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 LunarSol wrote:
I do think part of the problem with the satire defense is that its a little hard to say your Imperium is comically evil, when the humans who are not a part of it are wildly over the top hilariously evil. Not that I'd want to see them try to justify Chaos. It's Saturday morning supervillainy at its finest. It's just hard not to paint anything else as good by comparison.

Just answering that, actually I'd like a story here and there to justify Chaos. What 40K does most of the time is justifying the Imperium instead by showing the insanity and stupidity of Chaos followers, making you wonder why anyone would actually fall to Chaos. And even in the HH series it's usually they guys that already are stupid or jerks that fall to Chaos. There are too few rational, pragmatic views of people who see the insanity of the Imperium and move to Chaos because of it. 3rd edition CSM codex actually hinted at genuine freedom fighters that joined Chaos, I'm not sure we ever got an actual example of that.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Polonius wrote:

Aren't some of the Ultramar planets basically like the star trek federation in terms of quality of life?

No, because that would require them to have rights such as freedom of religion, freedom of association, freedom of the press, legal rights such as to a fair trial and effective legal representation, abolishment of capital and corporal punishment etc.

Nowhere in the Imperium is free, or anywhere close to it, because there is always the threat of an Inquisitor thinking you walk funny and shooting you for it.

I guess the only real one that is non-negotiable would be religion, but we don't know what legal rights people have in Ultramar, but it's heavily implied to be the best place to live. The Inquisition is not going to walk into the middle of Ultramar and mess with somebody absent a massive issue. And the average person likely has no clue the inquisition even exists.


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Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Just answering that, actually I'd like a story here and there to justify Chaos. What 40K does most of the time is justifying the Imperium instead by showing the insanity and stupidity of Chaos followers, making you wonder why anyone would actually fall to Chaos. And even in the HH series it's usually they guys that already are stupid or jerks that fall to Chaos. There are too few rational, pragmatic views of people who see the insanity of the Imperium and move to Chaos because of it. 3rd edition CSM codex actually hinted at genuine freedom fighters that joined Chaos, I'm not sure we ever got an actual example of that.

I would like that as well, but I think at this point any story about a group of people so fanatical they literally become possessed with demons is likely to be seen as a political parable, not a bit of lore.

Because I don't think Chaos is rational. Chaos is about the pursuit of something beyond what is rational.


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 Overread wrote:
I don't think this is modern, its been there for a long time. The idea that the Imperium is this insane thing that just won't stop or change for fear, whilst at the same time you can openly see that many of their policies and attitudes contribute toward their stagnated condition. The refusal to make more marines; use AI; the insane religious approach to Science and technology to name but a few. You could even argue that their Xenophobia is clearly bonkers as well when you've the likes of Eldar who would clearly be better allies than enemies in the current state of play. Or for that matter the Tau.

I forget if I read this as fanfic or thought of it myself, but I love the idea that there is the emperor, nearly dead, incommunicado, in the golden throne, for 10,000 years, while the custodians guard him, and most desperately guard a single button. They don't' know what it does, so they won't let anybody press it. Of course, it's the button that would begin resuscitation protocols and allow the Emperor to live again...

Sgt. Cortez wrote:


Just answering that, actually I'd like a story here and there to justify Chaos. What 40K does most of the time is justifying the Imperium instead by showing the insanity and stupidity of Chaos followers, making you wonder why anyone would actually fall to Chaos. And even in the HH series it's usually they guys that already are stupid or jerks that fall to Chaos. There are too few rational, pragmatic views of people who see the insanity of the Imperium and move to Chaos because of it. 3rd edition CSM codex actually hinted at genuine freedom fighters that joined Chaos, I'm not sure we ever got an actual example of that.

Absolutely. We've only really seen things from the Imperiums perspective, and that's a mess. Maybe Chaos are actually the good guys?

 Polonius wrote:
I think there's a really interesting theme in modern 40k, which is this: the imperium is brutal and awful, but it is the only thing preventing humanity from being swallowed by chaos. Except, maybe it isn't? but nobody can take the chance.

Congratulations. You have discovered the Grimdark.

