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Tsagualsa wrote:

princeyg wrote:
Ok, so its not the worlds best wage, but i will say, that the average wage in the Uk right now is somewhere in the region of 25k a year. In Wales, where I live, its closer to 22k. In London its a lot higher, but so is the cost of living (hence the old london living allowance).

I would ask the posters here what they would consider a decent lkving wage seeing as nurses in wales get an average of £33,000 -£35,000 per year and that is considered one of the most stressful/labour intensive jobs available.

Please note, I am not disparaging anyone here, I'm honestly interested in peoples opinions.

Neither am I defending GW. if it becomes apparent that this is a low wage then I will fully accept these arguments.

Glassdoor puts the average salary for Game Designers (mostly of the digital kind, of course) for the UK at £33,000 with around £2,500 additional cash compensations. That's an average that his already heavily slanted downwards by low-level mobile game companies and such. General 'Analysts' sit at £40,000 and Product Designers at £55,000.

GW, by their own admission, are looking for a full-time position, willingness to relocate, with design responsibilities, for someone to keep track of the whole competitive scene, which might include travel and/or work in different timezones and such, with analytical skills, design skill and a proven track record of tournament wins and experience.

If that rumoured salary is true, it's basically a joke for the package of skills and relevant experiences they want.

fair enough, it is a bad deal then. thanks .

ps, just wanted to thank everyone for answering directly and without sarcasm.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Does this mean someone lost their job over the 10th edition launch datacards? The crowd who went to the first hypercompetitive event this weekend in Salzburg sure thinks that they should

On a scale of Franz josef to austria -hungary collapsing how bad was the feedback torwards gw?

So only now they want to start introducing "consistency across all aspects of the game". Hilarious.

And yeah, for GW you better bring 20 years of industry experience for a position they pay like an entry level intern. GW doing GW thigns, as usual...

Not Online!!! wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Does this mean someone lost their job over the 10th edition launch datacards? The crowd who went to the first hypercompetitive event this weekend in Salzburg sure thinks that they should

On a scale of Franz josef to austria -hungary collapsing how bad was the feedback torwards gw?

Only saw the conclusion of the Eldar player placed 8th: "Still, a good start for the tournament season. Can go on like this"

Not Online!!! wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Does this mean someone lost their job over the 10th edition launch datacards? The crowd who went to the first hypercompetitive event this weekend in Salzburg sure thinks that they should

On a scale of Franz josef to austria -hungary collapsing how bad was the feedback torwards gw?

Bad enough they released a balance patch today specifically addressing issues that were blatant in that event, and of course utterly failing to fix them

 lord_blackfang wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Does this mean someone lost their job over the 10th edition launch datacards? The crowd who went to the first hypercompetitive event this weekend in Salzburg sure thinks that they should

On a scale of Franz josef to austria -hungary collapsing how bad was the feedback torwards gw?

Bad enough they released a balance patch today specifically addressing issues that were blatant in that event, and of course utterly failing to fix them

So not even on the scale anymore.. oof

princeyg wrote:
Ok, so its not the worlds best wage, but i will say, that the average wage in the Uk right now is somewhere in the region of 25k a year. In Wales, where I live, its closer to 22k. In London its a lot higher, but so is the cost of living (hence the old london living allowance).

I would ask the posters here what they would consider a decent lkving wage seeing as nurses in wales get an average of £33,000 -£35,000 per year and that is considered one of the most stressful/labour intensive jobs available.

Please note, I am not disparaging anyone here, I'm honestly interested in peoples opinions.

Neither am I defending GW. if it becomes apparent that this is a low wage then I will fully accept these arguments.

Firstly - the pay for nurses is actually worse than you think. That average figure above includes the senior roles like practitioners and matrons, who can reach relatively high pay. However there isn't lot of them, and a Band 5 NHS nurse - by far the most common postion - will earn around £27.5 - 32k depending on experience and area of the country. Source: my wife was recently on a picket line

But onto my main point. I think with your post you've touched onto a larger problem here in how the hobby community discusses issues like this.

By it's nature this hobby attracts customers from all over the world and tends to favour people with more disposable income, and both of which can heavily distort perceptions. I've noticed a borderline-toxic tendency in these conversations to disparage anything percieved as a low income, as if earning £25-30k in Nottingham means you're going to be living in a cardboard box down by the river. Last night in Discord I saw this job posting being discussed last night by a largely-American crowd with no clue on UK pay or cost of living, making statements like "they need to offer at least 80k if they want anyone to get out of bed for that". Anyone living near Lenton is going to laugh at an idea like that, but it can definitely seem reasonable if you're from central London, or Amsterdam, or California.

