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Deathshead420 wrote:

Infinity does look kinda cool , if it was around when i was a child in the 80's then i would hold it in high regards too.

Which is a little ironic, as GWs core game rules were designed in the 90's (with 3rd edition, and are arguably pretty much the same now, with minor alterations), whereas Infinity's rules are a combination of some very, very good rules writing, at least based in part on experiences in games such as 40k and other ones which have come before.

It sounds a little bit pretentious, but I think it really is an evolution of tabletop skirmish gaming.

Edit-for early morning stupidity

@pacific Do you round up all of your numbers?
I didnt say anything about 3rd ed.

warhammer 40,000 rogue trader

Designer
Rick Priestley
Artist
John Sibbick
Publisher
Games Workshop Ltd.
Year Published
1987



When i was kid my older cousin had rogue trader and all incarnations since then , and i always wanted to mess with them and he always told me they were not toys. Now I'm 32 (old)and as far as i'm concerned GW is the top wargame, because its what i know. It was my opinion. Here is some more of my opinion Infinity will be popular for a limited time , i will buy some ...for conversions. Wouldn't mind trying one of the space games as i'm a scifi junky and not a big fan of GW ships. Warpath might be ok time will tell. I did not tell you 40k was the best for you i said it was the best....sorry if i left out the IMO.

Rouge trader. Supplying beauty concessions and hobbyists alike since 1987.

I always do that, rogue rouge close if your sleep at the wheel.

MAD LEET MS PAINT SKILLZ ALERT!

Rouge Trader:

I suspect Infinity will keep on growing. The short play time, amazing minis, and plausible (not quite realistic, but plausible) setting, combine to give it a significant advantage in the marketplace.

And the bloody incredible rules system...

Pacific, you seem like Infinity fan #1, can you direct me to somewhere I can read up on the basics of play and the rules?

Here is the entire rules set:
http://members.iinet.com.au/~tenabrae/infinity/Infinity2_2b.pdf

It exists with Corvus Belli's blessing, and is a consolidated version of the main rulebook and the Human Sphere expansion rulebook...but written more concisely than CB managed to write their own published version (which you get for the fluff).

Here is Beast of War's quick start rules:
http://www.beastsofwar.com/wp-content/uploads/Infinity-QuickStartRules-V1.pdf
...also with CB's blessing.

Here is a Youtube channel with fluff and rules introductions:
http://www.youtube.com/user/CorvusBelliSLL
...use it for fluff at first, then read BoWs QSR, then see the videos and consult the rulebook.

Wiki: http://infinitythegame.wikispot.org/Home

Well, that should do it! Thanks, Kaptajn.

These non-GW games might start to get some of my hobby money when and if they start producing plastic or resin models. As long as they stay with metal, I'll continue giving my money to GW.

Breotan wrote:These non-GW games might start to get some of my hobby money when and if they start producing plastic or resin models. As long as they stay with metal, I'll continue giving my money to GW.

Dystopian Wars is in resin. Just FYI.

Many of these smaller games become more and more like GW over time:

Lets look at Warmachine for example. Early on it was proclaimed the "Anti-GW" for various reasons:

1. Supposedly "true skirmish" because the company isn't greedy like the "Evil Empire".
2. Metal models only because "plastic is for toys".
3. No army books which are simply "money grabs".
4.Perfectly balanced and written, so it won't need a rules rewrite regularly

etc., etc.

As time has marched on WM games have gotten larger, plastic models have appeared, and army books have arrived, we have MKII and have needed to buy three rulesbooks and three editions of cards thus far...

The lines are slowly blurring...

Still playing.

Haven't bought much recently, but I'm still enjoying the game.

htj wrote:

Breotan wrote:These non-GW games might start to get some of my hobby money when and if they start producing plastic or resin models. As long as they stay with metal, I'll continue giving my money to GW.

Dystopian Wars is in resin. Just FYI.

That's that naval game, right? I thought they used metal for a lot of their stuff. In fact, I remember some of their Firestorm Armada stuff being metal. I'll check it out again to and see how things are.

@CT GAMER

Yeah, it's just a sad fact of life. The bigger the companies get, the less friendly they become.

Heh, I wonder if in 10 years time we'll see threads about 'the great PP exodus.' And we will read them in our flying cars.

