Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Eldar most powerful, death guard least powerfully everything else will fall between, the closer you are to eldar the more rerolls you will have the closer to death guard the less rerolls you will have.
This is known as the law of eldar and death, this will also suck for necrons who will be near death guard on the powers scale, deathless necrons, and servants of the God of death death guard, kreig will dodge this as they are just that cool, but should you embody death, you shall know loss.

O wait eldar have yneead now.... A well pointy ears rock I guess.

 The Red Hobbit wrote:
I do not think it's a good idea to preview units with rerolls while making that claim.

Why? Should they pretend there aren't units with rerolls and then surprise everyone with them? What would be the point of that?

And how are we going to prove or disprove the statement? What method will allow us to test this? Certainly marines reroll a lot versus one target. Does that become a significant number of rerolls or is it mostly big guns with few shots shooting big things? Is it the quality or the quantity of rerolls?

I mean it's also a perspective thing. Let's say 40k currently has like 3 rerolls / faction of some kind and reduces that to 2 / faction. Hypotethically they reduced reroll abilities quite massively that way. It just still is oversaturated.

I wish rerolls in general were an uncommon or rare case. Game outcome aside, re-rolling takes time, maybe not much on an individual roll, but added up over the course of a game and for each player, it adds up. The game feels like it moves along quicker and smoother without an abundance of re-rolls.

tneva82 wrote:
And if entire army gets rerolls it's a) silly tough unit b) you are playing in planet bowling ball or blood angels fighting over 1 objective so you get to enjoy remaining 4

It does feel to me like the 'your whole army will nuke one unit' argument is basically assuming a completely clear board and no goal beyond removing the opponent's army... which is how math/theory discussions tend to go, but I find doesn't have much relevance to an appropriately set up table and multiple objectives.

One thing I haven't seen discussed much is that unlike bland army-wide re-rolls, more contingent re-rolls make target optimization significantly more difficult. Getting re-rolls against the infantry on an objective might not be so useful for your anti-tank specialists, or your unit that gets re-rolls while on the objective may need to leave it to get in range, or the unit you've chosen for Oath of Moment might be out of LOS or a suboptimal target profile for a given unit. And of course that's on top of the tactical considerations of removing units versus denying objectives. I suspect that in practice, even if re-rolls remain commonplace, it will be much harder to have it so that every unit is getting re-rolls while shooting its optimal target.

 catbarf wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
And if entire army gets rerolls it's a) silly tough unit b) you are playing in planet bowling ball or blood angels fighting over 1 objective so you get to enjoy remaining 4

It does feel to me like the 'your whole army will nuke one unit' argument is basically assuming a completely clear board and no goal beyond removing the opponent's army... which is how math/theory discussions tend to go, but I find doesn't have much relevance to an appropriately set up table and multiple objectives.

One thing I haven't seen discussed much is that unlike bland army-wide re-rolls, more contingent re-rolls make target optimization significantly more difficult. Getting re-rolls against the infantry on an objective might not be so useful for your anti-tank specialists, or your unit that gets re-rolls while on the objective may need to leave it to get in range, or the unit you've chosen for Oath of Moment might be out of LOS or a suboptimal target profile for a given unit. And of course that's on top of the tactical considerations of removing units versus denying objectives. I suspect that in practice, even if re-rolls remain commonplace, it will be much harder to have it so that every unit is getting re-rolls while shooting its optimal target.

I suspect that could be one of the annoying things about LEADERs being unable to move units. Much like the SM Doctrines, you're going to want to start those rerolls in the Devs/Assaults then to the Tacs, then to the Assaults/Devs based on your general plan/strengths.

 catbarf wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
And if entire army gets rerolls it's a) silly tough unit b) you are playing in planet bowling ball or blood angels fighting over 1 objective so you get to enjoy remaining 4

It does feel to me like the 'your whole army will nuke one unit' argument is basically assuming a completely clear board and no goal beyond removing the opponent's army...

