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As far as for the GW forums being closed due to negative comments. Please show me any official documentation on this.

IMHO opinion the GW forums were closed due to Financial Costs of running the forums.

Just like the removal of the summer global contests (like Eye of Terror).
and
The removal of the Outrider program.
and
The removal of the painting academy where you use to get a carrying case.
and
The removal of Black Gobbo.
and so on....

IMHO these were all cost cutting matters nothing more and nothing less.

To simply shrug off the current outrage as the typical angry forum members is simplistic and in my opinion, wrong.

QTF

Adam LongWalker wrote:As far as for the GW forums being closed due to negative comments. Please show me any official documentation on this.

IMHO opinion the GW forums were closed due to Financial Costs of running the forums.

Just like the removal of the summer global contests (like Eye of Terror).
and
The removal of the Outrider program.
and
The removal of the painting academy where you use to get a carrying case.
and
The removal of Black Gobbo.
and so on....

IMHO these were all cost cutting matters nothing more and nothing less.

It was almost certainly a cost-benefit analysis, which is a different thing. And although I think it's a huge mistake to cut off channels of communication with your customers, those forums were a disaster and an extremely poor method of communication thanks to the signal-to-noise ratio. There are many things they should be doing, but forums aren't one of them, IMO.

Regarding the letter -- personally, I took the response as a sign that they're listening just a little closer. How many letters did Kirby ever send? There's no way that they're blind to the fact that Finecast was a bit of a roll of the dice. And about the tone and the fact that it's probably a cut-and-paste...Mark Wells is the CEO, and GW is a public company. I certainly have my frustations with GW too, but people have to keep it real about what he can say and what actual time capacity he has to send personalized letters to customers.

Re: Jervis, I've only ever chatted with him at events and have never been to Bugman's. However, I have exchanged snail mails with him on the topic of LatD and their elimination. He outlined their case as best he could, and although I didn't get the answer I wanted, it was a very good exchange. Not-getting-the-answer-you-want-to-hear <> fail.

It costs a lot of money to run forums professionally, with full-time paid moderators and so on.

I remember on the old GW forums, Jervis himself popped up once to explain a controversial points system for a tournament that everyone was ranting about.

Of all the things that people were ranting about, it seemed an odd thing to defend. Maybe it was something close to his heart.

It was almost certainly a cost-benefit analysis, which is a different thing. And although I think it's a huge mistake to cut off channels of communication with your customers, those forums were a disaster and an extremely poor method of communication thanks to the signal-to-noise ratio. There are many things they should be doing, but forums aren't one of them, IMO.

In your opinion that may be so. IMHO it is not. I enjoyed the GW forums as I was able to make contact with the company as well as people around the world. Forums controlled by a company can rid of the many problems that are plaguing the company of late.

Such as rumors.

Apolisgists have stated that the reason for the GW forum closure is the massive ranting over there yet they have not given me any official documentation of their comment.

IMHO it is a financial one.

Now having GW on Face book? Cheap alternative.

Next: If Jervis Johnson has given people the time to talk about certain things then I give him credit for doing so.

As far as Mark Wells? I'll stick to my previous comments.

Come on, we both know that people had issues with GW about all the same issues -- prices, rules problems, greed, etc. -- when those forums were open. Heck, they said the same stuff back in the old rec.games.miniatures.warhammer days. Anti-GW rants are eternal.

Now, if you're going to say that GW didn't utilize the forums well or often enough as a means to engage its customer base, I might agree with you. It kinda seemed like they gained the technology but not an understanding or a plan for how to use the forums effectively to grow their business. Of course cost was an issue. Everything costs. But I'm sure the lack of any kind of return for their money played a role too.

Regarding social media, etc, lots of companies and organizations have developed innovative and interesting ways to engage their customers, and it's not always expensive. Note that I'm not saying that GW fits into this category, as witnessed by their approach to information control via a print magazine. But I think people at least need to keep it real about some forums that were collectively known as the "Eye of Terror" for a reason. IMO, there were other cuts that were much more of a mistake.

Kilkrazy wrote:It costs a lot of money to run forums professionally, with full-time paid moderators and so on.

Then how can smaller companies - such as Privateer Press - manage to do so?

I think that was sarcasm... it takes very little to run a forum, anyone with a linux box on the internet can download free forum packages. It takes a little more to add your own touches, but the basics are trivial.

Redbeard wrote:I think that was sarcasm... it takes very little to run a forum, anyone with a linux box on the internet can download free forum packages. It takes a little more to add your own touches, but the basics are trivial.

If it gets above a non-trivial amount of volume it can turn into a pain. Ask LegoBurner and yakface. Especially since Dakka is advertising funded... Anyway, keepin up with security and spammer prevention is a real pain int he rear, personally, and not something I'd suggest anyone get into lightly.

