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Voss wrote:

cody.d. wrote:

Karol wrote:
In a world where the Toughness of tanks breaks 10, having your anti tank in the form of 6-12-24" str 8 weapon is not fine. At least in my opinion.

Well that's a bit of a universal thing isn't it? It just depends if some of the other weapons in any given faction go up.

It isn't universal. What it comes down to is that some armies have a full range, others don't. And this severely impacts weapon options and platforms.

And it isn't just space marines (before anyone jumps in), craftworlds, chaos marines, guard all have dedicated platforms for a variety of weapon types. Orks... sometimes do (we'll have to see, but some of the buggies and mech guns might become more important. But I can remember editions where they were locked at a soft cap of S8 + shokk attack guns and warboss/dread powerclaws, and that was functionally it for AT). Votann and Tau seem functional enough in terms of weapon variety (though could be better). Knights can certainly bring some big AT weapons, but pure knights have other problems.

Most of the rest have to struggle and scramble for 'enough' heavy weapons. I'm sure someone can pick out exceptions, but in general, there is a set of armies that have a real struggle for all-comers lists, let alone skew.

Remember that the melta/multimelta are the sisters workhorse anti tank, something they can take quantities of. It's quite possible they will have some heavier hitters such as the castigator and the artillery tank.

Most factions are having the exact same issue. Their workhorse anti tank is suddenly not higher S than the average tanks T. But this is intentional, to make tanks more survivable. Sisters still have miracle dice to just say, "nope I wound" when they really need it.

Str 8 or 9 is still going to be the average strength for anti tank I reckon, meaning most of the time you'll need a 5 to wound that high T. This is across the board, not just sisters.

I think the Castigator will be good anti-tank; I think all sisters walkers in melee might be good against tanks. We've got 3 types of walkers to choose from.

And here's the thing about melta: I've got enough of it, that even if I don't worry about half range, if I have a few sixes in my MD pool, you're taking six damage once a shot goes through.

Still weak compared to what some other factions have, but it's something. There may very well be other stuff we haven't seen- the Immo's Melta option could be a killer for all we know; it will be two Melta shots with twin linked for rerolls on the wound. If they set it at higher strength because it's a vehicle... Or give it 24" range because it's a vehicle, it could be decent. And it's a transport, sowe can bring a lot, and presumably Doms will still give them scout moves.

Again, I'm not saying that's awesome compared to other factions. I'm just trying to be somewhat hopeful it's not as bad as it might turn out to be.

Also of note, in this edition GW is perfectly happy to give different versions of a weapon based on it's platform. The immolator tank may have a beefier profile to represent the fact that it's twice as large as the one a sister on foot carries.

As always, we need more info, waiting on those indexes to leak.

Welp death guard is trash teir. Watch the stream.

Eldar vs imperial guard tommarrow this should be a good match up.

Tight game despite dg player spending most of game with terminators not doing much(bad positioning) and sending mortarion alone tanking t1shooting and then dueling 2 gd and be'lakor and still needing lucky 6's from daemon to die.

Yeah lose 1 game jnd trash tier.

So according to your logic either ig or eldar is tomorrow trash tier.

Guess you think mortarion should have rule can't die regardless of what. He was basically more than 3 to 1'ed, took 2 turns and daemons got 2 6's on 4dice in the end to kill.

tneva82 wrote:
So according to your logic either ig or eldar is tomorrow trash tier.

Guess you think mortarion should have rule can't die regardless of what.

No one has said, claimed or even implied any of those things.

Spoletta wrote:
Sisters have no anti tank issues.
They have a T9-11 issue, which is different.

They will make a mess of light vehicles and will a bad matchup for heavy vehilces (T12-14).

They really don't like medium vehicles.

Exocist Missiles and Castigator battle Canon cover that.

Lammia wrote:
Exocist Missiles and Castigator battle Canon cover that.

How the hell covers this ULTRA-MEH weapon the blatant anti-tank/armor issues of Sisters:



, and from where exactly do you know that the Castigator will be efficient at killing tanks?

gunchar wrote:

Lammia wrote:
Exocist Missiles and Castigator battle Canon cover that.

