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I think TK is using this and some other parts of the report as a it bit of "misleading truth" to shift blame onto indies. I honestly feel that he considers anything outside of GW's direct control to be at minimum an annoyance and at worst something that has to be removed.

I'll agree with him that game stores, even well run gamestores do face the problems he mentions and many could be a lot could be better run, and in the end those are all major factors in the health of of a store. However, he leaves out the otherside of the story, which is supplier issues (not just GW, any retail has problems with suppliers). Of the stores i've been involved in, thats always been a major issue, and even a well run store can be dragged down by suppliers. the real question was probably why are indies pulling gw off their shelves (which seems to be happening a lot)?

In this case, while I know mikhaila has had good luck with GW (it may be a regional thing or other factor), the game stores i've been involved with often complain of unfilled orders, double charges, promises, late shipments, shipments of unordered (but charged for) merchandise and misshipments. one instead of getting boxes of ordered battleforces instead got three shipping boxes full of loose empire bowmen (invoice called them battleforces). A good store can work around that for a while before having to come up with a new strategy, but a poor store or low volume store can't put up with it for long.

Is it 100% GW fault if a store closes? No. But at the same time, I don't see GW doing much to support them.

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%" border=0> <TBODY> <TR> <TD colSpan=2> <TABLE class=afgrid cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%"> <TBODY> <TR> <TD class=afpostreply1 vAlign=top width="100%"> <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%" border=0> <TBODY> <TR> <TD class=afpostbody colSpan=2>Is it 100% GW fault if a store closes? No. But at the same time, I don't see GW doing much to support them. </TD></TR> <TR> <TD class=afpostattach colSpan=2></TD></TR> <TR> <TD class=afpostsig colSpan=2>

The sad truth? There is next to no support for stores from anyone in the industry that really amounts to much. Rather, there are 'tools' that are supplied to retailers by some manufacturers, and it's up to the retailer to use them, and try to get the most out of them. If a retailer doesn't do the work on their end, nothing happens. But if you can take advantage of what's given to you, it can go a long ways.

-Store listings on websites, my shops are on about a dozen, but I know other shops that don't bother sending in their store info. A store locator service that links directions is even better.

-Free listing in White Dwarf. This has brought me in a chunk of business over the years, and helped gamers new to the area find me.

-Inclusion in battle tours, online campaigns, and regional events, mostly from GW, but a bit from WOTC as well.

-Free racking. GW for years has supplied retailers with hundreds of dollars of free racks per store. Battlefront does the same for FOW now.

-League kits and prizes for quarterly gaming leagues. WOTC is the best supporter of these.

-Tournament kits. WOTC, GW, and PP do a good job with these.

-Posters, flyers, demo games, and other things that help you sell games. I get a few demo games each month. Little bits of cards and stuff in a plastic bag that lets me run a 5 minute intro, and see if people are interested. WOTC sent out a starter and a bunch of figures for the new Dreamblade game, that was helpful, and has some interest going.

-GW routinely sends me whole copies of new games, figures for demo games, and support for window displays. (We painted up 160 goblins for our Moria display that they sent us, along with about 200.00 in other miniatures. For COD they sent us two of the big Imperial City boxes, and a dozen Vostroyan snipers.) Battlefront was great when we started into FOW. They allowed several of us to handpick our 1500pt armies and sent them to us for free. (Talk about starting a war amongst the staff.) Both Battlefront and GW send me free copies of new rule books and codexs.

-Help in running games. GW has outriders and used to have metro managers. They were very helpful early on running tournaments, and helping us learn to make scenery. A couple of times they came by and constructed very nice 8'x4' gaming tables. (Kyran Henry made one of the best holes ever seen. We all still talk about "Kyrans great hole" in hushed whispers.)  Our privateer pressganger, Nate, does a lot for us, helps run a league, helps with tournaments.

Things off the top of my head that GW has given me over the years that  we have done business with them:

-Financing on large orders (50,000.00 in games or more). Big stock ups for Christmas with easy payments after they sell. Similar deals when setting up a new store.

- A wonderful demo table that's been in use in my mall shop. The sucker is movable, has drawers for the figures and dice, laminated wood signs, and two nice scenery boards, that you can flip over to change from 40k to fantasy/lotr.

- 3 huge showcases for miniatures

- 6 full sized game tables that my sales rep made and brought up to us.

- Thousands of dollars in free racks, signs, and display shelves.

- Many army boxes sent to me for free, to paint up for the display cases.

- Training for myself and my staff on how to run intro games, make scenery, and run a better store.

How much a store is going to get from any manufacturer is going to be in direct proportion to how much business they do, and how much they are willing to work with the manufacturer. Lots of stores simply expect that GW owes them somehow, and aren't willing to do much work to earn their assistance. Others are willing to work with a GW rep, and the relationship is mutually beneficial.

 

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One thing about mikhaila's store(s):

When you go in, there's always some improvement being done. There's always new tables, terrain, window displays, etc. being built. The staff is never sitting around playing card games and eating fritos complaining that GW is too expensive. The store always feels "fresh", clean, and exciting.

