelling and social shame. I know they were chucked in mk3 and always had some push back in our more modern era, but its very much 90s talk - it wouldn't even have folks batting an eyelid back when we were kids.

That said, while The game itself was forward thinking in a lot of ways dont forget it was an early-noughties game based on knowledge from the previous decade so claims of 90s design are not completely unwarranted. They would hsvd drawn on the game-design-theory of that era. If anything these is a lot of crossover in terminology use and game elements from games of that era eg dnd (which makes sense considering the iron kingdoms originated as a d20 game) and I remember remarking on a few subtle similarities between wmh and 2nd Ed 40k game mechanisms at the time - but that was more curious coincidence than anything else.

I wouldn't call warmachine 90s in any sense. Its a very masculine 00s, like the WWF attitude era and Jack ass being early 20s guys being.. Well guys. The 90s extreme was more surfer and less macho.

Reading the thread I do think that's wanted by a lot of men now so maybe a revival is possible. Or a one page rules style warmachine using 3d printed minis and a similar rule set. I've considered working on something like that myself. It wouldn't be too difficult but you need to gain attention for it and I'm unsure how. Plus I despise character Jack's as a concept as they invalidate basic choices so I would murder hobo like half the range...

Is Dystopian Wars still around? I haven’t heard hide nor hair of that one since the relaunch.

 AduroT wrote:
Is Dystopian Wars still around? I haven’t heard hide nor hair of that one since the relaunch.

That's the thing about minis games. Whatever you think is big or dead or whatever might be thriving or non-existent somewhere else. Even in my local era there was a long time where 40k appeared dead, but actually had one of the biggest playerbases completely secluded to a network of basement games. Con attendance is a useful indicator, but also the kind of myopic view that lead to a lot of PPs problems in the first place. A tall tree with weak roots that falls in a storm.

 AduroT wrote:
Is Dystopian Wars still around? I haven’t heard hide nor hair of that one since the relaunch.

There's a couple of threads on it and WC have been steady at releasing new models every month for a range of factions. They are even up to airships for some forces now. They've also done a rare thing and earlier plastic modles have had updates to their moulds as they've advanced their skill. Mostly this has been things like changing the smaller central turrets from fixed part of the mould to stand alone parts (which also meant the barrels are free standing not fused into the base of the ship); and also giving most factions three or so different small turret options instead of just one.

I think its a long way from mainstream or big leagues, but its had what I consider a steady sustained level of support and growth. No massive spurt but a steady one.



News thread (linked to the last page cause that's more relevant as its a rolling news thread)
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/960/708649.page
Fan thread
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/800528.page

I think that PP is a little bit like a band that recorded a fluke one hit wonder. The thing with a lot of one hit wonders is that they didn't have another hit because they just didn't have the talent or ideas to merit one.

Warmachine was a buzzy, minor player in Mark I. It was in MK II that it really blew up. Instead of asking why they've dwindled since then (they clearly aren't a well run company), the question is why did it blow up? Why did it become such a big hit?

I think it had a lot of the stuff that you need (decent to good models, great lore, etc) but I do think the competitive aspect was the key. Steamroller was, at the time, such a change to how games can be played. Having objectives plus caster kill, with two lists, made things really interesting. And when you got rocked, it was quick.

But that's not enough in 2023. Other games have better scenarios, and other game certainly have comparable to better lore and models. I think they've just been out of ideas since early MKII.

 Polonius wrote:
It was in MK II that it really blew up. Instead of asking why they've dwindled since then (they clearly aren't a well run company), the question is why did it blow up? Why did it become such a big hit?

Possibly. Warmachine has locally evolved from blowing up in quite spectacular manner in 2010-2012 to the point of it being a somewhat sizable alternative to WH40K to people asking: "What is Warmachine? First time hearing about it" nowadays. Like, both Malifaux and Infinity still exist and have dedicated communities, but Warmachine just completely vanished as if it was never there in the first place.

I was personally put off by the game's fans' attitudes. "We're the real deal, GW and other games suck ass and are complete trash in comparison to our competitive flagship, hell yeah, play like page 5 says you to do so!". I have some Khador, Cryx and Legion models bought 10+ years ago, and they range from OK (Legion's warbeasts are cool) to bloody terrible, this is some of the worst posing and sculpting quality I've ever worked with, so it didn't help matters for sure.

Good point about steamroller scenarios. Once upon a time they were cutting edge scenario design. Today they are generic, flavorless, and boring. They've overstayed their welcome, other games are demonstrating thst you can have exciting fun and engaging scenario design that is balanced while still feeling like it has some basis in narrative. Steamroller scenarios are just bland.