As for GW, I kind of wondered if the forums were software only one or two people in their IT/Web Dev group understood, and when they moved on it wasn't deemed worth it to replace them. It was a pretty non-standard and cranky forum setup, as most follow the bbcode standard for user experience and data entry to a lesser or greater extent.

I figure the same thing happened with their army creation software. The one guy who knew how to release patches quit, so they were left with no one comfortable upgrading it and abandoned it.

Cost cutting might have been a factor as well. The only statement about the forums I remember was along the lines of 'GW believes other forums can do it better than our own' which si kind of funny considering how they've gone after Blood Bowl player forums and such!

Still, running a forum isn't a huge $ expense, but can be a massive time-sink.

Dysartes wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:It costs a lot of money to run forums professionally, with full-time paid moderators and so on.

Then how can smaller companies - such as Privateer Press - manage to do so?

I think they use volunteer moderators, like GW used to. I.e. not professionally run, with full-time paid mods.

Can anyone confirm this?

Kilkrazy wrote:

Dysartes wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:It costs a lot of money to run forums professionally, with full-time paid moderators and so on.

Then how can smaller companies - such as Privateer Press - manage to do so?

I think they use volunteer moderators, like GW used to. I.e. not professionally run, with full-time paid mods.

Can anyone confirm this?

The only contact I've had with PP made it clear that the guy in charge of the webstore is also one of the forum mods.

KillKrazy wrote:

I think they use volunteer moderators, like GW used to. I.e. not professionally run, with full-time paid mods.

Can anyone confirm this?

I believe that during the summer global campaigns that the mods where on a volunteer basis. The regular forum I can not say one way or another.

Adam LongWalker wrote:As far as for the GW forums being closed due to negative comments. Please show me any official documentation on this.

IMHO opinion the GW forums were closed due to Financial Costs of running the forums.

Just like the removal of the summer global contests (like Eye of Terror).
and
The removal of the Outrider program.
and
The removal of the painting academy where you use to get a carrying case.
and
The removal of Black Gobbo.
and so on....

IMHO these were all cost cutting matters nothing more and nothing less.

To simply shrug off the current outrage as the typical angry forum members is simplistic and in my opinion, wrong.

QTF

I'm not going to try and go back years to find a letter or email from GW about why they closed the forums, but I've had numerous talks with upper management about it. The feeling was that they didn't have the manpower to police them, but didn't want an official warhammer forum turning into a cesspool of complaining, which was starting to happen. With so many other active forums, they felt their own was not absolutely needed.

Outrider program got cut for several reasons. One was a lot more need to police and organize outriders. Some were taking advantage of the system for their own gain. (I found out one guy was claiming he ran 'events' at my store on mondays and wednesdays each wee, and was collecting swag for his hard work. In reality he just showed up to the league we'd been running for years, plaid a game, and claimed his 'rewards'. The biggest reason for the cancellation of Outrider/Kommandos was the problem with taxes. GW was giving out enough in swag to the average outrider that some states were considering it a job, and GW was going to have to treat them as employees with healthcare, benefits, and taxes collected. 50 states worth of different paperwork to file.

I think we are getting a GSC for Storm of Magic.

No clue on Black gobbo, I mis the git.

Academy program? Good someways, but hardly an earthshaking change.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dysartes wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:It costs a lot of money to run forums professionally, with full-time paid moderators and so on.

Then how can smaller companies - such as Privateer Press - manage to do so?

GW could afford it, they just chose not to. PP finds it efficient to do so. PP and GW have different areas of the hobby for support. PP puts it into a forum, and pressgangers, but not much store support. GW doesn't have forums or outriders, but they just sent me a ton of free racking for my new store, hosted TOS, and have all the various Gamesdays.

I used to post some on the old forum.

It was a train wreckof epic proportions. If it wasn't the same question five to fifty times a month, it was E peen stroking at its best.

They did a solid closing it down.

I can agree with mikhaila on this point about the $$$ issue. Especially if you have seen a few examples of what he's talking about.

theres a far cray from Forum's to the other issues. Basicly they all boil down to mismanagement.

You can give a guy what was it?- "Hundreds of dollars in shelving and wracks" BUT you can't use the internet to project information, nurture discussion, and diseminate information?

Come on... How much do Dakka Dakka mods get paid again?

Swap shop does so bad that people actually USE it?

Area where people can shoot the breeze and theory hammer out army lists and get ripped up and get feedback?


No, the forums were being run by low level flunkies that really didn't have a stake in them, they were just a low level minion job for..low level minions.

the decision to give out "Hundreds of dollers in racks" is on par with the forums.

If they did it right, it would sell product.