If you show up and have no one to play, someone who works there will play a game with you, and they all know how to play just about anything they sell.

I've been to plenty of game stores, and it's obvious to me that the store is successful because

a. He's a smart businessman.

b. He and his staff aren't lazy (and are in fact extremely industrious).

You mean to a loss?

Dont be stupid. Indies brought GW's product into the US market and did so quite well until GW stupidity. GW's first foray into the US market with their own stores in in the early and mid-90's was a disaster.

If GW put in the time and effort with the stores now, instead of some of the horror stories I hear, and act in an agonatisitc mannner, they might be doing a bit better. Some stores GW does actually treat as well, decent manner have done very well. But then again, they are best run and probably do well with or without GW.

When did US indie's bring similar or better ROI then the UK or Europe?

My big problem with the whole thing is how the GW rep apparently sent my store an e-mail with the upcoming releases. The manager didn't get it, I didn't get it, nobody got it. We had a system where we would call up on the Monday and get told what was new and then order it on top of our nice order. GW had their move and the new guy doesn't do that at all. He argued with me on the phone over a point and refused to back down when I pointed out he was wrong. He then suggested I try to order stuff through their direct sales system where the mark up is almost an insult. I wouldn't care if the Trade Sales magazine hadn't said it was available through June and I couldn't get it in APRIL. They pulled most of the customizing minis from their retailers and made them direct sales only. They have been doing things like this for a while.

Our store was regularly putting in orders for over $900 and we only got $200 because they pulled so much from independents. How is that a good business decision? Especially when you consider the people wanting the stuff refused to buy it after hearing they could only get it through GW directly. I happen to work for a place that has been working hard to innovate and carries probably some of the most diverse amount of product in the midwest. If GW really cared about selling more miniatures they'd see that letting the independents have full access to product line is a much better system than attempting to force consumers to go online or use a catalog.

Considering the people that give you exposure and give communities a place to play a competitor is bad business. Blaming declining profits when your tactics have hurt them and made your sales to them slump is just disingenious.

When did US indie's bring similar or better ROI then the UK or Europe?

Again, repeat after me, slowly.

The UK and EU market is NOT the US market.

Its a toss up which brings in more revenue: selling to indies, for a less profit, or selling direct from their own stores, which means you have to deal with overhead costs like rent, salaries, utilities, etc....

Different factors, one of which is geography. GW CANNOT cover the US market by itself, ESPECIALLY since it slit its throat by disallowing anyone besides itself from selling online.....

Again, repeat after me, slowly.
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no need for hostility

-ROI is ROI. you've made the claim that the US market has been profitable for them in the past. However, on an ROI basis UK and Europe have been better. On an EBITDA margin basis they have been better. On a total revenue basis they have been better.

EDIT: gone back and this is incorrect.  In 2001 "americas" was superior in both operating profit margin and actual operating profits, surpassing both the UK and the Euro markets.  Wow how the mighty have fallen indeed.

-No its not a toss up. If you had access to GW's books they will have that information in detail.

-Why do you believe it "slit its own throat" to disallow others from selling online. They now capture the full retail margin on their products. I'm occasionally surprised that they don't just shut down the US retail stores and do everything online. Not as much dollars in the door but then again, they'd actually be a going concern instead of a loss leader.

Why do you believe it "slit its own throat" to disallow others from selling online. They now capture the full retail margin on their products. I'm occasionally surprised that they don't just shut down the US retail stores and do everything online. Not as much dollars in the door but then again, they'd actually be a going concern instead of a loss leader.

Here's the thing. The US is HUGE. They dont have enough stores to cover the market, and frankly the way market is, there arent really enough indies to cover the market.

From my experience with my own retail store in another line of products, unrelated to gaming in general, I can tell you this for certain.

People like to shop online. Even for big ticket items you wouldnt normally expect them to.

GW has limited the ability for their consumer to buy their product online. You can ONLY buy online through there store.(barring ebay, or going out of country) At a high cost.

That doesnt sit well with a consumer. Conversely, you can buy a competitors items on line with ease.

GW indeed "slit its throat" with its ban. Go back to their 2001/2002 reports and watch the product numbers take a nose dive in the US market, once they insituted the ban. THe simple number of products NOT moving shows that they it wasnt the smartest move.

Yes the get all the marbles, but at what cost to the market as a whole?

Agreed on the size of the US market and the inability of GW to cover that with their own stores. But they are not limiting the ability to procure on the internet, no more than Dell is limiting your ability to buy a Dell online. They are just acting as a direct internet provider.

Agreed on the size of the US market and the inability of GW to cover that with their own stores. But they are not limiting the ability to procure on the internet, no more than Dell is limiting your ability to buy a Dell online. They are just acting as a direct internet provider.

I may have misread your post. But I don't think Dell told any online retailers of their product to 'cease and desist' selling said product via an electronic cart. Sure you can still get it elsewhere, but they did try to quash all internet sales in the US. Lot of good that did, you can get it cheaper from Canada with free shipping. Thanks Hill City Comics!