 Overread wrote:
I think the core problem is past the actual launch of the edition, PP hasn't been aggressive with marketing MKIV outside of their own current community/customerbase.

Far as I'm aware they still lack a proper local rep system

They had the best one around. They took it out back and shot it in the head. The playerbase declining since that moment is pure coincidence...

At one time I had a collection of Khador, Cryx, with a few gators and trolls, but got out years ago. My memories of the games I played were fair at best, ending with most of the last games leaving a bad taste in my mouth and the reason I got out. When you are not having fun in a game there is not much reason to continue, again I don't expect to win but also don't care for being curb stomped either. Even comparing it to Necromunda, the game is a little broken but I still enjoyed the games I lost and the times I played. Even with a Jacked up Goliath that caught fire on the second turn and was never injured but spent most of the game running around the board on fire never rolling to put out the flames. Or going cheap with one weapon and bringing a "magic bullet" where you roll a "one" and a jam on your first shot then fail your ammo check. Those are funny bad memories, but being silly in Warmachine just got you stomped faster. I guess I am not a competitive player and that is what most players were.

Genoside07

I can understand that, i found that the hardcore WM/H steamroller players were that toxic group i never enjoyed playing with. even in MKIII we never use theme lists, or play steamroller. we play at 50 points instead of 75 and have a very casual fun approach to the game which is why we still play it. like any other game system if you are going to spend an hour or two per game you play you want it to be an enjoyable experience, not a lesson in frustration no matter if it is a PP game, a GW game or any other game system.

Press gangers being cancelled was over a wotc judge Labour laws..

I still refuse to believe the page 5 dude bro meme is real. I was very active at the peak and never met one. I was the biggest jerk I ever met and it was never about page 5. That feels like an Internet rumour becoming an urban legend

Page 5 things are odd - I always get the feeling its more a USA thing than a UK/EU thing; but in the end it is odd.

I think in the end its just that regular jerks or people with a very competitive attitude and low social skills simply leaned on it.

I think also there was use of page 5 to justify basically "seal clubbing" in that people who were good at the game would always play their best and would win over newbies or the casual players/less skilled.


That isn't unique to Warmachine, but I think the fact that it attracted a lot of competitive style people (over warhammer and such which can be played competitive but never tried to be a tight competitive rules system) resulted in a bit of an over concentration in some regions.



But yeah PG being closed down was one of their biggest issues; as was the fact that they never tried to work out a way around it to get something like it going again in a different form. If you're not GW and don't have your own stores and a massive marketing system; you need a local rep system.

Almost every wargame that does well has one because you need that one person in every club to push your game; to be invested into it and to have a standard of game skill and also support from others to push through the "no one plays locally" bubble. To run demo game after demo game; to have a half decent pair of starter forces (at least) and a table and terrain and to draw people in.

What game even still has that kind of ambassador type program? I’m not aware of any.

Dystopian Wars, Malifaux, Infinity (least fairly sure Infinity has one). I'm also pretty sure that One Page Rules is developing/running their own as well.

There's no denying, the Press Ganger system was very effective and well known. It certainly was very effective.
Basically if you don't have your own stores and staff, having an ambassador system is very important and greatly helps toward growth and promotion of the game.

I think when you look at games which are doing well, an effective ambassador system is often built in somewhere within its structure. For some it might be very informal and mostly used just to help coordinate events and pool resources. A few might be "fan run"; meanwhile others might come with perks for those who take part; tests and approvals to gain the title and such.

Again PP set the tone with that - having a test to make sure entries knew the game; requiring 2 starter pack armies, built and painted from different forces; etc..

 Overread wrote:


I think also there was use of page 5 to justify basically "seal clubbing" in that people who were good at the game would always play their best and would win over newbies or the casual players/less skilled.

I've always seen it as a contradiction. Page 5 (point 3) explicitely advised defying convention, fail-safe formulas and status quo which is the exact opposite of copying a cookie cutter netlist spamming the same optimal model.

It was also quite clear that beating newbies brings no honour or bragging rights.

Cyel wrote:

 Overread wrote:


I think also there was use of page 5 to justify basically "seal clubbing" in that people who were good at the game would always play their best and would win over newbies or the casual players/less skilled.

I've always seen it as a contradiction. Page 5 (point 3) explicitely advised defying convention, fail-safe formulas and status quo which is the exact opposite of copying a cookie cutter netlist spamming the same optimal model.

It was also quite clear that beating newbies brings no honour or bragging rights.

agree on both points. Seal Clubbing is the worst, and I've seen it so much in Warmachine and 40K communities.