Breotan wrote:

htj wrote:

Breotan wrote:These non-GW games might start to get some of my hobby money when and if they start producing plastic or resin models. As long as they stay with metal, I'll continue giving my money to GW.

Dystopian Wars is in resin. Just FYI.

That's that naval game, right? I thought they used metal for a lot of their stuff. In fact, I remember some of their Firestorm Armada stuff being metal. I'll check it out again to and see how things are.

Yep, steampunk naval game. The aeroplanes are metal and some of the bits (like turrets) but the vast bulk of it is resin. Every model apart from the planes, I think.

1. Supposedly "true skirmish" because the company isn't greedy like the "Evil Empire".
Still skirmish. Of course, after 8 years, it's only logical to assume that some people would buy enough to field larger armies. Thus the Unbound Rules - Warmachines' 'free' large scale ruleset. Which can be totally and completely ignored for smaller (i.e., normal) games.

2. Metal models only because "plastic is for toys".
Well, you've got them there. Except for the fact that the plastic resculpts were far and above what the metals used to be. Oh, and you got a lot more options for only a little more options. Oh, and the fact that an overwhelming large amount of the Warmachine and Hordes model line is still metal.

3. No army books which are simply "money grabs".
Only, the books aren't necessary .The cards are all you need to play. You can pick up a deck for $16 on eBay. And each model/unit comes with its own card. Got one out of date? Then talk to either your local game store owner who can replace it for you, or have him call Privateer Press, who will send you a replacement.

4.Perfectly balanced and written, so it won't need a rules rewrite regularly.
Honestly, this is just silly. Expecting a new company to create a game with expansions and have it hold completely true to form shouldn't be done. Ok, yes - there was a rules re-write. But, unlike other companies, it was perfectly warranted, since the game was off. And the new rules both a) improved upon the old rules, and b) didn't take a good chunk of what was good in mk.I and make it bad in mk.II.

Deathshead420 wrote: Here is some more of my opinion Infinity will be popular for a limited time , i will buy some ...for conversions.

I would be interested to see what you base this prediction on. I'm not saying you're wrong, however, I fail to see how a game can be popular "for a time" and then simply die. In the same way that people are / where reluctant to leave GW products, because of prior investment and the fact that they enjoyed the background, etc etc, the same could be said about any game. Once people decide they like the background, fluff, or setting, and once they invest in the game, they'll likely be in for the long haul.

There is one factor that could sink Infinity, and that is the same factor as any game out there, if the company responsible for the game screw things up by making decisions that are detrimental to the fabric of the game. So far, GW has done this on many occassions, where as Corvus Belli hasn't, so far, put a foot wrong.

infinite_array wrote:
1. Supposedly "true skirmish" because the company isn't greedy like the "Evil Empire".
Still skirmish. Of course, after 8 years, it's only logical to assume that some people would buy enough to field larger armies. Thus the Unbound Rules - Warmachines' 'free' large scale ruleset. Which can be totally and completely ignored for smaller (i.e., normal) games.

2. Metal models only because "plastic is for toys".
Well, you've got them there. Except for the fact that the plastic resculpts were far and above what the metals used to be. Oh, and you got a lot more options for only a little more options. Oh, and the fact that an overwhelming large amount of the Warmachine and Hordes model line is still metal.

3. No army books which are simply "money grabs".
Only, the books aren't necessary .The cards are all you need to play. You can pick up a deck for $16 on eBay. And each model/unit comes with its own card. Got one out of date? Then talk to either your local game store owner who can replace it for you, or have him call Privateer Press, who will send you a replacement.

4.Perfectly balanced and written, so it won't need a rules rewrite regularly.
Honestly, this is just silly. Expecting a new company to create a game with expansions and have it hold completely true to form shouldn't be done. Ok, yes - there was a rules re-write. But, unlike other companies, it was perfectly warranted, since the game was off. And the new rules both a) improved upon the old rules, and b) didn't take a good chunk of what was good in mk.I and make it bad in mk.II.

CT GAMER wrote:
Point was that many of the things that people claimed as reasons to leave GW and start WM are now happening with WM.

I have played Warmachine since before original Prime hit the shelves, and I find the extremes of fanboi-isms on both sides amusing/sad, especially when the two are slowly becoming more and more alike...

I don't even play Warmachine. But, yes - one has to admit, it does seem that Privateer Press is becoming more like GW as they grow. I'll still argue against it, since it seems that the reasons why PP are doing it are different from GW's meddlings.