Meanwhile some others are going to be reading these threads and feeling awful about their own employment situation because their income (which may be perfectly fine for where they live in the UK) is being looked down on by others in totally different living situations.

Let's all (and this isn't directed to anyone in particular) take a breath and think who else is going to read what you're writing before posting.

Well, corporations in general will try their hardest to underpay staff regardless of the situation, income, or value they add to the company. Part of their nature is exploiting their workforce to the best of the ability as cut costs to them are the same as profit. Pretty much every worker outside of management is underpaid considering it is their work that allows the company to do anything.

Don't forget also, if someone actually DOES swoop in and solve all of the balance issues at GW, that will become the expectation - the bare minimum. It would actually incentivize GW to keep hunting for eager players willing to under-sell their labor.

I'd love to be surprised, see them offering drastically higher wages for the position, but unless someone knows the actual number the 25k is the best we have to work with. As far as I can remember, GW prefers to offer one off windfall bonuses in place of higher wages - I think they had big announcements about doing that once or twice.

 xttz wrote:


By it's nature this hobby attracts customers from all over the world and tends to favour people with more disposable income, and both of which can heavily distort perceptions. I've noticed a borderline-toxic tendency in these conversations to disparage anything percieved as a low income, as if earning £25-30k in Nottingham means you're going to be living in a cardboard box down by the river. Last night in Discord I saw this job posting being discussed last night by a largely-American crowd with no clue on UK pay or cost of living, making statements like "they need to offer at least 80k if they want anyone to get out of bed for that". Anyone living near Lenton is going to laugh at an idea like that, but it can definitely seem reasonable if you're from central London, or Amsterdam, or California.

Meanwhile some others are going to be reading these threads and feeling awful about their own employment situation because their income (which may be perfectly fine for where they live in the UK) is being looked down on by others in totally different living situations.

Let's all (and this isn't directed to anyone in particular) take a breath and think who else is going to read what you're writing before posting.

Whilst I fully understand what you're saying and I respect everyone out there working, no matter the role or salary. We need and could not function without shelf stackers, till people, cleaners etc that tend to be at the lower end of the scale.

The big bit that is relevant here though is relevant stresses, expertise and pressures involved in the job. Nobody is saying a min wage job makes them a worthless person, what we are saying is that the supposed wage for a GW games designer isn't worth the relative stress and entry criteria.

Imagine having to read being slagged off every day on the sites that discuss the thing you love. It will, I dare say, be an utterly miserable role to have.

Dudeface wrote:

 xttz wrote:


By it's nature this hobby attracts customers from all over the world and tends to favour people with more disposable income, and both of which can heavily distort perceptions. I've noticed a borderline-toxic tendency in these conversations to disparage anything percieved as a low income, as if earning £25-30k in Nottingham means you're going to be living in a cardboard box down by the river. Last night in Discord I saw this job posting being discussed last night by a largely-American crowd with no clue on UK pay or cost of living, making statements like "they need to offer at least 80k if they want anyone to get out of bed for that". Anyone living near Lenton is going to laugh at an idea like that, but it can definitely seem reasonable if you're from central London, or Amsterdam, or California.

Meanwhile some others are going to be reading these threads and feeling awful about their own employment situation because their income (which may be perfectly fine for where they live in the UK) is being looked down on by others in totally different living situations.

Let's all (and this isn't directed to anyone in particular) take a breath and think who else is going to read what you're writing before posting.

Whilst I fully understand what you're saying and I respect everyone out there working, no matter the role or salary. We need and could not function without shelf stackers, till people, cleaners etc that tend to be at the lower end of the scale.

The big bit that is relevant here though is relevant stresses, expertise and pressures involved in the job. Nobody is saying a min wage job makes them a worthless person, what we are saying is that the supposed wage for a GW games designer isn't worth the relative stress and entry criteria.

Imagine having to read being slagged off every day on the sites that discuss the thing you love. It will, I dare say, be an utterly miserable role to have.

That's why it's a bit of folk wisdom to never make your hobby your job. Even if the customers/community were a bit... jollier than the Warhammer community is, the pressures and worries that come along with it being a job have a tendency to drain your enjoyment in a short amount of time. And by the way, from what you can glance online, the people in the actual logistics and sales queues at GW seem to get paid (much?) better and more according to market standards, it's mostly the design and creative side of things that gets short-changed.

 xttz wrote:


But onto my main point. I think with your post you've touched onto a larger problem here in how the hobby community discusses issues like this.

