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I appreciate your approach Bob and I have definitely seen painting as a barrier to entry. Like you, I don't particularly like painting that much.

I manage to get there because I do value the spectacle of a fully-painted game. Even if those paint jobs are not great and the terrain is make-do, homemade, and obviously found materials.

However, I can see how other folks would think about it differently both ways. For me, lowering some of my "finished" standards and let my imagination fill in some of the blanks has helped me get past burn-out. It doesn't have to be awesome, just awesome enough. I can see how various people will have various different tolerances to that approach across the spectrum.



.

 warhead01 wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:


I’ll go one further: the idea that every mini needs to be painted to be played is toxic. For people who enjoy painting, it’s great. For people who find painting a burden, or find it unnecessary, it’s a huge waste of energy and time that makes the hobby less rewarding.

Disagree. Having expectations and standards is not toxic.

Franky it ruins my emersion. My fun is as important as their fun. Better for me to not leave the house than drive an hour and a half minimum just to be disappointed. I don't have time or money for that. This was another reason I was ready to abandon the hobby. Drive that far just to encounter an unpainted army commanded by a player who wanted to win at any cost and rules lawyer the whole time. No thank you. I've been involved with 40K for 28 years I am not toxic because I have standards and expectations. Do what ever you want. I'm find with you having your fun without me. Especially if your fun would not include me.

This is why I always point out that gamers are the worst part of the hobby. I never play pickup games because I might end up playing someone I won’t get along with. Everyone should have a group of likeminded friends to game with so they don’t have to deal with people who have a different idea of fun.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:


This is why I always point out that gamers are the worst part of the hobby. I never play pickup games because I might end up playing someone I won’t get along with. Everyone should have a group of likeminded friends to game with so they don’t have to deal with people who have a different idea of fun.

At some point you gotta play new pickup games against new people and run the risk that they become new likeminded friends to game with.

Though of course sometimes you're lucky and you've a good group of regulars who are friendly and who basically hang around for years/decades.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
[q

I’ll go one further: the idea that every mini needs to be painted to be played is toxic. For people who enjoy painting, it’s great. For people who find painting a burden, or find it unnecessary, it’s a huge waste of energy and time that makes the hobby less rewarding.

I think we may have discussed this earlier, but I completely disagree. Miniature wargaming without painted miniatures is not the same hobby as what I do and is certainly not an activity I have any interest in pursuing.

However, if one is going to maintain a painted-only standard at their club/home/etc, it would behove them to have enough painted miniatures on hand for visitors or the less-paint-inclined. A painted-only standard should not be an excuse for a lack of hospitality.

I write an article about this years ago.

https://www.chicagoskirmishwargames.com/blog/2014/08/painting-matters-in-defense-of-hobby/

I stand by it and it remains our club blog's most commented-upon article.

I disagree fundamentally with Eilif.

You do yours, but I just spent about 7 hours over 3 days converting 2 miniatures. The result isn't amazing, but it pleases ME. One of my future opponents MIGHT say "Oh, cool" for a second - or "what the **** is that???" but for some painting IS a barrier.

It's a HOBBY. It CAN be a competition but it doesn't have to be. As for the article - condescending came to mind. Sorry/not sorry

If unpainted models are good enough for Zeus, then they're good enough for me.

I have never had playing burn out (basically I always want to have a game).

But I had painting burnt out many times... as I find that part of the "hobby" annoying...

Also I have finally decided to sell some of the minis and units of locally dead games (not all, just in case). Good idea??

@SU-152

I'd be REALLY annoyed if I sold up then the game got a local revival - or am I just being hoardy?

The thing about "locally dead games" is sometimes all it needs to come back to life is one person running/trying to run a game for a few weeks to spark interest. then before you know it - boom you've got a living game again.

stroller wrote:
I disagree fundamentally with Eilif.