One can only hope that they still try and communicate with their customers in some way.

I have stayed completely with the GW minis.

CT GAMER wrote:Many of these smaller games become more and more like GW over time:

Lets look at Warmachine for example. Early on it was proclaimed the "Anti-GW" for various reasons:

1. Supposedly "true skirmish" because the company isn't greedy like the "Evil Empire".
2. Metal models only because "plastic is for toys".
3. No army books which are simply "money grabs".
4.Perfectly balanced and written, so it won't need a rules rewrite regularly

etc., etc.

As time has marched on WM games have gotten larger, plastic models have appeared, and army books have arrived, we have MKII and have needed to buy three rulesbooks and three editions of cards thus far...

The lines are slowly blurring...

That's... certainly a unique take on things.

You seem to think that they owe it to themselves to take an adversarial position to GW innovations simply for the sake of being adversarial: rules for larger games and plastic models are clearly attributable to the desires of the player base, who, shockingly, want rules for when they feel like breaking out larger parts of their collections and, again shockingly, like plastic models.

As for the comments on books and rules, I'm honestly not clear what you are talking about: while it would be hard to play without Prime or Primal Mk.II, that's honestly the only books you need. Given the existence of things like Battlecollege, there is no need to buy either the army books or the decks, unless you want the background and artwork contained within. But that's no more "needed" then saying you have to buy black library books for background. Put another way;

If I have the Prime Mk.II book, I can buy pretty much anything and know exactly how to use it with the rules in the book and the rules in the box; whether it be a box of Bane Knights, Garryth or Wracks. I know their stats, their special rules, their cost, etc.

If I have the 40k rulebook, I have to buy the Codecii, or I simply have no idea what a given unit does. If I have the big book, buying a box of Wyches gives me no more information on their special rules, their weapons than if I had bought a box of terminators or a Stormraven: absent the Codex, I have no idea what anything does. That's a paradigm where you "need" to buy the army books.

That's not to say there isn't a kernel of truth to the idea that as companies get larger they will embrace some elements of what GW does, because, while we may tend to forget it, GW does do a lot of good things, especially with regards to converting from metal to plastic models.

Also, of course all of these companies are largely similar: they're all selling the same type of product, so in the end the differences will tend to be slight. But those slight differences have huge repercussion. Just look a few posts earlier and you see links to the complete rules for Infinity, re-edited by the fans with the knowledge and permission of CB. PP has not only battle college, but their own quite extensive forums for their games. These may be small things, but they reflect a huge difference in corporate culture in these companies as compared to GW.

For as long as PP remains a private company, and doesn't have new minature/line/codex/editions releases made at the behest of the sales department, there will still be a gulf in between the way the 2 companies do business.

To be honest, I am glad there is the competition starting to form now. These newer companies are having to make a real effort to please the fans in order to steal custom from GW, and who knows maybe in time GW will realise it isn't the only manufacturer in the field and will be forced to up their own ideas also.

Buzzsaw wrote:

You seem to think that they owe it to themselves to take an adversarial position to GW innovations simply for the sake of being adversarial:

You've missed the point.

I don't think they should do anything, nor have I ever proclaimed them the "Anti-GW",etc.

My point was that fans/customers rushed to proclaim them as such and foist all kinds of expectations and false claims on them right from the beginning. I have always taken the stance that PP will have to do a number of things that these fanbois are claiming will never happen, and will choose to do others simply because they make sense.

I remember people flaming myslef and others to no end we stated that WM would indeed have new editions that would require new rulebooks and invalidate cards, etc.

I remember people telling me to "go play GW" when I stated that i wanted plastic/resin WM models and suggested they would do so.

I remember people stating that PP would never do a rules set for mass battles because that was what companies did as money grabs...

The list could go on and on, etc., etc.

I'm all for being excited about a new or alternative game, but when one let's one fanboiism cloud common sense, well...

CT GAMER wrote:

Buzzsaw wrote:

You seem to think that they owe it to themselves to take an adversarial position to GW innovations simply for the sake of being adversarial:

You've missed the point.

I don't think they should do anything, nor have I ever proclaimed them the "Anti-GW",etc.

My point was that fans/customers rushed to proclaim them as such and foist all kinds of expectations and false claims on them right from the beginning. I have always taken the stance that PP will have to do a number of things that these fanbois are claiming will never happen, and will choose to do others simply because they make sense.