Instead, Shortsighted sales for the up front hard sell for the store, and not cultivating a following with the suckers. typical GW move typicaly done.

the decision to give out "Hundreds of dollers in racks" is on par with the forums.
If they did it right, it would sell product.
Instead, Shortsighted sales for the up front hard sell for the store, and not cultivating a following with the suckers. typical GW move typicaly done

I am so not following you on what your trying to say.)

On the racking: GW has produced high quality wire racking for use in their own stores for a couple of decades. They give it out free to new stores setting up, and make it available for sale if you need more. It's very, very good stuff, and helps to sell their product by displaying it properly.

If a store is doing regular orders, they'll keep sending you racking as you need it. I've never paid for a rack in 20 years. It doesn't come with strings attatched. I don't have to place a big order to get it, just ask for it, and they ship it to me free. For the new store we're moving to, I'm using over 70 feet of wall space for GW, and asked for all new racking because my old stuff has got bent to hell over the years. You'd be amazed what rugrats in a mall will climb.) Store fixtures are a huge part of start up costs for many stores, and having this available from GW helps out a lot of start ups. How you display merchandise in a store can have a huge influence on sales. These racks help a store make money, and GW make money.

The only other company that supplies racking is Battlefront Miniatures. No surprise, as 80% of BF staff worked for GW at some point, and they have kept a lot of the good ideas .

I belive Grot 6 was simply using a the promotional racking as an example of a great marketing idea implemented well.

As opposed to the 'GW forums' which were a missed oportunity to engage with the customer base, due to poor managment .

Possibley due to the apparent negative opinion of the internet held by GWplc , compared to thier apparent obsesion with B&M stores.

But I could be wrong?

Agreed Lanrak while other companies do take advantage of the modern tools given at the time GW blew it by mismanaging their resources.

It still comes down to the loss of their market base, in which why actions taken by the corporation of this time are being implemented.

I must say, the recent thread on the new FW dreadnought is quite the enigma in comparison to other GW threads.

GW is getting a (quite rightly) good shoeing lately.

FW on the other hand seem to be getting things right and are winning praise.

The same company with different divisions each eilliciting a different reaction. A lesson for the larger company perhaps?

Probably due to the fact that everyone knows that Forgeworld goods are a luxury extra, it's you're choice if you want to add them to your army. If you don't buy them, then your army won't suffer, whereas with the mainstream GW models you have to buy them. Otherwise you just get to play with the AoBR box set, and that means somewhat limited game play

Lanrak wrote:I belive Grot 6 was simply using a the promotional racking as an example of a great marketing idea implemented well.

As opposed to the 'GW forums' which were a missed oportunity to engage with the customer base, due to poor managment .

Possibley due to the apparent negative opinion of the internet held by GWplc , compared to thier apparent obsesion with B&M stores.

But I could be wrong?

Yes sir, that is correct.

My example is exacly that.

Trasvi wrote:
so if you want to play their games, you must buy their models.

I'm going to have to go ahead and correct you on this one.

You can play their GAMES just fine without their models. The rules have nothing to do with what the model aesthetics are beyond easily ignorable/changeable names.

What you mean to say is that if you want to play their UNIVERSE, you must buy their models, which is also patently untrue. The amount of Guard, Inquisition, and Chaos armies(to name a few) that include models not from GW(or made entirely of non-GW figures, such as Pig Iron and WGF Greatcoats) proves you wrong.

The only time what you said is true is in official GW events.

^^^^^

to add to this, I have actually stopped buying imperial guard, and phased my GW guard out completely. Over priced and too few in the box, and don't like any of the designs GW puts out for guard.

the part i think is laughable is this

"As for the legal action we take against infringers, I don’t think we have any choice. They have taken, without our permission, intellectual property which our design teams have taken years to develop and have used it for their own commercial purposes. That is clearly morally and legally wrong. If companies want to make product using our intellectual property then they should approach us for a licence, like Fantasy Flight Games have. Provided they meet our quality standards and our minimum royalty requirements, then we will consider them. But they can’t simply steal from us and expect us to ignore them. "

note the part i bolded, it sounds to me like their copywriting "thought" oooo noo look out for the idea police. lets see, how many things out their did they put in codex's and did not make models for........ um alot! so wait, i made a tervigon out of GW bits, now mind you even though i did it with GW parts by that statement cause i made it (even for myself) i just stole thier.. Idea so i should be procecuted. whatever. o and i got my thunderwolf cavalry from another vendor that actually decided to take the time to make the wolves. i suppose he should be sued too, GW get a life.

o yes im sure it took them "years" to think up thunderwolf cavalry. hmmmm. space wolves, space wolves..... space marines, and wolves, ..... space marines RIDING WOLVES HA HAAA....

I'm a fan of...

Y U NO DROP PRICEES!?!?!?


Really though, this alone kinda makes me want to stop buying from GW.