You do yours, but I just spent about 7 hours over 3 days converting 2 miniatures. The result isn't amazing, but it pleases ME. One of my future opponents MIGHT say "Oh, cool" for a second - or "what the **** is that???" but for some painting IS a barrier.

It's a HOBBY. It CAN be a competition but it doesn't have to be. As for the article - condescending came to mind. Sorry/not sorry

No apologies or not-apologies necessary. Your hobby your way.

However, I certainly wouldn't say my hobby is a competition. Rather it's more of a meeting of the minds. I'm our case it's primarily a group of people who enjoy gaming with painted miniatures, on great looking terrain in the company of friendly people

In the most literal sense the article probably is condescending in that it does purpose a hierarchy of participation and specific standards. I make no excuses for that (in fact I embrace it) as the experience I strive to host twice a month simply isn't achievable with unfriendly people, mediocre terrain or -as is the issue here- unpainted miniatures.

At our club conversions such as yours are greatly admired and respected. They just don't hit the table until they're painted.

I should add that we have no specific standards for painting. We have some amazing painters in the club and we also have guys like me who block paint and dip. Painting minis is actually my least favorite part of the hobby.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

SamusDrake wrote:
If unpainted models are good enough for Zeus, then they're good enough for me.

I can't speak for Zeus, but the Greeks and Romans did paint their statues.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

stroller wrote:
@SU-152

I'd be REALLY annoyed if I sold up then the game got a local revival - or am I just being hoardy?

I'm probably an enabler and a hoarder of minis, but I buy the minis I like and if the game dies then it's just an excuse to drop them into an OPR ruleset or other minis agnostic game.

One tip - reduce stress over piles of grey by getting into 3d printing, a digital "pile of shame" is much, much easier to handle than a physical one.

It can be quite liberating since you can collect what you want, then only print it exactly when you want to paint it and play games with it.

As for playing vs. unpainted minis, the social skills and attitude of the person matters way more to me than whether their minis are painted. People (especially the dirt broke and permanently stressed younger generations) often have work or family commitments which mean that the painting just doesn't happen, and I understand that.

Some had painted armies, sold them off due to financial difficulty, and now have unpainted armies after getting some money, but losing the time for painting.

Life is complex and I'm happy to just roll some dice and have a good time with nice people.

stroller wrote:
@SU-152

I'd be REALLY annoyed if I sold up then the game got a local revival - or am I just being hoardy?

Yup, the excuse "but maybe it will be useful one day" must be a standard for hoarding.

Here's what I don't get. For most armies, you can just use colored primer to get a running start. Pick out some shoulder pads and weapons, scrape some basing goop, rim it... and suddenly it's like semi painted?

The products, techniques, and teaching materials that are available now are so much better than 20 years ago. anybody that's choosing not to paint is doing so when it's never been easier to paint.

 Polonius wrote:
Here's what I don't get. For most armies, you can just use colored primer to get a running start. Pick out some shoulder pads and weapons, scrape some basing goop, rim it... and suddenly it's like semi painted?

The products, techniques, and teaching materials that are available now are so much better than 20 years ago. anybody that's choosing not to paint is doing so when it's never been easier to paint.

Resources are more plentiful than ever but skill, practice, patience and all are still core elements.
I'd also argue that there are some things which videos never quite cover in painting all that well. There's that "its a mess" to "it looks good" phase of any art creation that is in one part overcome with practice but another subtle elements that are often not written down. Even good teachers might not realise they do them to point them out. It can be as slight as just how much you load your brush; how you hold the brush; how often you apply the paint; what stroke you use etc....


Also not only are resources legion but inspiration of super good quality painting is also legion. You can VERY easily look at thousands of expect and high grade painted models and get the feeling that that is what you want to create.

 Overread wrote:
Even good teachers might not realise they do them to point them out.

This is a good point. I was talking to a buddy about how I was able to paint so quickly, and I talked about color schemes, and techniques, and batch painting, and I realized he was already doing those things. If anything, he had simpler schemes and techniques than I did. I finally sat down and watched him paint. He just moved his brush slowly.