How the hell covers this ULTRA-MEH weapon the blatant anti-tank/armor issues of Sisters:



, and from where exactly do you know that the Castigator will be efficient at killing tanks?

The Exorcist isn't really Ultra-Meh. At S10 it's going to wound Rhinos (T9) on 3's, Impulsors (T10) on 4's and "The Big Stuff" (T11+)on 5's. And its going to have (On average) 5-6 tries at doing its D6 Damage with some Miracle Dice. I mean yeah its not a Thundercoil Harpoon, but it can do the anti-tank job with slightly more slightly weaker shots compared to the 4LC Dev Squad. The "Anti-Infantry" profile being (potentially) so much better - I'm going to give you the benefit of cover by firing indirectly, Oh but this weapon ignores cover.... - does not make the the Anti-Tank profile worse. Sisters ARE in a bad spot when it comes to anti-tank - especially the big stuff - when Melta is not the FOTM - so now would be a good time for GW to roll out some new units for them: Bikes with a Super Melta (Think Titan Thermal Spear) or Super Bolter Swap (think Vulcan Megabolter from the DA Jet) mounted in the sidecar.

gunchar wrote:

Lammia wrote:
Exocist Missiles and Castigator battle Canon cover that.

How the hell covers this ULTRA-MEH weapon the blatant anti-tank/armor issues of Sisters:



, and from where exactly do you know that the Castigator will be efficient at killing tanks?

Cassie's battle Canon is a mini Volcano Canon. Will it be great in 10th? Idk. But the ability to force wounds through with units you want to will help too.

This is also assuming Ministorum Melta isn't S10, just because...

Older Sisters players have played whole editions with unplayable Melta and an outdated WD Codex and made something work. We have the knowledge and more tools than ever before. (Plus rule fixes)

Weakest faction from just the preview seems like Deathguard to me. -1 T is not near as strong as it used to be, and while Sticky objectives is good.... I think it would have been better as a datasheet rather than a detachment rule.

Strongest is hard to say. Eldar are pretty nutty with the frontloaded Miracle dice and their detachment inbuilt is expert crafters again. Daemons also look really nutty with the movement they will be pulling off.

@OP: You might want to add the FW focus to the voting options. I can't think of anything weaker than "We don't want you to play with these models that you bought from us."........

Breton wrote:

gunchar wrote:

Lammia wrote:
Exocist Missiles and Castigator battle Canon cover that.

How the hell covers this ULTRA-MEH weapon the blatant anti-tank/armor issues of Sisters:



, and from where exactly do you know that the Castigator will be efficient at killing tanks?

The Exorcist isn't really Ultra-Meh. At S10 it's going to wound Rhinos (T9) on 3's, Impulsors (T10) on 4's and "The Big Stuff" (T11+)on 5's. And its going to have (On average) 5-6 tries at doing its D6 Damage with some Miracle Dice. I mean yeah its not a Thundercoil Harpoon, but it can do the anti-tank job with slightly more slightly weaker shots compared to the 4LC Dev Squad. The "Anti-Infantry" profile being (potentially) so much better - I'm going to give you the benefit of cover by firing indirectly, Oh but this weapon ignores cover.... - does not make the the Anti-Tank profile worse. Sisters ARE in a bad spot when it comes to anti-tank - especially the big stuff - when Melta is not the FOTM - so now would be a good time for GW to roll out some new units for them: Bikes with a Super Melta (Think Titan Thermal Spear) or Super Bolter Swap (think Vulcan Megabolter from the DA Jet) mounted in the sidecar.

How exactly is a swingy + mediocre AP weapon with just slightly more strength than Meltas that has a 3 (most certainly not cheap)units limit not Ultra-Meh, if the so far biggest problem of Sisters are the hilariously weak Meltas in this Edition? And the Anti-Infantry profile is still highly dubious, cause that's not covering anything Sisters Infantry units couldn't already do more flexibly.

It would be a good time, but it's extreme unlikely that Sisters get any new units before their Codex(and they are literally not even on the goddamn roadmap yet), and i've anyways zero trust that GW would even put enough thought into any potentially new units.

Lammia wrote:

gunchar wrote:

Lammia wrote:
Exocist Missiles and Castigator battle Canon cover that.