The former is irrelevant because if you can't see the enemy then it doesn't matter if you re-roll everything or re-roll only 1s because you can't fully exploit your re-rolls either way. And the latter is obviously a big deal because you holding objectives is just one half of the mission the other is blasting the enemy off from theirs (aka removing the opponent's army). Or ensuing that the enemy doesn't blast you off from your objective by nuking their deathball or other big scary units. Killing is always involved.

 AtoMaki wrote:
The former is irrelevant because if you can't see the enemy then it doesn't matter if you re-roll everything or re-roll only 1s because you can't fully exploit your re-rolls either way.

I think you must be misunderstanding.

In 9th Ed if your whole army is getting re-rolls from auras, then any unit that can see any enemy benefits from the re-rolls. As long as each unit has something to shoot at, you can fully exploit your re-rolls.

In 10th if your re-rolls are contingent upon targeting a single unit via Oath of Moment, then only units that can see that enemy unit get the benefit. If only a third of your army can see it, you aren't getting anywhere near the full benefit.

That's a pretty enormous difference.

 AtoMaki wrote:
And the latter is obviously a big deal because you holding objectives is just one half of the mission the other is blasting the enemy off from theirs (aka removing the opponent's army). Or ensuing that the enemy doesn't blast you off from your objective by nuking their deathball or other big scary units. Killing is always involved.

Yeah, sure, but if all you do is maximize your damage output by nuking one unit at a time, you may end turn 4 with a mostly clean board but irrecoverably behind on points.

Sometimes targeting suboptimal units or forgoing maximum damage to gain a better position are necessary for scoring. Assumptions that hinge on the whole army targeting one unit are unrealistic.

 AtoMaki wrote:

Slipspace wrote:
I can get full re-rolls against a single target until it dies, then I get virtually none. That's just not in the same ballpark as easy access to at least re-roll 1s army wide, the whole time.

I would say nuking one unit with your entire army and full rerolls is the same ballpark as re-rolling a little bit for everyone all the time. Especially with the "less lethal" setting where wiping a unit and then having meaningful firepower to do more is supposedly no longer the norm.

I would say 'flim flam billy bam jim jam' too, but that doesn't make me correct.

 catbarf wrote:

Yeah, sure, but if all you do is maximize your damage output by nuking one unit at a time, you may end turn 4 with a mostly clean board but irrecoverably behind on points.

Then I'm going to win because Wipe Out as a victory condition is back on the menu. And it is unlikely that I'm that much behind on points (if et all) because I don't have to give up any mobility or much positioning for that nuking ability, I just get it for free each turn and since my enemy can't predict which unit I'm going to nuke (or how) their only counterplay is to cut back their own mobility and positioning freedom or else risk getting nuked.

These two (nuking one unit or re-rolling '1's for everyone) are like two positions on the same slider where you trade power for accessibility and any difference can be translated through this: you must see one unit but it gets nuked (that has good synergy with this whole "less lethal" angle), or you don't but the bonus will be much less impressive (that is better if your units have high base damage output, not so much if they are "less lethal"). They are basically the same thing, tho I would say the former has more power because it gives the player more agency via target selection.

Yea. Back on menu on open war most won't even play. Yey?

Also you get rerolls max 5 units. So only knights have to worry about that.

 AtoMaki wrote:

 catbarf wrote:

Yeah, sure, but if all you do is maximize your damage output by nuking one unit at a time, you may end turn 4 with a mostly clean board but irrecoverably behind on points.

Then I'm going to win because Wipe Out as a victory condition is back on the menu. And it is unlikely that I'm that much behind on points (if et all) because I don't have to give up any mobility or much positioning for that nuking ability, I just get it for free each turn and since my enemy can't predict which unit I'm going to nuke (or how) their only counterplay is to cut back their own mobility and positioning freedom or else risk getting nuked.

These two (nuking one unit or re-rolling '1's for everyone) are like two positions on the same slider where you trade power for accessibility and any difference can be translated through this: you must see one unit but it gets nuked (that has good synergy with this whole "less lethal" angle), or you don't but the bonus will be much less impressive (that is better if your units have high base damage output, not so much if they are "less lethal"). They are basically the same thing, tho I would say the former has more power because it gives the player more agency via target selection.