Turns out the reason I paint quickly is because I move my brush more quickly.

Yep and it might be more than that. Your fast and his slow methods of painting might be linked to subtle differences in your hand holding; posture, confidence and a bunch of other little things.

Which would also mean he can't just "move faster" or even that if you started going slower you might encounter oddities in your painting.

 Overread wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:


This is why I always point out that gamers are the worst part of the hobby. I never play pickup games because I might end up playing someone I won’t get along with. Everyone should have a group of likeminded friends to game with so they don’t have to deal with people who have a different idea of fun.

At some point you gotta play new pickup games against new people and run the risk that they become new likeminded friends to game with.

Though of course sometimes you're lucky and you've a good group of regulars who are friendly and who basically hang around for years/decades.

I have gone through this over the last three years as I started building up a local wargaming community where none existed before. I guess it worked as three years later we have three FLGS and a bi-weekly club meeting and monthly painting social in our small, rural community. However, I rarely go to any of the Club events anymore because now that we have a community, it did not take long for it to shift from what I had started into a competitive Warhammer 40K focused local meta. I have no interest in that, so mostly just go to the painting Socials.

The people have spoken and I have no intention of trying to move the club away from what they want. There are still a couple of folks I can count on for a non-GW game if I do the pre-planning and prep work, and that is good enough for now.

For me, the hardest part of Wargaming is dealing with other Wargamers. Other than wargaming, I do not have a lot in common with my own local player base. I even have a very different view of how to approach wargaming, so we really don't even have that in common anymore either.

stroller wrote:
@SU-152

I'd be REALLY annoyed if I sold up then the game got a local revival - or am I just being hoardy?

I fell into the Nic Cage Superman Scenario, where a loved one says, you don't need that, sell that. And when you finally come to your senses, you pay a lot more to buy it back.... because it's what makes you happy. And no one who gives you the hobby or me ultimatum is really a good match for you.

 Easy E wrote:

Spoiler:

I have gone through this over the last three years as I started building up a local wargaming community where none existed before. I guess it worked as three years later we have three FLGS and a bi-weekly club meeting and monthly painting social in our small, rural community. However, I rarely go to any of the Club events anymore because now that we have a community, it did not take long for it to shift from what I had started into a competitive Warhammer 40K focused local meta. I have no interest in that, so mostly just go to the painting Socials.

The people have spoken and I have no intention of trying to move the club away from what they want. There are still a couple of folks I can count on for a non-GW game if I do the pre-planning and prep work, and that is good enough for now.

For me, the hardest part of Wargaming is dealing with other Wargamers. Other than wargaming, I do not have a lot in common with my own local player base. I even have a very different view of how to approach wargaming, so we really don't even have that in common anymore either.

That sounds really disappointing to put so much into a community and have it grow and then turn sharply away from you. Glad you still have a few folks you can turn to.

Maybe it's good that my club has never reallygrown beyond 8 regular members, half of whom are long timers. We're all still into essentially the same types of games and generally the same approach to gaming that we had a dozen years ago.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Cyel wrote:

stroller wrote:
@SU-152

I'd be REALLY annoyed if I sold up then the game got a local revival - or am I just being hoardy?

Yup, the excuse "but maybe it will be useful one day" must be a standard for hoarding.

For sure!
I know it's unhealthy, but there are just enough examples of actually finding a use for something -after holding onto it for a decade- that I always seem to have a justification for not getting rid of a given thing.

 Eilif wrote:
Rather it's more of a meeting of the minds.

I think this is so important. We form a type of social contract when we game. Whether it's a board game, card game, or Warhammer, we're going to follow the rules (not cheat), treat each other well, etc. We also have to be more explicit sometimes: are we playing competitively? Narratively? Are unpainted units allowed? Proxies?