How the hell covers this ULTRA-MEH weapon the blatant anti-tank/armor issues of Sisters:



, and from where exactly do you know that the Castigator will be efficient at killing tanks?

Cassie's battle Canon is a mini Volcano Canon. Will it be great in 10th? Idk. But the ability to force wounds through with units you want to will help too.

This is also assuming Ministorum Melta isn't S10, just because...

Older Sisters players have played whole editions with unplayable Melta and an outdated WD Codex and made something work. We have the knowledge and more tools than ever before. (Plus rule fixes)

What reasons has GW given us to trust them with the Castigator, i mean if the Preview team for Sisters was this incompetent(especially looking at the contrast with the other "Miracle Dice" fraction Eldars who had arguably the strongest Preview) why exactly should we assume the Rules team was more competent?

Oh come on, if Space Marine Meltas are S9, the chance that Ministorum Meltas will be S10 is around 1% at best.

Bruh..., i've had Sisters since the Witch Hunters book and if competitive play would've been a big deal since then Sisters/Ministorum would've easily still the worst lifetime meta statistics out of all actually the whole time existing factions, even beer and pretzels games were often rough for significant parts of the time before plastic sisters if the opponent was playing solid let alone strong factions. Using those times as the bar means pretty much putting the bar on the ground.

From a game design standpoint the new way miracle dice are generated and their faction ability are beyond garbage.
Relying on your opponent to let you use your main abilities as well as gaining your main benefit when you are losing is just dumb.
This means you are actively punished for playing well and not losing half your army.

gunchar wrote:

Breton wrote:


The Exorcist isn't really Ultra-Meh. At S10 it's going to wound Rhinos (T9) on 3's, Impulsors (T10) on 4's and "The Big Stuff" (T11+)on 5's. And its going to have (On average) 5-6 tries at doing its D6 Damage with some Miracle Dice. I mean yeah its not a Thundercoil Harpoon, but it can do the anti-tank job with slightly more slightly weaker shots compared to the 4LC Dev Squad. The "Anti-Infantry" profile being (potentially) so much better - I'm going to give you the benefit of cover by firing indirectly, Oh but this weapon ignores cover.... - does not make the the Anti-Tank profile worse. Sisters ARE in a bad spot when it comes to anti-tank - especially the big stuff - when Melta is not the FOTM - so now would be a good time for GW to roll out some new units for them: Bikes with a Super Melta (Think Titan Thermal Spear) or Super Bolter Swap (think Vulcan Megabolter from the DA Jet) mounted in the sidecar.

How exactly is a swingy + mediocre AP weapon with just slightly more strength than Meltas that has a 3 (most certainly not cheap)units limit not Ultra-Meh, if the so far biggest problem of Sisters are the hilariously weak Meltas in this Edition? And the Anti-Infantry profile is still highly dubious, cause that's not covering anything Sisters Infantry units couldn't already do more flexibly.

It would be a good time, but it's extreme unlikely that Sisters get any new units before their Codex(and they are literally not even on the goddamn roadmap yet), and i've anyways zero trust that GW would even put enough thought into any potentially new units.

Because its 3+ Indirect S10 shots? That the rest of the army is almost completely barren of anti-tank does not make the Exorcist by itself worse. The faction being in a very bad anti-tank spot does not make the Exorcist itself bad.

The problem with the exorcist is with having d6 shots and d6 damage it’s so swingy it’s not reliable.
Also they keep nerfing it’s ap so I expect when we get a codex it will be ap 0. ☹️

 Mythantor wrote:
The problem with the exorcist is with having d6 shots and d6 damage it’s so swingy it’s not reliable.
Also they keep nerfing it’s ap so I expect when we get a codex it will be ap 0. ☹️

D6+2 shots for the heavy, that means minimum 3 - at S10. Is it a super tank killer? No. Is it "meh"? Also no. Again the unit doesn't have to be bad for the faction to have issues.

Breton wrote:

Because its 3+ Indirect S10 shots? That the rest of the army is almost completely barren of anti-tank does not make the Exorcist by itself worse. The faction being in a very bad anti-tank spot does not make the Exorcist itself bad.

