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I'm especially fond of the removal of the Primaris Company Champion as a separate choice.
That isn't all that grim. A lot we already knew about (the various units getting squatted), but according to that, characters are now just their rank. Now distinction between 'Captain' and 'Primaris Captain.' Same for Lt., Chaplain pr Librarian. That's actually a huge improvement and reduction in bloat. Just use whatever model you have/like. Reiver and phobos LTs are the only real exception.
Really, same for relic terminators vs terminators (and the lack of separate 'primaris terminators). Just... use them as terminators.
Only real kick is Old dreads (except venerable), but that's something we already knew.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/09/19 02:29:26
Voss wrote: That's actually a huge improvement and reduction in bloat.
Until the options for these units - especially Captains - only feature the weapons available on Primaris miniatures, instantly invalidating all the non-Primaris Captain models that feature any variation on these (Combi-Weapons, Thunder Hammers, Lightning Claws, etc.).
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2023/09/19 02:32:13
Voss wrote: That's actually a huge improvement and reduction in bloat.
Until the options for these units - especially Captains - only feature the weapons available on Primaris miniatures, instantly invalidating all the non-Primaris Captain models that feature any variation on these (Combi-Weapons, Thunder Hammers, Lightning Claws, etc.).
I'd be more sad about that if the space marine melee options were worth writing home about and if the new primaris jump captain didn't have everything worth taking.
Because, really... Bemoaning a lack of combi-weapons on a character? In 10th? That's just complaining to complain.
Voss wrote: That's actually a huge improvement and reduction in bloat.
Until the options for these units - especially Captains - only feature the weapons available on Primaris miniatures, instantly invalidating all the non-Primaris Captain models that feature any variation on these (Combi-Weapons, Thunder Hammers, Lightning Claws, etc.).
I'd be more sad about that if the space marine melee options were worth writing home about and if the new primaris jump captain didn't have everything worth taking.
Because, really... Bemoaning a lack of combi-weapons on a character? In 10th? That's just complaining to complain.
Finally, a reason to make peace with the lack of weapon options. GW just made sure they were all worthless.
Man, the Landspeeders going to Legends is going to hurt. Makes me wonder what they'll do with the weird Dark Angels variants.
I had converted up a Primaris Outrider attack bike. Looks like it will now be a counts-as Invader ATV.
Relic terminators? I had some converted up using Tortuga Bay minis. The only odd duck will be the one with an autocannon (Inceptor heavy bolter arm with autocannon barrel). I guess he could just count as an assault cannon.
In 20 years playing I've never used command squads. Looks like I'll have to now to save a few minis.
I guess my Terminators' lightening claws are now power fists (except for the sergeant which is a sword), the autocannon is an assault cannon, the plasma blaster is a storm bolter, and the grenade harness doesn't exist.
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: I wonder if the Deathwing Detatchment will be better than this 1st CO Detatchment when the DA get their book.
for dark angel fans I sure hope so.
One would certainly hope. Here's hoping the unshown Detachments help make up for it. Though the FIrestorm one seems neat enough.
Here's the rumour that was floating around a few days before this WarCom article was posted. A separate post also said that Oath was changing exactly as previewed.
6 new detachments, 6 strats, 4 enhancements each. AOC in every detachment
1st Company - Veterans and terminators.
Stormlance - "White Scars", focuses on mounted units. Advance and charge, and assault after falling back.
Vanguard Spearhead - "Raven Guard". This is the scout/phobos detachment.
Firestorm Assault force - "Salamander", focuses on infantry and transports?
Ironstorm Spearhead - "Iron Hands", Vehicles and walkers
Anvil Siege Force - "Imperial fists". Gunline + support. All ranged weapons are heavy, and if they are already heavy they get +1 wound when stationary.
Gladius - "Ultras/vanilla marines".