Herzlos wrote:
Absolutely. We've only really seen things from the Imperiums perspective, and that's a mess. Maybe Chaos are actually the good guys?

I guess it depends what you mean by good guys. 40k famously has no actual virtuous factions, but chaos tends to lead to a depravity and cruelty for it's own sake that's second really only to the Dark Eldar in terms of sheer evil.

I think the interesting story hook is that chaos, by it's nature, is individualistic. Both Chaos and the Imperium will murder children to accomplish their goals, but generally the goals of the imperium after the child murder are to protect other people or defeat a foe, while a chaos worshiper might murder children to get a fancy hat. That being said, when faced with the "join or die" mentality of the Imperium, it's no wonder many people seek out a secret, third option and turn to chaos (or genestealer cults, or the tau, or just plain old rebellion).

There's an old myth about a Chinese emperor who was so tyrannical, he made more and more crimes worthy of capital punishment, until eventually being late when called to work could result in death. Well, a group of workers realized they would be late, and the penalty for rebellion was no worse than the penalty for being late, and so...

We do have a novel (Day of Ascension) in which the Genestealer Cultists are the good guys.

It isn't that hard really, as a Genestealer Cult is one giant family in which you are never alone, never abandoned and unconditionally loved.

Meanwhile the IoM and in particular the Admech is both extremely oppressive but even its leadership is a nest of vipers and lowercase c corruption and backstabbing for political points.

So we only need a Chaos book that does something like that.

 Lord Damocles wrote:

 Polonius wrote:
I think there's a really interesting theme in modern 40k, which is this: the imperium is brutal and awful, but it is the only thing preventing humanity from being swallowed by chaos. Except, maybe it isn't? but nobody can take the chance.

Congratulations. You have discovered the Grimdark.

It seems obvious, but the author of the piece OP linked to doesn't' seem to grapple with it, and why I think his insistence that 40k is a "satire" is very wrong. The Imperium isn't fascist, because it literally does have existential enemies outside and within. It's leader literally is a god. The blood of ancient heroes literally flows through the heroes of today. People that see the fascist tropes of the Imperium and hard bounce off it don't understand that the Imperium didn't make the 40k world awful, the 40k world was so awful that brutal tribal authoritarianism is the logical strategy.

And that's not satire. It's not funny or silly. It's sometimes over the top, but I think 40k is a straightforward look at a world. The author doesn't like that world, or doesn't like how that world is portrayed, and that's fine. He can play the game in his version, because that's part of the hobby as well. But he seems to not want to grapple with ideas that seem icky to him.

Before genestealer cult background was flanderised into all hybrids all the time, it was made clear that a good portion of the cult wouldn't actually even be aware of the xenos element, and would just be fighting for a better life for themselves and/or believing that they were really the good guys.

Isn't that still a huge part of their lore - the cult armies and core (esp the part that appears on the game table) are the most die hard loyal; but the actual cult itself still recruits and has many many human followers.


Even when some come to realise that there are hybrids, I don't think its always expressly revealed to them that its an Alien. A Star God (that's not an alien its a god); the 4 armed Emperor are all different religious elements that link up with them.
Like Chaos and the Imperial Religion they all tap into existing beliefs in their locality; corrupting and twisting them to their own ends.

It still is part of their lore. Even it has been expanded to the hybrids themselves not being truly aware of their own alien nature. They see themselves as humans that have been touched and enhanced by the divine.

 Polonius wrote:
People that see the fascist tropes of the Imperium and hard bounce off it don't understand that the Imperium didn't make the 40k world awful, the 40k world was so awful that brutal tribal authoritarianism is the logical strategy.

I don't know. I can't think of any situation where authoritarianism is the logical or best way to survive. You might need a brutal crackdown to deal with civil unrest, but you're almost certainly going to make it worse compared to dealing with the underlying cause of the unrest. You want an army of troops that are loyal because they believe the cause is worth fighting, not 'loyal' because any disloyalty is met by firing squad. It's a total waste of resources, and authoritarian governments always collapse under their own weight either as the people revolt or the leadership becomes increasingly paranoid.