By it's nature this hobby attracts customers from all over the world and tends to favour people with more disposable income, and both of which can heavily distort perceptions. I've noticed a borderline-toxic tendency in these conversations to disparage anything percieved as a low income, as if earning £25-30k in Nottingham means you're going to be living in a cardboard box down by the river. Last night in Discord I saw this job posting being discussed last night by a largely-American crowd with no clue on UK pay or cost of living, making statements like "they need to offer at least 80k if they want anyone to get out of bed for that". Anyone living near Lenton is going to laugh at an idea like that, but it can definitely seem reasonable if you're from central London, or Amsterdam, or California.

Meanwhile some others are going to be reading these threads and feeling awful about their own employment situation because their income (which may be perfectly fine for where they live in the UK) is being looked down on by others in totally different living situations.

Let's all (and this isn't directed to anyone in particular) take a breath and think who else is going to read what you're writing before posting.

I agree that £25k is not a terrible salary and it certainly isn't going to put you on the poverty line in the Nottingham area. I've experienced a similar issue to you in discussing salaries with Americans, probably because working conditions in the UK with things like annual leave and not needing to worry about health benefits can heavily skew perceptions of what is reasonable, before you even get into differences in cost and style of living.

That said, the list of skills and experience listed in that job are way above what I would expect for £25k a year. This is a job where you are responsible for one of the most difficult parts of running the world's most popular tabletop wargame. The decision-making and project management requirements alone would put you much closer to, if not over, £30k in the organisation I work for. In addition, many people taking on a £25k job with responsibilities similar to this will almost certainly have an identified promotion path, so it's not such a big problem getting a lowish salary in order to get your foot in the door. From the testimony we have from ex-Design Studio staff it seems like not only is there no real promotion pathway laid out, they don't even seem to have much of a salary structure in the first place, with people doing very similar jobs on different salaries. Then there's the requirement to relocate to Nottingham, which seems pretty short-sighted in the modern world.

Slipspace wrote:

 xttz wrote:


But onto my main point. I think with your post you've touched onto a larger problem here in how the hobby community discusses issues like this.

By it's nature this hobby attracts customers from all over the world and tends to favour people with more disposable income, and both of which can heavily distort perceptions. I've noticed a borderline-toxic tendency in these conversations to disparage anything percieved as a low income, as if earning £25-30k in Nottingham means you're going to be living in a cardboard box down by the river. Last night in Discord I saw this job posting being discussed last night by a largely-American crowd with no clue on UK pay or cost of living, making statements like "they need to offer at least 80k if they want anyone to get out of bed for that". Anyone living near Lenton is going to laugh at an idea like that, but it can definitely seem reasonable if you're from central London, or Amsterdam, or California.

Meanwhile some others are going to be reading these threads and feeling awful about their own employment situation because their income (which may be perfectly fine for where they live in the UK) is being looked down on by others in totally different living situations.

Let's all (and this isn't directed to anyone in particular) take a breath and think who else is going to read what you're writing before posting.

I agree that £25k is not a terrible salary and it certainly isn't going to put you on the poverty line in the Nottingham area. I've experienced a similar issue to you in discussing salaries with Americans, probably because working conditions in the UK with things like annual leave and not needing to worry about health benefits can heavily skew perceptions of what is reasonable, before you even get into differences in cost and style of living.

That said, the list of skills and experience listed in that job are way above what I would expect for £25k a year. This is a job where you are responsible for one of the most difficult parts of running the world's most popular tabletop wargame. The decision-making and project management requirements alone would put you much closer to, if not over, £30k in the organisation I work for. In addition, many people taking on a £25k job with responsibilities similar to this will almost certainly have an identified promotion path, so it's not such a big problem getting a lowish salary in order to get your foot in the door. From the testimony we have from ex-Design Studio staff it seems like not only is there no real promotion pathway laid out, they don't even seem to have much of a salary structure in the first place, with people doing very similar jobs on different salaries. Then there's the requirement to relocate to Nottingham, which seems pretty short-sighted in the modern world.

About the 'poverty line' thing:

I looked it up before commenting, because i like facts. I checked three different sources, and each of them gave total costs of living for Nottingham as ~ 1500+ pounds for everything including rent and utilities. One of these sources was oriented especially towards students, so i don't think they're aiming for especially high-class accomodations etc. For a single person with no dependants, 25k become almost exactly 21k after taxes. 21k breaks down to 1750 pounds a month, so going by the above numbers, you're only 250 pounds up each month, or 3k a year. This does not take the cost of relocating etc. into account. Can you live on that? Absolutely, because again, everything you need day-to-day is included in the cost of living. But on the other hand, you're not living comfortably or with a lot of financial safety: as i said before, you're one broken down car or e.g. washing machine away from major problems, at least on short notice. It's a position that would maybe be attractive or tenable for a recent graduate or someone just starting out, but not for the seasoned, experienced professional that they seem to be looking for. I don't know enough about the UK system in general to comment on how this position at that pay would be evaluated for someone with a family to take care of, so no opening of that particular can of worms from me.