Just some food for thought - a recent ork tournament list which placed third brought a total of 19 units, up to 3 of those will become leaders soon. If you pick the five most expensive units from that army, for oath of moment, you get re-rolls against 40% of the army points-wise - which would also mean that two kill-rigs would have reached your lines and one was left to rampage through it unchecked of at least one turn. Two more units, one lead by a warboss and one lead by a weird boy would have to survive till

In other words, even if you maximize the efficiency of oath of moments, you will not have re-rerolls against 12 units of orks worth roughly 1100 points while also ignoring their most dangerous units longer than you should be ignoring them. Will a target priority focusing on not getting your face carved in by choppas, you'd probably have re-rolls against a lot less point, probably picking off the left-overs of 100 point units by turn 3.

That's a huge step down from what we have now.

 Jidmah wrote:
In other words, even if you maximize the efficiency of oath of moments, you will not have re-rerolls against 12 units of orks worth roughly 1100 points while also ignoring their most dangerous units longer than you should be ignoring them.

That's my point: you get more re-rolls against less units or less against more. And in the same way focusing down units won't save you from the choppas neither will semi-universally re-rolling only '1's. As the third place shows that. And this is in 9th edition, before getting totally "less lethal".

 catbarf wrote:
[

In 9th Ed if your whole army is getting re-rolls from auras, then any unit that can see any enemy benefits from the re-rolls. As long as each unit has something to shoot at, you can fully exploit your re-rolls.

In 10th if your re-rolls are contingent upon targeting a single unit via Oath of Moment, then only units that can see that enemy unit get the benefit. If only a third of your army can see it, you aren't getting anywhere near the full benefit.

That's a pretty enormous difference.

I would also point out your baseline assumption is a tough one. IF every unit is getting rerolls from Auras. 44x60 is 2640 square inches. Guilliman's aura was roughly 200 square inches. Adding another 200 square inches from a Chapter Master + Lieutenant does not vastly increase aura coverage. Objective Campers, Flanking units etc. were frequently Aura free.

The scoring units weren't the primary damage dealers and the secondaries like codex warfare played into having a bunch of backline stuff. It's also east to pick up rerolls from a dreadnought.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
The scoring units weren't the primary damage dealers and the secondaries like codex warfare played into having a bunch of backline stuff. It's also east to pick up rerolls from a dreadnought.

That was some of my point - the scoring units don't count - but they're part of the "whole army" - and this distinction comes and goes when talking about Aura rerolls vs Oath. With Oath the scoring units get the rerolls, with the bubbles they usually didn't. With Oath, something like half your army gets the rerolls but it won't matter due to S, or LOS or whatever. At best you can Double Oath with Guilliman, take out the tank, then use the scoring/etc units to take out a blob.

You only needed a tiny bit of the base of one model in a squad for the entire squad to get the rerolls. If your reroll auras are in the middle of the table on your side they will be able to reach a huge amount of models. You don't need to reach into the opponent's deployment zone or in the corners of your own zone since you most likely didn't have a lot of fire power there and just had some objective camping/screening scouts/tacticals/servitors/intercessors that wouldn't see or contribute meaningfully anyway.

Take Gully and place him in the middle of the table at the edge of your deployment zone. Then measure out 6" to the sides and just at the 6" line you put down the edge of the base of a marine. Then space out the rest of the squad at max distance and suddenly you can have models over 34" apart, if only using small 5 man squads both benefiting from that 6" aura. The effective area that covers is huge when you consider a single model just needs to toe in. If only models wholly within 6" were affected than it would matter that it was less than 10% of the table covered but as it wasn't like that you could on an empty table cover almost, maybe even all without going above 32mm 10 man squads, the entire area with models benefiting from it.

If using 2 10 man tactical squads you could even have the heavy weapon guy in each squad stand outside the table even with the wide deployment and still have full rerolls. If my math is right they could have 72" of space between them and the table is only 60" wide. So even before they made the tables a foot smaller that aura could still reach outside of both sides of the deployment zone on dawn of war deployment.

As a BA player I know how easy it was in both 8th and 9th to have Death Company be able to get their rerolls despite them moving 12 inches more than the buffing characters at turn 1 and then charge another 5-12", outpacing the models buffing them by almost 20". You just had to have a few models with chainswords stay back and string along to give the thunderhammers the buffs they needed to obliterate anything.