Meh in context of my question to the other user:

How the hell covers this ULTRA-MEH weapon the blatant anti-tank/armor issues of Sisters

, and the Exorcist is also still far too swingy.

gunchar wrote:

, and the Exorcist is also still far too swingy.

The heavy missile choice is going to hurt Heavy Infantry, and light vehicles. Its not going to hurt Heavy Tanks well, but that doesn't make it Meh. It does a different job, and it does it fairly well.

gunchar wrote:

Breton wrote:

Because its 3+ Indirect S10 shots? That the rest of the army is almost completely barren of anti-tank does not make the Exorcist by itself worse. The faction being in a very bad anti-tank spot does not make the Exorcist itself bad.

Meh in context of my question to the other user:

How the hell covers this ULTRA-MEH weapon the blatant anti-tank/armor issues of Sisters

, and the Exorcist is also still far too swingy.

So you're wrong, but not for the reason the other poster said.

Sisters of Battle do not have the capacity, as an army, to kill ANYTHING efficiently. The idea that you would be able to kill an enemy unit with your unit, at a faster rate than the reverse, is frankly laughable.

THIS is why the Exorcist is the best unit in the SoB arsenal. Because it is the only unit in the ENTIRE ARMY that will be allowed to shoot a second time. It is the ONLY unit that will be able to kill ANYTHING, efficiently or not. Does it need 3 turns and 8 miracle dice to kill a Rhino? Absolutely. But Retributors, Paragons, Immolators, Repentia, and Dominions have been dead for 2 turns, so...not really any other options.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Spoletta wrote:
Sisters have no anti tank issues.
They have a T9-11 issue, which is different.

They will make a mess of light vehicles and will a bad matchup for heavy vehilces (T12-14).

They really don't like medium vehicles.

Are you ALSO imagining a make-believe world where a 295pt combo of Retributors, a Dialogus, and an Immolator one shot a 300pt+ T12+vehicle despite Hitting on 4s, wounding on 5s? Without getting Overwatched?

Because I've seen a lot of people who are living that fantasy.

ERJAK wrote:


So you're wrong, but not for the reason the other poster said.

Sisters of Battle do not have the capacity, as an army, to kill ANYTHING efficiently. The idea that you would be able to kill an enemy unit with your unit, at a faster rate than the reverse, is frankly laughable.

Point of clarification: I'm not actually saying that Sisters are Good or bad - I think they're in a hole when it comes to anti-tank. That said, all I'm saying is that the individual unit the "Exorcist" is not Meh. It doesn't do the job people want it to do, it does a different job, and it does it well enough to be better than merely meh.

How much firepower do you think it takes to kill five Battle Sisters?

 JNAProductions wrote:
How much firepower do you think it takes to kill five Battle Sisters?

Enough that you probably need to point a real unit at them if you want to ensure they're actually wiped out. Miracle dice can help keep that lost model or two alive to get that +1 to hit +1 to wound or force a second unit to shoot at them.

Narrative player here

I think the Sisters army is very cheap so you can load up on a lot of units to make up for them being worse than previous editions. Also, the tanks are great especially the Exorcist.

Tanks getting tougher also makes it more viable to put your squishy Sisters into tanks to get them into range for melta.

I do think when we get the Bloody Rose rite they’ll get their close combat potential back because they buffed the Martyred Lady ability.

Also I think Valrak said Sisters sold ridiculously well so I think they will get a third wave of models late in 10th which will cover some of these gaps.

My only concerns are:

- The cost for 1W T3 Sisters and 2W 3A WS4 etc etc marines still feels off. Not by the same degree I thought; but still. Getting the guns for free does offset slightly but they should at least be half the value of marines.
- Paragons are maybe a little too expensive. Neither quite good enough to justify their points or cheap enough to be taken lightly.
- Rest of the list is very cheap so less
Incentive to take line Sister of Battle units.
- Having a cap of ten per squad hurts the army. I can’t put buffs on 20 wounds and 30 attacks like marines can. So it’s a little harder to get as far as you would like with buffs.