GW are assuming whatever "staff discount" they are offering which will be part of this is likely a significant draw for anyone even remotely likely to apply though

and presumably will assume they will have several applicants were are able to unstick their tongue from the bus window to get to the interview and as such will fill the position with someone who will broadly do as they are told at that salary

If you want to be a game designer... do this for a few years to pay the bills while developing your own designs, build up contacts in the industry, eventually crowd-fund your own game design with the "GW game designer for 2 years" giving you some credibility.

It's not a bad path if you're in your 20s and that's your dream. It's bad for GW of course because it means it inevitably attracts people who just want it as a stepping stone.

Speaking as someone in the UK, even with the current level of inflation I don't think you'd need to spend £1500 a month to live in Nottingham unless you were renting somewhere in the upper bracket of potential properties.

The issue though is the rampant inflation of recent times. £25k today is now the equivalent of around £18k in 2015. Its therefore becoming quite a low wage. If however you inflation uplift £25k to say £32-33k today, I don't think its an unreasonable salary for who the advert is aimed at.
Which I think is the disagreement. I don't think they are looking for an experienced professional. They are looking for an enthusiastic nerd - probably mid to late 20s, with no family commitments.

I mean there's no obvious management responsibility. There's no required qualifications or special training. The only experience is having played some 40k and a track record of flushing some weighted dice down the toilet.

Salaries etc aside, I totally understand why they would need somebody to look at tournament results and meta but I really wish GW would stop focusing on tournament results for matched play rules and perceived "balance".

Tournaments do not represent the majority of matched play games and most tournaments don't even use the current rules (something is always changed at most tournaments I've been to).

GW should stop allowing its game to be influenced by tournament play and focus on balancing the rules as they are now, not balanced compared to how they are being played in tournaments.

The constant meta-chasing is what put me off 9th edition and we are already seeing the same happen in 10th - rules changes already based on initial tournament results which are skewed at best.

StraightSilver wrote:
Salaries etc aside, I totally understand why they would need somebody to look at tournament results and meta but I really wish GW would stop focusing on tournament results for matched play rules and perceived "balance".

Tournaments do not represent the majority of matched play games and most tournaments don't even use the current rules (something is always changed at most tournaments I've been to).

GW should stop allowing its game to be influenced by tournament play and focus on balancing the rules as they are now, not balanced compared to how they are being played in tournaments.

The constant meta-chasing is what put me off 9th edition and we are already seeing the same happen in 10th - rules changes already based on initial tournament results which are skewed at best.

Well, there's the data you want, and there's the data you have... tournament results is a big pile of information they can access in a somewhat-structured form and essentially for free, while other forms of data collection bring at least some sort of associated cost and have their own problems (good luck on getting anything approaching reality from a survey, for example). So the 'best' way of going about it - in the corporate sense where 'free' is automatically very good and being seen doing something is more important than actual results - is taking what you can get with almost no effort instead of doing independent, and comparatively expensive, research.

Pay for peanuts, get peanuts.

If monet wasn't an issue, and I lived in Nottingham, it'd be worth a shot.

As it is, asking to move to Nottingham on what is going to be a low to average wage... nope!

GW can afford to pay a lot more, and get better qualified/experienced people, which ultimately helps them.

Dudeface wrote:

 kodos wrote:
some thoughts:

that GW is searching for a professional playtester after the game is released and most of it printed tells me to not expect a lot in the next 6-12 months and that even with this new position the game gets necessary changes by the time it is halfway thru and work on 11th already ongoing

that they want them to settle in Nottingham while this position is for someone heavily invested into the game, so a person that would have everything necessary to do it at home means it likely someone already in that area or a person that wants to get into the game design community and "game designer at GW" makes a good entry


but at least GW acknowledge the state of the game and that it needs to do something about it

Honestly the recruitment criteria if the supposed salary is true is utterly mental. To relocate to a new city for a low paid job for someone with a proven track record of 40k competitive event wins is like a goldilocks situation.
.

Truthfully, parts of it read like jobs I've applied for in the past- little fingerprints that suggest they have someone and the job posting was specifically written for that person, but they're legally required to post the job publicly anyway.