Even outside of combat, civilian life is a dystopian nightmare where they are grossly malnourished, working virtually as slaves in squalid conditions, apart from a small proportion of wealthy folk and that's a nest of corruption, backstabbing and so on. Joining the guard may seem like an easy way out where you'll get better portions of corpse starch for the short remainder of your life as you'll get pointlessly thrown at an infinite enemy in a game of ineffective attrition and mismanagement.

I'd also go further and claim that if Imperium level fascism is the only way for the human race to survive, then maybe it's time it gave up and went quietly. There's no quality of life and no hope for a quality of life. There's no hope of a meaningful plot advancement.

To me where it's satirical (which may not be the best world) is that it's trying to show how crap authoritarianism is. That civilization will essentially destroy itself and leave everyone in some dystopian post-apocalyptic drudgery where the only thing happening is more fighting. The problem is that some people seem to like that in a non-ironic manner, and the lore eventually leaned hard into it.

But then we need to remember that the entirety of 40K lore is designed around a wargame and selling battle dolls. It didn't have to be particularly deep or consistent.

Quality of life depends what world you're on and what position in society you are in.

When many of us think of 40K as a setting for humans we think of Necromunda - broadly at least. Of vast gothic factories; no health and safety; a work-life balance that makes the Industrial age workhouses look like a walk in the park. Of an underhive full of scum, crime and pollution so vile the people are mutated and twisted.

Where only the elite living at the very top have any degree of quality to their lives.


BUT that is not every world. It's many worlds, but its not all. There are good worlds; there are worlds where you work hard and its a tough life, but its not impossible to survive decently; there are worlds that are even more hellish and those that are paradise. Worlds where the divide from rich to poor is insanely vast and worlds where its less so.

The other aspect is that the Imperium is constantly changing. They do have uprisings and rebellions; powerstruggles and more. The thing is all this operates at the local scale and for the most part doesn't affect the large scale. The Imperium doesn't care who runs a sector so long as they send troops, tithe, munitions and obey Imperial orders when they are sent. Otherwise they can get on with things for the most part.


Finally there's a generational and education aspect. The Impierum has been as it is for 10K years. It's age in this state is longer than that of recorded modern human history. That length of time with static unchanging values at the core with a steady drift into more and more extreme over time likely means that many concepts we have today on the ideal way to live just aren't even thoughts that people in the Imperium think of.

Ergo that democracy as a way of life isn't even something they'd consider; the idea just isn't there. Sure you might swap Authoritarianism for Nobility or Royalty; but broadly speaking its the same system reinforced with a strict social structure.

The whole idea that the IoM is the best way for humanity to survive runs into the issue the IoM does a lot of stupid gak.

The most you could say (if you are feeling particularly nihilistic) is that humanity is an inherently stupid species and the IoM was always its end state.

Herzlos wrote:

 Polonius wrote:
People that see the fascist tropes of the Imperium and hard bounce off it don't understand that the Imperium didn't make the 40k world awful, the 40k world was so awful that brutal tribal authoritarianism is the logical strategy.

I don't know. I can't think of any situation where authoritarianism is the logical or best way to survive. You might need a brutal crackdown to deal with civil unrest, but you're almost certainly going to make it worse compared to dealing with the underlying cause of the unrest. You want an army of troops that are loyal because they believe the cause is worth fighting, not 'loyal' because any disloyalty is met by firing squad. It's a total waste of resources, and authoritarian governments always collapse under their own weight either as the people revolt or the leadership becomes increasingly paranoid.

Well, I think that Democracy and rule of law are great, and by far the best system of government possible. It's also really, really hard to create a democratic system out of whole cloth, they tend to evolve. Outside of Japan, I don't think there's been any real success in making any place less authoritarian, and that's assuming you have security and safety. In the immediate aftermath of the horus heresy, nobody had either. Interplanetary communication, much last transport, makes coordination difficult and consensus impossible. You end up with the same conclusion that Dune made: space empires will revert to damn near feudal government, with each planet being more less self sufficient and self governing aside from putting up it's tithes.

I'd also go further and claim that if Imperium level fascism is the only way for the human race to survive, then maybe it's time it gave up and went quietly. There's no quality of life and no hope for a quality of life. There's no hope of a meaningful plot advancement.