Dumpster fire for me would have been this list but Sisters of Battle being 150 points before guns. I genuinely think GW still don’t appreciate how much the marine profile has been buffed. Sisters aren’t a mid tier between a guardsman and a marine. So they shouldn’t be costed like one.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

Also I think Valrak said Sisters sold ridiculously well so I think they will get a third wave of models late in 10th which will cover some of these gaps.

I'm not sure 'Wait and see if new units come out to cover the new inability to deal with heavy armour' is really as good an argument as you might have thought...

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Narrative player here

I think the Sisters army is very cheap so you can load up on a lot of units to make up for them being worse than previous editions. Also, the tanks are great especially the Exorcist.

Tanks getting tougher also makes it more viable to put your squishy Sisters into tanks to get them into range for melta.

I do think when we get the Bloody Rose rite they’ll get their close combat potential back because they buffed the Martyred Lady ability.

Also I think Valrak said Sisters sold ridiculously well so I think they will get a third wave of models late in 10th which will cover some of these gaps.

My only concerns are:

- The cost for 1W T3 Sisters and 2W 3A WS4 etc etc marines still feels off. Not by the same degree I thought; but still. Getting the guns for free does offset slightly but they should at least be half the value of marines.
- Paragons are maybe a little too expensive. Neither quite good enough to justify their points or cheap enough to be taken lightly.
- Rest of the list is very cheap so less
Incentive to take line Sister of Battle units.
- Having a cap of ten per squad hurts the army. I can’t put buffs on 20 wounds and 30 attacks like marines can. So it’s a little harder to get as far as you would like with buffs.

Dumpster fire for me would have been this list but Sisters of Battle being 150 points before guns. I genuinely think GW still don’t appreciate how much the marine profile has been buffed. Sisters aren’t a mid tier between a guardsman and a marine. So they shouldn’t be costed like one.

The units being cheap means the limit on characters will bite hard.

In some cases they are pricing sisters higher than SM, see Retributers for example which is crazy.

Breton 810118 11551085 wrote:

Point of clarification: I'm not actually saying that Sisters are Good or bad - I think they're in a hole when it comes to anti-tank. That said, all I'm saying is that the individual unit the "Exorcist" is not Meh. It doesn't do the job people want it to do, it does a different job, and it does it well enough to be better than merely meh.

If something do what it is suppose to do, then it is like the text book definition of bad. If my trainers expects me to do specific stuff, I don't do it, but I sing well, then it doesn't somehow even itself out. A weapon that is suppose to counter tanks, in an army that lacks other sources ot anti tank, can not have a swingy number of shots and wounds. One of those two is too much.

Karol wrote:


If something do what it is suppose to do, then it is like the text book definition of bad. If my trainers expects me to do specific stuff, I don't do it, but I sing well, then it doesn't somehow even itself out. A weapon that is suppose to counter tanks, in an army that lacks other sources ot anti tank, can not have a swingy number of shots and wounds. One of those two is too much.

Who said it was supposed to counter tanks? People may have guessed it was, but GW never said it was. The Heavy Missile version is going to make unhappy campers out of Terminators, Gravis, Broadsides, Crisis, Assorted Destroyers, Meganobz, Wraith Blade/Guard, and so on.

Breton wrote:

Karol wrote:


If something do what it is suppose to do, then it is like the text book definition of bad. If my trainers expects me to do specific stuff, I don't do it, but I sing well, then it doesn't somehow even itself out. A weapon that is suppose to counter tanks, in an army that lacks other sources ot anti tank, can not have a swingy number of shots and wounds. One of those two is too much.

Who said it was supposed to counter tanks? People may have guessed it was, but GW never said it was. The Heavy Missile version is going to make unhappy campers out of Terminators, Gravis, Broadsides, Crisis, Assorted Destroyers, Meganobz, Wraith Blade/Guard, and so on.

Doing 1d6 damage makes it terrible at killing multi wound infantry. Cause you will get a lot of overkill and underkill. To be efficient at killing multi wound infantry you need to deal reliable damage.
Imagine rolling a 2 for damage against a Termi. I’m not even going into the lack of ap against targets that will often be in cover etc.

Custodes, as we no longer have a plastic AT option. All our AT stuff is directly tied to FW. Or praying on 6s. We can be over run by anything T10 or above.