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/09/19 07:31:43
leopard wrote: Youngest with his Blood Angels is essentially fuming about this, he does have some NuMarines but the bulk of what he has is Mk VII armour stuff
Still I had to laugh, not that this actually helped
time to switch to horus Heresy I guess
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
leopard wrote: Youngest with his Blood Angels is essentially fuming about this, he does have some NuMarines but the bulk of what he has is Mk VII armour stuff
Still I had to laugh, not that this actually helped
time to switch to horus Heresy I guess
Funny you mention that, with the whole "legends" thing a few months ago he wanted a pair of Whirlwinds, because he likes his cheese mature, and was quite ready to go an buy a pair of them. he decided instead to go looking for STL files and as such has a pair of Deimos pattern ones now that cost a lot less
GW lose out, which is entirely their choice, and he got a pair of models he is quite happy with as his small Heresy era force grows
I'm especially fond of the removal of the Primaris Company Champion as a separate choice.
That isn't all that grim. A lot we already knew about (the various units getting squatted), but according to that, characters are now just their rank. Now distinction between 'Captain' and 'Primaris Captain.' Same for Lt., Chaplain pr Librarian. That's actually a huge improvement and reduction in bloat. Just use whatever model you have/like. Reiver and phobos LTs are the only real exception.
Really, same for relic terminators vs terminators (and the lack of separate 'primaris terminators). Just... use them as terminators.
Only real kick is Old dreads (except venerable), but that's something we already knew.
I see this as all good news. Nothing in there is a surprise and I like the primaris title removal. It’s time to accept primaris ARE the marines now.
I’m good with removing the distinction, but would like to keep what legacy options we can. And some of the new primaris toys are not good swaps for the old stuff.
We’ll see. But I’m expecting more of my collection to go inactive with this change then any prior update.
Astmeister wrote: I wonder if they will also remove them fluff wise? They made a big "Cawl did some cyborg enhancements to them" storyline for them.
I suspect just quietly sweep things under the rug and not mention them. Part of the mythos of SM is how they venerate their wargear. Just because you got some new toys the ones that have served for millennia are not just going tossed on the trashheap.
Eventually that gear is going to get shelved though.
Firstborn losses are permanent now and slowly over time the older members of a Chapter are going to die or cross the Rubicon Primaris.
The armour will get put in storage or a reliquary.
I don't mind removal of some units, almost all of them can be played as counts as for something else, and space marines had way too many datasheets anyway. They need to get rid of intercessor squads and make a primaris tactical squad though, I hate all the special weapon options being their own units
James12345 wrote: I don't mind removal of some units, almost all of them can be played as counts as for something else, and space marines had way too many datasheets anyway. They need to get rid of intercessor squads and make a primaris tactical squad though, I hate all the special weapon options being their own units
I love it. More armies need dedicated units.
And they need to stop wussing around with the 5 model "standard". Eliminators were a great concept, and should be echoed elsewhere.
Voss wrote: That's actually a huge improvement and reduction in bloat.
Until the options for these units - especially Captains - only feature the weapons available on Primaris miniatures, instantly invalidating all the non-Primaris Captain models that feature any variation on these (Combi-Weapons, Thunder Hammers, Lightning Claws, etc.).
Wargear changes in a new codex?!?!??!?!??! BUT THAT"S NEVER HAPPENED IN THE HERSTORY OF FOREVER!>!<!><!><!>
Voss wrote: That's actually a huge improvement and reduction in bloat.
Until the options for these units - especially Captains - only feature the weapons available on Primaris miniatures, instantly invalidating all the non-Primaris Captain models that feature any variation on these (Combi-Weapons, Thunder Hammers, Lightning Claws, etc.).
Wargear changes in a new codex?!?!??!?!??! BUT THAT"S NEVER HAPPENED IN THE HERSTORY OF FOREVER!>!<!><!><!>
every time it happens people complain. People, understandably, don't like having some of their minis made "obselete" even if you admit it's proably, long term, for the best, it still stings
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/09/19 20:51:36
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
Voss wrote: That's actually a huge improvement and reduction in bloat.
Until the options for these units - especially Captains - only feature the weapons available on Primaris miniatures, instantly invalidating all the non-Primaris Captain models that feature any variation on these (Combi-Weapons, Thunder Hammers, Lightning Claws, etc.).
