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Posted By Augustus on 07/06/2006 1:08 PM

Marines have a 1+ command roll, if they teleport/deepstrike/spacefall, there is no way for it to be modified

Sorry but that is not true.

Hey,

Let's talk about another game I thought was dead. Better yet, let's talk about a miniature line I thought was dead, while at the same time making this thread (like nearly every other one on DakkaDakka) get off topic.

SQUATS!

*runs for cover*

Chuck

You can use them in Epic!

I still don't know whats wrong with Tau in Epic, other than Forgeworld only.

On top of all the suggestions above Epic is the only game you won't hear people whine about Space Marines.

Space Marines are the weakest army in Epic.

I thought the only game where you wouldn't hear whining about Space Marines was Battlefleet Gothic?

There either. They are properly relegated to a secondary fleet in favor of the awesome power of the Imperial Navy.

Lets take this to the appropriate forum. I disagree with Augustus' analysis, but this isn't the right place to continue the debate.

I am by no means an expert Epic player, but there are three points I would like to make about this tactic and 1 about the general argument.

i) The tactic depends on winning the strategy roll. This might be all well and good, when playing against low strategy ratings, like Imperial Guard or Orks, but the notion that this is a ?game-breaking? strategy is a lot less convincing when playing against high strategy ratings, like other marines or Eldar.

If you drop an army that consists of 6-8 stands of terminators in the first turn and lose the initiative, you will have a hell of a job staging any kind of recovery, especially against Eldar who can do a third retain.

N.B. I think it is worth pointing out that is very unlikely a marine player can perform a combined teleport assault on a 1+. Teleport rules mean that it is very likely that one formation will have acquired a blast marker. Furthermore, cumulative penalties for blast markers and retaining mean that marines will still be testing on a 3+. If a second assault is launched on the retain. That said, the supreme commander mitigates this significantly.

ii) latest rules guidance makes this even harder to do, as garrisoned formations can begin the game on ?overwatch?. On my reading, ?overwatch? occurs after a move, but before an assault, so while winning the initiative may allow a player to undertake first turn assault teleport assault, the chances are you will suffer casualties and blast markers before the assault occurs.

Eldar don?t tend to have much in the way of garrisons, but have masses of skimmers, forcing terminators to use their FF (which, admittedly is good at 3+) rather than getting the +1 macro weapon attack.

iii) Even if you don?t play with this guidance, I would think that careful placing of a couple of well?deployed scout formations would refute a teleport attack? My understanding of the teleport attack strategy is that it rests on the ability to destory valuable formations before they can act, or go into overwatch. The 10cm zone of control scouts exert, however, means that only a few stands can effectively deny teleporters the chance to engage such formations when they land. How does a terminator army circumvent this?

It?s not as if you need to build against terminators to do this. Scouts are not unusual in ?tournament lists? as far as I am aware ? I take them in my Eldar list as a cheap activation for example.

iv) Your principal objection appears to be about one aspect of a single army list, rather than the rules-set itself. If players in your area find it impossible to deal with this kind of army list, then perhaps it might be a better idea to simply not play that build? The other areas of your concern (activating on a 1+, they shall no know fear) are not, and have as far as I am aware never been, areas of concern amongst the Epic playing community, from casual to tournament players.

Augustus I've seen you offer these opinions about the invincibillity of Marines in Epic before, I dont see it and the majority of my opponetts just dont see it either, also you could check out their win/loss record over on the specialist games battlestats section to see that they are in no way dominate in the games played by all the epic fans over there who dont see this either.
and as has already been pointed out their are ways to modify the initiative number.
your example with the Leman Russ company vs three pedators groups is flawed as well in that the obvious counter to such a tactic is to simply shoot the russ company at the one remaining predator group that hasnt fired yet, chances are if your weapons are in range that you will destroy or suppress one third of the preds before they can do anything on the first turn of engagement, also the free commisaar you should have in the russ company will help the IG formation a bit. the all Terminator teleporting list is a one trick pony that is usually doomed to failure, I have seen it blown to smitherins twice myself, once by IG and once by Eldar, after teleporting it is simply too slow moving to redeploy on the field so a canny opponet can simply move away and then shoot it up from long range. scouts also hinder where the terminators can appear and how close they can try to interlock their supporting fire. Most of the SMs formations are small in number and tend to be destroyed instead of brocken when subjected to heavy fire. they also tend to be costly especially their Land raiders as an example. Anyway the actual Epic Armageddon system/rules are pretty good even if you dont like Marines the system itself is well written in my opinion.

Posted By Ahtman on 07/06/2006 3:21 PM
I still don't know whats wrong with Tau in Epic, other than Forgeworld only.

While I dont want to become dragged into the raging discussion on who does/doesnt like Epic, I would also be interested in the above question... I am always happy to take constructive criticism and ideas on the EA Tau list.

Feel free to open a fresh thread if it takes this one off topic.

Thanks.

 

One sad note on the revival of Epic is that GW is currently about to drive another nail into its coffin with the July 10th price increase. Some of the models are increasing as much as 120%! So while it may live on through after-market sales, Epic won't likely grow via new players entering the hobby and buying product from GW (which would go to funding development of new minis).