Klickor wrote:
You only needed a tiny bit of the base of one model in a squad for the entire squad to get the rerolls. If your reroll auras are in the middle of the table on your side they will be able to reach a huge amount of models. You don't need to reach into the opponent's deployment zone or in the corners of your own zone since you most likely didn't have a lot of fire power there and just had some objective camping/screening scouts/tacticals/servitors/intercessors

Check out the rules for the new gambit thing - you may want to pay more attention to the corners coming up.

As a BA player I know how easy it was in both 8th and 9th to have Death Company be able to get their rerolls despite them moving 12 inches more than the buffing characters at turn 1 and then charge another 5-12", outpacing the models buffing them by almost 20". You just had to have a few models with chainswords stay back and string along to give the thunderhammers the buffs they needed to obliterate anything.

You may also want to double check the new rules for charging/piling, and Unit Coherency for units with more than 7 models.

Breton wrote:

Klickor wrote:
You only needed a tiny bit of the base of one model in a squad for the entire squad to get the rerolls. If your reroll auras are in the middle of the table on your side they will be able to reach a huge amount of models. You don't need to reach into the opponent's deployment zone or in the corners of your own zone since you most likely didn't have a lot of fire power there and just had some objective camping/screening scouts/tacticals/servitors/intercessors

Check out the rules for the new gambit thing - you may want to pay more attention to the corners coming up.

As a BA player I know how easy it was in both 8th and 9th to have Death Company be able to get their rerolls despite them moving 12 inches more than the buffing characters at turn 1 and then charge another 5-12", outpacing the models buffing them by almost 20". You just had to have a few models with chainswords stay back and string along to give the thunderhammers the buffs they needed to obliterate anything.

You may also want to double check the new rules for charging/piling, and Unit Coherency for units with more than 7 models.

An interesting factor here is marine melee armies. Oath totally disincentivizes melee, because you can't fit all that melee into that one unit or be in the area all the time. I'll be interested to see what people do. Blood Angels might have more diversity in their lists as a result.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Breton wrote:

Klickor wrote:
You only needed a tiny bit of the base of one model in a squad for the entire squad to get the rerolls. If your reroll auras are in the middle of the table on your side they will be able to reach a huge amount of models. You don't need to reach into the opponent's deployment zone or in the corners of your own zone since you most likely didn't have a lot of fire power there and just had some objective camping/screening scouts/tacticals/servitors/intercessors

Check out the rules for the new gambit thing - you may want to pay more attention to the corners coming up.

As a BA player I know how easy it was in both 8th and 9th to have Death Company be able to get their rerolls despite them moving 12 inches more than the buffing characters at turn 1 and then charge another 5-12", outpacing the models buffing them by almost 20". You just had to have a few models with chainswords stay back and string along to give the thunderhammers the buffs they needed to obliterate anything.

You may also want to double check the new rules for charging/piling, and Unit Coherency for units with more than 7 models.

An interesting factor here is marine melee armies. Oath totally disincentivizes melee, because you can't fit all that melee into that one unit or be in the area all the time. I'll be interested to see what people do. Blood Angels might have more diversity in their lists as a result.

You really think Ba players will suddenly realize that they also have access to shooty units??

ccs wrote:
You really think Ba players will suddenly realize that they also have access to shooty units??

That they're encouraged to use them. Otherwise they're not capitalizing on Oath.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

ccs wrote:
You really think Ba players will suddenly realize that they also have access to shooty units??

That they're encouraged to use them. Otherwise they're not capitalizing on Oath.

Most aren't going to do that you know. They'll keep right on running their army as is. Some will complain how they can't get full use out of Oath - but they won't change. Others will just do their best with what they've got. A few will include more shooty - they will be regarded as odd by the rest of the BA players.

 Daedalus81 wrote:


An interesting factor here is marine melee armies. Oath totally disincentivizes melee, because you can't fit all that melee into that one unit or be in the area all the time. I'll be interested to see what people do. Blood Angels might have more diversity in their lists as a result.