I remember people flaming myslef and others to no end we stated that WM would indeed have new editions that would require new rulebooks and invalidate cards, etc.

I remember people telling me to "go play GW" when I stated that i wanted plastic/resin WM models and suggested they would do so.

I remember people stating that PP would never do a rules set for mass battles because that was what companies did as money grabs...

The list could go on and on, etc., etc.

I'm all for being excited about a new or alternative game, but when one let's one fanboiism cloud common sense, well...

Not to be rude, but if what you're saying is that the wholly ungrounded claims of random people over the years will be dashed on the rocks of reality... well, duh.

Buzzsaw wrote:

Not to be rude, but if what you're saying is that the wholly ungrounded claims of random people over the years will be dashed on the rocks of reality... well, duh.

Exactlyt, and it applies to this thread as well...

To say that PP or CB will become "more like" GW also misses the larger point: CB, PP and GW (along with pretty much everyone else in this market) are already very, very similar. Of course they are, they are all makers of miniature wargames that produce both rules and miniatures.

We can't hold these companies to the exaggerated and uninformed claims made randomly on the internet: but, we can look at, say, GW, and point out that there are a number of failings unique to them that are, shall we say, unlikely to be repeated by others;

-Are other companies likely to have a near company wide price increase, while at the same time paying a dividend that will channel hundreds of thousands of dollars into the pockets of the company board members?

-Are they likely to declare that attempting to play their game in a serious way is doing it wrong, and that the company has no interest in writing rules to support high level play in a balanced fashion?

-Are they going to declare that certain design decision were undertaken because their minor children were confused?

-Are they going to support independent retailers only until the point that they are able to then undercut them with their own chain of stores?

-Are they going to engage in specious litigation with the aim of asserting, through intimidation, untenable control of areas of IP?

Now, this is by no means an exclusive list, but I think it does serve to illustrate that many of GW's particular failings are unlikely to be replicated by it's competitors, no matter how similar they become.

CT GAMER wrote:

Buzzsaw wrote:

Not to be rude, but if what you're saying is that the wholly ungrounded claims of random people over the years will be dashed on the rocks of reality... well, duh.

Exactlyt, and it applies to this thread as well...

Honestly, this thread has gone far off it's original mark. It was supposed to be a 'I said I would quit GW, and I have, so here's what I'm doing' thread. For example, in my own time I haven't bought anything GW in half a year (except for a Citadel battlemat, which isn't produced anymore anyway). My current projects are:

Flames of War: Painting my Brit Rifles and German Panzerkompanie. Continue to make terrain (which, to my delight, I have realized to be fun!)

Other Historicals: I plan on picking up something from Warlord Games, most likely a Napoleonic British Infantry boxset (free shipping at the moment, so ~40 28mm figures for under $25. I'll never touch GW again at this rate...). Also still contemplating either 6mm ACW or Napoleonics from Baccus to use with the Blackpowder ruleset. I've also been looking at Force on Force - either Tomorrow's War or Cold War Gone Hot, whichever tickles my fancy.

Battletech: Diving in headfirst. I have the boxset miniatures split into 2 semi-even forces (Houses Davion and Kurita for the 4th Succession War), and I need to grab a copy of Strategic Operations for the Quickstrike ruleset. I've also set out to collect some of the older models (lead miniatures? Not in my time. Should be interesting, however).


Instead, this thread has - as is unfortunately common - descended into yet another GW vs. PP & everyone else argument.

I stoped buying GW miniatures, excepet for a casual set of orks i want to build and paint. GW is still great for collecting, but is just dumb to play...

My group play 40k more than everything else, so i still play 40k, normally with proxys (as i dont have a huge collection).

But let me ask: as a costumer, dont you feel cheated with finecast (or should i say finecost?), or with the new 5 marines boxes at the price of 10? Or the agraved codex creep, that make avery new codex better than all the others? Or the rules that dont make sense at all (like the misterious dimension of inner vehicle)? Or the constant price rises, in kits that we know they have in stock for years? The special not written rule that say "space marines should sell, so they should win 90% of time"?

And you know what, that is all a shame, because actually we want to buy GW, but they dont care about us... You can say its a "big company thing". But coke, Mc Donalds, Ford, Microsoft, Hasbro, Wizards of the Coast, Blizzard, and other big companies around, at least try to convince me they like me, even if only for my money...