Wargear changes in a new codex?!?!??!?!??! BUT THAT"S NEVER HAPPENED IN THE HERSTORY OF FOREVER!>!<!><!><!>
every time it happens people complain. People, understandably, don't like having some of their minis made "obselete" even if you admit it's proably, long term, for the best, it still stings
It's objectively not for the best, as it's a problem purely created by GW alongside it's blatantly obvious solution.
Having a single "captain" and "lieutenant" entry, and then stuffing it with options, would eliminate the need to squat load outs and minimize the insane bloat. Even with the new Characters As Buffs model they could just copy what HH does with the various Consuls so that you could have fifty shades of lieutenant and have it take up less than half the amount of pages.
I wouldn't use Horus Heresy as an example of "less bloat" myself, but you do you.
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BrianDavion wrote: every time it happens people complain. People, understandably, don't like having some of their minis made "obselete" even if you admit it's proably, long term, for the best, it still stings
You needn't reply to people who are being intentionally disingenuous. Erjack knows exactly what I meant, but chose to misrepresent what I was saying instead of actually engaging with the topic, and of course did so in his typical endlessly insulting and exaggerated tone. It's a core reason why I don't engage with him.
My point, which he understood and ignored for the sake of attacking me, is that the change from "Captain & Primaris Captain" is only good thing if you believe that you've lost nothing in the transition. When we just have "Captain", and suddenly the only options Captains have are:
... then suddenly a lot of models go bye bye (the aforementioned Thunder Hammers, regular CCWs, Lightning Claws, Combi-Weapons, and so on) and suddenly the change from "Captain + Primaris Captain" to "Captain" doesn't seem like such a good thing.
Now I suspect that the new Captain in the Command Squad kit will have some more variations possible, so I fully expect (for example) Plasma Pistol + Sword to be a possibility. But I won't be surprised at all if that kit contains zero Thunder Hammers or Lightning Claws, meaning that those options will vanish from the Codex.
That's a problem, even if some people here like to pretend that it isn't.
(And this is before we get to things like Bike Captains, which presumably won't be a thing as they don't have a miniature, meaning the only character that can ever lead bikes will be the Chaplain - I hope the Dark Angel release rectifies this and we get a full Outrider kit and a new Bike Captain... and Libby, 'cause why not?).
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2023/09/19 23:20:57
H.B.M.C. wrote: ...
... then suddenly a lot of models go bye bye (the aforementioned Thunder Hammers, regular CCWs, Lightning Claws, Combi-Weapons, and so on) and suddenly the change from "Captain + Primaris Captain" to "Captain" doesn't seem like such a good thing.
Now I suspect that the new Captain in the Command Squad kit will have some more variations possible, so I fully expect (for example) Plasma Pistol + Sword to be a possibility. But I won't be surprised at all if that kit contains zero Thunder Hammers or Lightning Claws, meaning that those options will vanish from the Codex.
That's a problem, even if some people here like to pretend that it isn't.
(And this is before we get to things like Bike Captains, which presumably won't be a thing as they don't have a miniature, meaning the only character that can ever lead bikes will be the Chaplain - I hope the Dark Angel release rectifies this and we get a full Outrider kit and a new Bike Captain... and Libby, 'cause why not?).
GW starts with all wargear being free.
They then retire wargear loadouts for models they don't currently make--but it's okay because 'wargear is free' and you can just count them as something else.
This can slide pretty smoothly into 'the weapons and wargear on the model is irrelevant--use this profile for this model.'
It's not particularly difficult or costly to make sure that a wide variety of legacy weapon and wargear options are available for the appropriate models. GW is choosing not to do it.
BrianDavion wrote: every time it happens people complain. People, understandably, don't like having some of their minis made "obselete" even if you admit it's proably, long term, for the best, it still stings
This isn't MTG where you just buy a new pack of cards and play. Units and models in an army can take people months, years even decades (if you're as slow as me) to get finished. It's a long term hobby, but GW seem to be treating it short term like a card game cycle and dumping stuff in and out every 3 years (sometimes less). Which is why people complain.
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