To me where it's satirical (which may not be the best world) is that it's trying to show how crap authoritarianism is. That civilization will essentially destroy itself and leave everyone in some dystopian post-apocalyptic drudgery where the only thing happening is more fighting. The problem is that some people seem to like that in a non-ironic manner, and the lore eventually leaned hard into it.

I agree. I think that's honestly the point. It's a horrible, horrible world.

But I don't think that doesn't mean you can't have fun in it.

But then we need to remember that the entirety of 40K lore is designed around a wargame and selling battle dolls. It didn't have to be particularly deep or consistent.

But it is a world where it makes sense to have innumerable skirmishes with 75% casualties on both sides and somehow keeps ticking.

In Star Trek, a federation officer could retire never firing a weapon in anger. Most will be involved in, at most, a handful of actions. Nobody gets out of 40k without paying their pound of flesh.


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 Overread wrote:
Ergo that democracy as a way of life isn't even something they'd consider; the idea just isn't there. Sure you might swap Authoritarianism for Nobility or Royalty; but broadly speaking its the same system reinforced with a strict social structure.

I think the one cheeky aspect of satire left in 40k is that I think you can argue the Imperium isn't even authoritarian, because that implies an authority. The reality is that the Imperium is a bureaucracy running entirely on momentum.

The ruler of the imperium are a billion clerks that are sending taxes and armies across the galaxy based on decades old information.

 Polonius wrote:


I think the one cheeky aspect of satire left in 40k is that I think you can argue the Imperium isn't even authoritarian, because that implies an authority. The reality is that the Imperium is a bureaucracy running entirely on momentum.

The ruler of the imperium are a billion clerks that are sending taxes and armies across the galaxy based on decades old information.

Very true. Even in my post I was mostly talking about planet/sector level. At the head of the Imperium itself there isn't really any single power.

By its very design its entire power and military structure is fragmented into separate powergroups; each of which distrusts the others and has their own interpretation and agenda. Each of which is also only able to see part of the pie because the Imperium is so vast.

And yes huge parts of it run almost on an automatic system setup generations ago which leads to madness like munition deployments from warzones to overloaded storage sites because that's what should happen according to documents and quotas setup generations ago.


Even with the return of a Primarch there's still huge power struggles between the different factions. Factions that you can't just take down even as a son of the near literal god of the Imperium that the Imperium supposedly follows.
Insane amounts of stupid things happen when you can view it through the lens of the narrator. By its very size and level of technology the Imperium should have controlled the Orks; wiped out the Tau in a second; Driven the Eldar even further into the fringe; obliterated Necron worlds and more. But it can't. It's divided whilst being united; its hobbled and shackled by concepts and religious approaches to things.

The Imperium sells itself as the last hope for humanity whilst at the same time being the thing that holds humanity in state of stagnation.
And yet you can even see a grim logic; that for all its insanity and faults it HAS worked to a degree. Humanity is still dominant; is still one of the biggest power players; is still in a very strong commanding position. Even being chipped away at by a host of foes the Imperium still survives.

 Tyran wrote:
We do have a novel (Day of Ascension) in which the Genestealer Cultists are the good guys.

It isn't that hard really, as a Genestealer Cult is one giant family in which you are never alone, never abandoned and unconditionally loved.

Meanwhile the IoM and in particular the Admech is both extremely oppressive but even its leadership is a nest of vipers and lowercase c corruption and backstabbing for political points.

So we only need a Chaos book that does something like that.

I mean, you could literally place the Hunger games story on a random Imperial Planet and make Katniss Everdeen a Follower of Tzeentch. Oh, my Chaos incursion actually wins? Yeah, I'm shooting the leader, change must go on , still better than imperial governor Snow.

 Polonius wrote:

But it is a world where it makes sense to have innumerable skirmishes with 75% casualties on both sides and somehow keeps ticking.

Yeah, the only way that works is with the completely plot breaking immortals fighting the infinites. It doesn't matter how many Astartes die killing how many Tyranids, because because of plot armour they are all back tomorrow. Astartes being ressurected and Tyranids respawning.