For all of those playing generic space marines, it should nto hurt to stop buying so much, because all you need to play after you finish up the army is the rule book and codex. I honestly do not think a vanilla space marine dex is going to do a complete change in direction. Other threads have already stated, that all one needs to do from edition to addition is change the squads they already have to match the new dex.

o i think i may re-make my tau army, and it will have absolutely no GW models what-so-ever. HA!

Well, there isn't any harm in using what you got.

Or you could give it to me...get rid of those abominations

btemple0 wrote:For all of those playing generic space marines, it should nto hurt to stop buying so much, because all you need to play after you finish up the army is the rule book and codex. I honestly do not think a vanilla space marine dex is going to do a complete change in direction. Other threads have already stated, that all one needs to do from edition to addition is change the squads they already have to match the new dex.

HA! funny

the change from 4th Edition to 5th Edition Codex Marines Cost me over at least $57.50 before I had to even pick up new models(5 Apothecaries I couldn't use any more due do the lost of Custom Rules for chapters). I also had to make the costly change of From Plasma Gun/Missile Launcher Squads to Combi Melta & Melta/ML or MM in my tac squads, not a small fee to say the least as in the new edition Combi Melta and MMs prices put hurt on anyone's wallet after having to equip 3-4 Tactical Squads, then the price of having to switch Rhinos to Razorbacks and having to pick up Plasma Gun to covert them to Las/Plas Razor.

rough Estimate of costs to over haul a 4th Ed Marine army to a 5th:
Loss of Apothecaries $57.50
Melta Guns(5) $8
4 Razorback Turrets $71.96
Plasma Guns(10) $16
3 Multi meltas $42
Total: $195.46

I hate to think of what it will cost me to switch from a 5thed to a 6thed army.

Back on track:
I am still amazed that someone responded to the OP's email at all with something other than a cooky cutter response

Platuan4th wrote:

Trasvi wrote:
so if you want to play their games, you must buy their models.

I'm going to have to go ahead and correct you on this one.

You can play their GAMES just fine without their models. The rules have nothing to do with what the model aesthetics are beyond easily ignorable/changeable names.

What you mean to say is that if you want to play their UNIVERSE, you must buy their models, which is also patently untrue. The amount of Guard, Inquisition, and Chaos armies(to name a few) that include models not from GW(or made entirely of non-GW figures, such as Pig Iron and WGF Greatcoats) proves you wrong.

The only time what you said is true is in official GW events.

+1

I think GW is slowly dieing, like an old man that can't let that last breath leave him. They're clining on to what little knowledge the wider world has of them without advertising correctly.

Then again, advertising would just show how bad the prices are all over again.

Adam LongWalker wrote:As far as for the GW forums being closed due to negative comments. Please show me any official documentation on this.

I don't know what 'documentation' people expect to see for the reasons behind them closing their forums, they aren't going to be honest if it doesn't reflect well upon them and it was quite a few years ago now and it's all long been wiped so people only have memories to go on.

Frankly they weren't very good forums, very basic and nor particularly easy to use. There were a lot of rules on the forum that frustrated people. For instance you could ask about tactics and rules questions, but they didn't like anyone reproducing any rules or parts of stat lines which somewhat made it difficult to make a specific point.

You couldn't post pictures of your stuff or links to anything which makes the modelling section a bit difficult.

They flat out banned any conversation that wasn't about the fluff/game, anything regarding pricing or company policies was removed, as was even a passing mention to another company. Yes it's a forum on the company website, but their control was draconian.

They actually had a rule that banned the mentioning of squats, even in passing.

The forums didn't close all in one go, the White Dwarf section closed months before the rest. The White Dwarf section was always full of complaints and why do you suppose that was? Because the magazine is crap. When a new editor took over they claimed that they read the forums and would try to act upon advice there. And people actually tried to give sensible, constructive advice and wrote very large posts about changes they would like and how they could be achieved. And the editor actually told people that changes would take a while because White Dwarf is written in advance but expect some improvements within 3 months and it all seemed very positive. Six months later people were upset because there were no changes and now no one from White Dwarf was visiting any more and they felt misled. Forum staff actually put something in the rules, I forget the way it was phrased, to the effect that people should restrict their comments to positive things, which led to them removing a lot of criticism, even of the reasonable sort. Then a bit later GW shut the section down because it was full of people who were fairly upset on a daily basis about the way they had been misled and GW were now dealing with their complaints by removing them.

I don't know about the rest of the forum, it was a pretty low quality of 'discussion' full of text speak even though that was supposedly against the rules too. They eventually closed the thing down with some comment that it was better serving the community this way and that there were other online communities that people could join. Which makes me laugh now, because GW have spent the last few years trying to fight the spread of information on independent sites outside their draconian control. But maybe their own forums were just too much hassle and cost to bother with, and frankly they did look like a blemish on their corporate website, a cheap nasty forum that was constantly full of rage partly fostered by the very way GW was running it.