What's important to remember too is that this agreement (whether formal or informal) can be altered situationally. For example, I might say to Bob: "I would really like to play a narrative game with fully painted miniatures. No beard/cheese lists." Bob might say (and I hope he'll forgive me for putting words in his mouth), "I can meet you on all those points, but I really don't like painting, and I'd like to play with my Grand Army of Gray Knights of Graywillington." That would work for me. So would, "I am not sure if I should save up to buy this unit, so for now it is a proxied bit of cardboard." Tell ya what, I'll bring the beer.

But if the player was, let's just make up a name, Horus the Cheesemaster, who said, "Sounds good, but I'm bringing my ubercompetitive netlist of the 101st Cheeselord Division of which are comprised half unpainted plastic and half proxied slips of paper in case the meta changes." For me, that's a non-starter. There's not enough commonality to find an agreeable social contract of play.

If we remember that our gaming social contracts can be somewhat malleable, we can use common ground in some areas to bridge even massive gulfs in other respects and perhaps even form the Great Painted/Unpainted Concordat of These Our Troubled Times.

 Eilif wrote:


I can't speak for Zeus, but the Greeks and Romans did paint their statues.

Zeus: "Perseus! Grown into a young man..."

Hera: "But he's not table-ready! Put him back on the shelf-of-shame at once!"

At the moment I am only playing with "non-wargamers" and so I provide all the minis, so they're always all painted because that is my personal standard.

It's a lot of work, but it's really satisfying, and I find it makes me a lot more chill win or lose (not that I was ever really THAT competitive, but I could go "on tilt" if I was having a really bad game) because "my guys" are always winning, even if I'm not controlling them!

If I find someone cool locally that has their own stuff I'd be willing to make compromises to play with them, but I think it's an academic point with my schedule and other commitments. I'm pretty happy to have started gaming again after a long gaming drought.

 Da Boss wrote:
.

It's a lot of work, but it's really satisfying, and I find it makes me a lot more chill win or lose (not that I was ever really THAT competitive, but I could go "on tilt" if I was having a really bad game) because "my guys" are always winning, even if I'm not controlling them!.

I resonate similarly to this. I'm still going to do my best to beat my opponent, but when the people, figs and terrain are great, there's not much sting to a loss.

The older I get the more wisdom I see in the "3-color tournament standard" paintjob.

I hate painting; I like conversions but painting is a chore to me. I still have a fully painted 2000+ "green tide" ork army though and I painted them like this:

1. Green skin
2. Tan pants and armbands
3. Brown shirts and boots
4. Boltgun weapons, helmets, and armor plates
5. Dark wash all over
6. Base haphazardly flocked

They don't look amazing but they look way better than gray plastic and there was no way I would paint them with more detail. I did do more work on some of the iconic characters - the warboss has painted teeth and red eyes and warpaint - but for the rank-and-file 4 paints and a wash was good enough.

I'm always happier seeing my slapdash orks on the table than one of my unfinished armies that I swear I'm going to paint really nice someday.

This discussion has perhaps taken a turn from it's original subject. However, for myself this discussion of the value of painted miniatures actually comes full circle.

The spectacle of painted miniatures on good terrain combined with spending time with folks I like is what seems to have marked my best and most consistent periods of hobby participation.

I think it tends to be painting that causes burnout more than any other part of the hobby, so it does make sense that the conversation leaned that way.

 Da Boss wrote:
I think it tends to be painting that causes burnout more than any other part of the hobby, so it does make sense that the conversation leaned that way.

I agree... which is possibly why the three Armies I'm looking to play with are pretty monochrome...

stroller wrote:
@SU-152

I'd be REALLY annoyed if I sold up then the game got a local revival - or am I just being hoardy?

 Overread wrote:
The thing about "locally dead games" is sometimes all it needs to come back to life is one person running/trying to run a game for a few weeks to spark interest. then before you know it - boom you've got a living game again.

It's epic Armageddon what we are talking about. Chances of resurrection are zero


And.... just in case I am keeping a couple of armies. And.... it can be rebuilt for cheap via 3D.