They'll take submissions of course, and even do a few interviews, but [Bob] has the job, unless things unexpectedly go to cack.

StraightSilver wrote:
Salaries etc aside, I totally understand why they would need somebody to look at tournament results and meta but I really wish GW would stop focusing on tournament results for matched play rules and perceived "balance".

Tournaments do not represent the majority of matched play games and most tournaments don't even use the current rules (something is always changed at most tournaments I've been to).

GW should stop allowing its game to be influenced by tournament play and focus on balancing the rules as they are now, not balanced compared to how they are being played in tournaments.

The constant meta-chasing is what put me off 9th edition and we are already seeing the same happen in 10th - rules changes already based on initial tournament results which are skewed at best.

insert why not both meme

Many other companies that care about the health of their game systems balance the game for all the many ways the game is commonly played. WOTC balances Magic for sealed, draft, commander, standard, modern, vintage, pauper,... With different levels of balance and priority of course, but all things are considered to some degree. GW can't even get one format right sometimes.

Magic being balanced? That's a good joke.

compared to 40k, Magic has perfect balance

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
Magic being balanced? That's a good joke.

It's 'balanced' in the sense that it's working as intended, i.e. purposefully upsetting the balance every new release to shift the meta and make people buy new stuff. Also, this 'balance' is reached by banning everything that makes problems, and it also means that 99% of the cards are only useable in standard or other current-meta formats because they're too underpowered to perform in the eternal or historic formats. Not at all how Warhammer should work.

There's multiple valid ways to play. Player skill matters a lot. And in many formats you can be casually competitive for less than the cost of a Combat Patrol Box.

If 40k players were only so lucky.

40k is like Magic if everyone was forced to play CEDH(competitive commander). Where you need $1500 of fast mana to even think about trying to play. Versus casual commander where you can get by with a $40 dollar precon and about that much in additional singles.

StraightSilver wrote:
Salaries etc aside, I totally understand why they would need somebody to look at tournament results and meta but I really wish GW would stop focusing on tournament results for matched play rules and perceived "balance".

Tournaments do not represent the majority of matched play games and most tournaments don't even use the current rules (something is always changed at most tournaments I've been to).

GW should stop allowing its game to be influenced by tournament play and focus on balancing the rules as they are now, not balanced compared to how they are being played in tournaments.

I'm curious how you think they would do it differently? They're essentially using the same rule set and figures, they're just "stressed" more in a tournament setting. I'm very much in agreement that GW shouldn't be focusing on tournament play, but when it comes to game balance, I'm struggling to see what that looks like in terms of actions they could take?

StraightSilver wrote:
Salaries etc aside, I totally understand why they would need somebody to look at tournament results and meta but I really wish GW would stop focusing on tournament results for matched play rules and perceived "balance".

That's not the problem. The problem is they're incapable of looking outside thr number and not understanding why things happen.

Look at the current Wraithknight fix. They don't understand what they do.

deano2099 wrote:

StraightSilver wrote:
Salaries etc aside, I totally understand why they would need somebody to look at tournament results and meta but I really wish GW would stop focusing on tournament results for matched play rules and perceived "balance".

Tournaments do not represent the majority of matched play games and most tournaments don't even use the current rules (something is always changed at most tournaments I've been to).

GW should stop allowing its game to be influenced by tournament play and focus on balancing the rules as they are now, not balanced compared to how they are being played in tournaments.

I'm curious how you think they would do it differently? They're essentially using the same rule set and figures, they're just "stressed" more in a tournament setting. I'm very much in agreement that GW shouldn't be focusing on tournament play, but when it comes to game balance, I'm struggling to see what that looks like in terms of actions they could take?

the usual argument is: no one plays to win a game outside tournaments but for fun, so you need to measure the "fun" and how often the factions wins

TBH, I'm not really sure rule designers do get a high salary anywhere in the game industry, be it "matched play" or not. It's not a GW centered problem from my point of view.

As for the analysis of data tournaments for "balance", I'm not surprised they use it on top of their list. It's the only reliable data they can easily gather and get exploitable information, after all - rest is too subjective and not enough empirical.

Some here make fun of it here, but the truth is, it's actually a good way to make your name in the market and a lot of young people rather see the passion first (and their dream) than what they should be paid for the amount of work it implies. Sadly, but who can really blame them ?

Well, I hope it will help someone to rise in the future.

For Hire. Integral Developer. 25k salary.


Eat your heart out Hemmingway.

And then companies be like "There is a worker shortage, we can't find anyone."

The salary is insulting to be honest. That's like appropiate for a student assistant to an actual game designer.