 Polonius wrote:

I think the one cheeky aspect of satire left in 40k is that I think you can argue the Imperium isn't even authoritarian, because that implies an authority. The reality is that the Imperium is a bureaucracy running entirely on momentum.

The ruler of the imperium are a billion clerks that are sending taxes and armies across the galaxy based on decades old information.

I think you can still have authoritarianism with the head cut off. You've got your secret police / witch hunters with the Inquisition that will execute anyone who asks questions, combined with essentially broken government at all levels. So how would anyone know the Emperor actually died 10,000 years ago and who'd be stupid enough to even bring it up?

The author of that piece really likes the word fascism and ascribing it to the appeal of the setting. Not sure what point I was supposed to take from it aside from that.

People make too much out of the shift in tone from parody to grimdark. Parody and sarcasm aren't always amusing, as a deconstructive rhetorical method each can be quite dark. As an allegory for militarism taken to extremes, I'm not sure parody went away so much as became less cartoony and more precise.

The world of 40k as envisioned from the POV of the Imperium is very small compared to that of all the other factions in the game. Not sure fascism accurately describes the Imperial cause in context with devil worshippers in competition to sacrifice the souls of all living beings to their dark gods, hive-mind monsters consuming all biological matter in the universe, undead space robots that consider life an offense against their dominion to be eliminated at a galactic scale, perpetually self-generating greenskin hordes that treat war as a reason for being, and the many other horrors of the universe.

These are not artificial threats ginned up by tin-pot dictators seeking to impose their vision of strength upon a weak populace. This is the response of a civilization at a galactic scale to the horrors of a purely tooth-and-claw universe. Comparisons to real world politics stop being relevant at a certain point, nothing in the setting serves as a model for how to organize society. The nightmarish lack of appeal is the parody.

I think it was fairly clear what the satirical message was in ~3rd edition (regarding the Imperium). If you take fascism and dial its rhetoric up to 11 with existential threats on every doorstep, fascism is still not an appropriate response to manage that. The Imperium very clearly got in its own way and made things worse, surviving through the inertia of its sheer mass. This is a culture that worships toasters and will condemn millions to death because a scribe put the decimal point in the wrong place.

Yes, this has faded away, particularly from 5th edition onwards. Now many of the dumb features of the Imperium have been retroactively justified as real.

Edit: the setting being silly and a critique of authoritarianism doesn't mean you can't have compelling narratives and characters within the setting. For example, many Borderlands characters are well liked despite being casually violent murder hobos in a setting critiquing the issues with unchecked corporate capitalism.

Although I do like it when even well-intentioned 40k characters run into the bounds of their existence and support or do something completely unremarkable within the Imperium that is absolutely atrocious by our modern sensibilities.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:
I do think part of the problem with the satire defense is that its a little hard to say your Imperium is comically evil, when the humans who are not a part of it are wildly over the top hilariously evil. Not that I'd want to see them try to justify Chaos. It's Saturday morning supervillainy at its finest. It's just hard not to paint anything else as good by comparison.

Just answering that, actually I'd like a story here and there to justify Chaos. What 40K does most of the time is justifying the Imperium instead by showing the insanity and stupidity of Chaos followers, making you wonder why anyone would actually fall to Chaos. And even in the HH series it's usually they guys that already are stupid or jerks that fall to Chaos. There are too few rational, pragmatic views of people who see the insanity of the Imperium and move to Chaos because of it. 3rd edition CSM codex actually hinted at genuine freedom fighters that joined Chaos, I'm not sure we ever got an actual example of that.

A very large chunk of the Horus Heresy series is focused on how most of the traitor primarchs were treated badly enough by the Imperium that siding with Chaos seemed like the only logical alternative.

Sure, most of them don't come across as being too bright, but that's more a side effect of the writing than the story... the Loyalist primarchs aren't really portrayed as being particularly smart, either.

 insaniak wrote:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:
I do think part of the problem with the satire defense is that its a little hard to say your Imperium is comically evil, when the humans who are not a part of it are wildly over the top hilariously evil. Not that I'd want to see them try to justify Chaos. It's Saturday morning supervillainy at its finest. It's just hard not to paint anything else as good by comparison.