An intersting thread. Personally, I don't like the GW stores (never a sale and no room to play a regular -non-demo- game). I much prefer to go to a FLGS. I do not buy from GW on-line and will go out of my way to buy GW stuff from the "little guy" whether that is from a local shop, on-line from Canada, etc. What I know about GW's practices just make me want to go out of my way to help out the little guy that GW is trying to squash. Don't get me wrong though- I thoroughly enjoy GW's product line (as evidenced by the plethora of armies in my closet) and the game, I just don't like the way they treat their clients (FLGS and by extension me). Business is business, but they don't have to be asinine about it.

An interesting little technique GW used on a game store (not an FLGS - more a traditional gaming store, with RPGs, CCGs and a few wargames on the side) in my area (a long time ago, but the information comes from the store owner's wife). They essentially used the store to guage local interest in GW - there was no Indie retailer locally, so once it became apparent that there was demand for GW products (indeed, once the store had started its own little Wargaming community), GW opened up a Hobby Centre in the town and took not only their Warhammer players but their other wargamers as well. Ancient boxes of Babylon 5 and Confrontation miniatures stand as sad memorials to games once played - replaced by the GW monoculture that's so prevalent in Britain as a whole.

Is the UK a GW monoculture?

The impression I get from Wargames Illustrated magazine and the WWW is of a thriving non-GW wargames scene with local clubs, shows all over the country and a wide variety of figures and rules available from numerous small independent companies. There is also a reasonable number of independent shops.

No doubt that GW is by far the biggest company in wargames -- it dominates the "high street" and mass market -- but it's not the only one.

If a GW store can steal your customers, you're doing something seriously wrong.

Agreed on the size of the US market and the inability of GW to cover that with their own stores. But they are not limiting the ability to procure on the internet, no more than Dell is limiting your ability to buy a Dell online. They are just acting as a direct internet provider.

Yes actually, they are. Numbers back it up. Unit sales drop like a stone once that ban was insituted, and slipped further and further.

More than one person has pointed out, whether they worked in a store or not, folks do NOT want to deal with the GW online store. THey will do without.


Consumers, whether its toy soldiers or big ticket items, like a choice. To use your Dell example, yes you can only get Dell from the Dell online, but many folks dont wnat to do that so they build their own, go to best buy, or another manufacturer and buy there.

Same with GW. Some will buy, but a good number are turned off, and will look elesewhere for their models(bartertown, ebay) or go to a much more consumer friendly product(privateer press for example).

Dell aren't doing well recently.

Dell has also started to open up mall stores/kiosks...

GWUS's internet ban, while laudable for it's intentions of "protecting the LFGS", we all know that was but a thinly veiled pretense for GW to funnel more sales at full-retail cost. It's the same buisness plan: Discover the market (FLGS/internet), then elimnate the competion (open a Hobby Center/ban online sales). It's clear the internet sales ban had nothing to do with helping indies. Christ, more than a few used online sales as a secondary sales channel to support their local brick and mortar location. Not to mention all the fan communities that were supported online advertising. On top of that, at the same time the ban was instituted, GW's retailer support fell through the floor and the prices continue to reach more and more ridiculous levels. But hey, if GWUS want's to continue cutting off their nose to spite their face, more power to them.

Posted By nyarlathotep667 on 08/03/2006 12:19 PM
Dell has also started to open up mall stores/kiosks...

GWUS's internet ban, while laudable for it's intentions of "protecting the LFGS", we all know that was but a thinly veiled pretense for GW to funnel more sales at full-retail cost. It's the same buisness plan: Discover the market (FLGS/internet), then elimnate the competion (open a Hobby Center/ban online sales). It's clear the internet sales ban had nothing to do with helping indies. Christ, more than a few used online sales as a secondary sales channel to support their local brick and mortar location. Not to mention all the fan communities that were supported online advertising. On top of that, at the same time the ban was instituted, GW's retailer support fell through the floor and the prices continue to reach more and more ridiculous levels. But hey, if GWUS want's to continue cutting off their nose to spite their face, more power to them.

 

 

Correct on all points.

I talked to several FLGS owners at Gencon when that Ban went into effect. They were having clearance sales on all their GW stuff because they had had it with the company. One would think that if you were making policies that were getting you such feedback as "We will not carry your product anymore because of this policy." you'd think it a bad business decision. Instead they thought "Great, more internet sales for us!" What they got was a huge decline in sales.

And as for the person business that got nailed by a Hobby Center going up in their town: It's easy to lose to it. When you can't order stuff they can carry in stock because of "supply issues" they start taking business away.

If a GW store can steal your customers, you're doing something seriously wrong.

If your new releases get "lost in the mail" or "back ordered due to supply problems" or you only get 1/3 or your order, its very easy to lose out on sales of new items....

Now thats not to say their are not crappy stores that dont do the right things to keep people around, but to say its all your fault is a misnormer.

But good news. The local GW storein tha Palisades mall is closingf(or rather, its shutting its doors at the end of August). I knew it wouldnt last that long. The rent there is WAY too much....