Lets wait and see Astorath and Lemartes. They could get some Oath expansion from there to make up for their more melee oriented limitations.

But I suspect they're not going to be all fight. Fight vs-vehicle is pretty limited, and all but disappears after Chainfists. I suspect Thunderhammers get an Errata pretty quickly. But even then, you're still looking at needing some vehicle mounted weaponry to use on other vehicles. All Infantry 8/9E style BA armies are likely to have a rough time vs an All Knight army as I'm not sure they can survive the foot stomping, and titanic chain swords/power fists long enough to get their D2 S8 attacks through on T12 W25ish targets.

With the monster / vehicle shooting into / out of combat I can see brutalis dreads popping in more over straight SG. Tomorrow should be a fun day to go over a whole faction finally and piece the puzzle together. My buddy and I are going to play a mirror match and just use current points.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
With the monster / vehicle shooting into / out of combat I can see brutalis dreads popping in more over straight SG. Tomorrow should be a fun day to go over a whole faction finally and piece the puzzle together. My buddy and I are going to play a mirror match and just use current points.

Yeah I can see Redemptors, Brutalis, and especially for BA with Death Company/Furioso/Libby Dreads to lean into them - plus potential Redemptor replacement/update/upgrades for the chapter specific data sheets. I mean, who didn't see the Furioso/Bjorn/Brutalis bits connections? But Melee space, and retribution/attrition is still too much for a vs-Knights game I think.

Here's the Tyranids list of rerolls:

Old One Eye when leading Carnifexes
Melee Warriors if they pick it over rerolling saves of 1
Genestealers get full reroll wounds on objectives
Exocrine let other nids reroll 1s against something it hit
one enhancement ( one roll once per turn )

In 9th it was :

Hive Tyrant
Malanthrope ( if it killed something )
Swarmlord
Tyranid Prime
Winged Hive Tyrant
any model with LASH WHIP.
Prehensile pincer tail
Gargantuan scything talons, Grasping tail, Hierodule scything talons, Massive scything sickle-talons, Broodlord claws and talons, Wrecker claws
Leviathan
Gorgon
Hydra relic
Hydra strat
Voracious Appetite strat
Heightened Senses trait
Pathogenesis relics
Maw claws relic

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Here's the Tyranids list of rerolls:

Old One Eye when leading Carnifexes
Melee Warriors if they pick it over rerolling saves of 1
Genestealers get full reroll wounds on objectives
Exocrine let other nids reroll 1s against something it hit
one enhancement ( one roll once per turn )

Plus all those Twin-Linked weapons.

 AtoMaki wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Here's the Tyranids list of rerolls:

Old One Eye when leading Carnifexes
Melee Warriors if they pick it over rerolling saves of 1
Genestealers get full reroll wounds on objectives
Exocrine let other nids reroll 1s against something it hit
one enhancement ( one roll once per turn )

Plus all those Twin-Linked weapons.

True - easy to miss those. At the same time those are weapons that are getting their shots cut in half so depending on which part of rerolls you're worried about it's either good or bad.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Here's the Tyranids list of rerolls:

Old One Eye when leading Carnifexes
Melee Warriors if they pick it over rerolling saves of 1
Genestealers get full reroll wounds on objectives
Exocrine let other nids reroll 1s against something it hit
one enhancement ( one roll once per turn )

Plus all those Twin-Linked weapons.

True - easy to miss those. At the same time those are weapons that are getting their shots cut in half so depending on which part of rerolls you're worried about it's either good or bad.

It may turn out well for Nids, most of their mid-sized monsters CCW is S9 swords/swords/talons 5+ Reroll to wound.

ccs wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

ccs wrote:
You really think Ba players will suddenly realize that they also have access to shooty units??

That they're encouraged to use them. Otherwise they're not capitalizing on Oath.

Most aren't going to do that you know. They'll keep right on running their army as is. Some will complain how they can't get full use out of Oath - but they won't change. Others will just do their best with what they've got. A few will include more shooty - they will be regarded as odd by the rest of the BA players.

And their win rate will drop while using the background-ignoring all melee army. Good.