Just answering that, actually I'd like a story here and there to justify Chaos. What 40K does most of the time is justifying the Imperium instead by showing the insanity and stupidity of Chaos followers, making you wonder why anyone would actually fall to Chaos. And even in the HH series it's usually they guys that already are stupid or jerks that fall to Chaos. There are too few rational, pragmatic views of people who see the insanity of the Imperium and move to Chaos because of it. 3rd edition CSM codex actually hinted at genuine freedom fighters that joined Chaos, I'm not sure we ever got an actual example of that.

A very large chunk of the Horus Heresy series is focused on how most of the traitor primarchs were treated badly enough by the Imperium that siding with Chaos seemed like the only logical alternative.

Sure, most of them don't come across as being too bright, but that's more a side effect of the writing than the story... the Loyalist primarchs aren't really portrayed as being particularly smart, either.

Nor the Emperor for that matter.

I'd argue that Rogue Trader was never satirical; it was a grab-bag of different science fiction/science fantasy themes from different sources, some of which were themselves satirical, and some of which weren't. There was a certain level of self-mocking dark humour, and a lot of fun references that were there just for people that got them, but there was no underlying satirical intent. That self-mocking element is inherently English, and is something that other cultures don't always get. It's also worth remembering that it was all thrown together in a relatively short time in order to provide a sand pit-style background to a game that was itself something of a hotchpotch - neither a conventional wargame nor a role-playing game.

The modern version of all that fluff isn't really any less dark; it's just been ironed flat after years of rehashing and retconning. The self-mockery is largely gone (it has been since 3rd Edition), and only really pops up in their marketing on WarCom.

For some reason most people don't seem capable of distinguishing between satire and reference/basis.

The line between the two can be very muddy; esp when you've something as long lasting as 40K where its very clear that its had different focus and style for its lore over the decades. The very early stuff likely was more satirical, but its been a long while since it was. Now chances are when people see the satire its not intentional or if it is its just one part of many aspects of the story/theme.

I think some people really want the whole setting to be satire and go hunting for it. I think because there's a feeling that satire is somehow a higher/greater/better/whatever style/skill of writing/setting/creation.

IMHO it is the contradiction of 40k mostly being written in a serious tone... While doing laughably stupid things like Tyranid Deniers, or the third episode of Tithes.

This is also why every time the IoM does something stupid you get the other side of the equation, people calling it "grimderp" and unable to recognize and accept that "grimdark" taken seriously is pretty much that.

Also, I don't think the whole setting has ever been satire in its entiriety. It is the relatable parts that are satire, in particular the Imperium. Tyranids, for example, are not satirical but are an existential horror. They serve to enhance the satire of the Imperium but they are not satirising anything directly. Oldcrons were similar.

So I saw when this article popped up, and I'm still kind of just.. processing it. It's a lot of words and I find it hard to actually just sit down and read it.
Does the author think space marines are fascists? or represent fascism? Does the author think its okay and fun to play as fascists but that they need to be depicted in certain ways to make it more presentable?
I see a lot of things about the "40k universe" being different in rogue trader compared to some time around 3rd/4th edition where the mood, artwork, miniatures were all changing, and some of the older parts of the lore were being ignored, from the times when 40k was basically fantasy in space, like not having that ultramarine librarian who was half eldar, where as that seems to not fit modern 40k, a half elf is a common fantasy trope so when 40k was "fantasy in space", half eldar wasn't a big stretch to believe.
I dunno, I just know I've been enjoying the game, I'm just finding a lot of the back and forth about this game tiring. Play it or don't play it, either is fine, why fight about it.

The author thinks that you are a fascist. The video game just happens to be the current vector of attack.

40k is pulp with satirical elements. I forgive it for its weakness in the latter regard.

The whole 'fascists are the good guys' thing comes from Judge Dredd. It's more ironic than satirical, and it's just one element of what made up the Imperium and the Marines. The RT/WH40k fluff has never been coherent enough to analyse for any consistent satirical theme.