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Connor McKane wrote:
10. LA-02 (Joseph Cao, R) - New Orleans, Kenner, Marrero, Timberlane, Estelle.
Demographics: 64.1% Black; 30.2% White; 3.8% Hispanic; 2.7% Asian; 2.6% Other; 0.3% Native American.
Median Household Income: $27,514
2008 Election Result: Barack Obama (D) 74.13% - John McCain (R) 24.86%.CPVI: D+25

Emphasis mine.

With only this data, you can argue that they voted for Obama because they were poor, because they are black, or because they are Democrats. Don't look to hard into the representative being Republican. That's a democratic district. He's the first Republican in over a 100 years from that district.

The New Orleans area is very democratic. Louisiana is a funny state. The north half is very conservative, strongly republican, and is definitely in the bible belt...which stops at Alexandria. South of that, the state is strongly democratic and contains Bourbon Street.

Ahtman wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Polls reflect that upwards of 70% of the population is conservative, not Republican.

Doesn't it depend on what the question is the poll is asking? The general rule of thumb for as long as I can remember is that Americans tend to be socially liberal but fiscally conservative.

A great deal. Generally, when given 3 choices (conservative, liberal, moderate) polls indicate that moderate and conservative as being roughly 40% each, with liberal at roughly 20%. If you get even more detailed (very conservative, conservative, liberal, very liberal, NA) you see a population that's about 10% very conservative, 30% conservative, 30% moderate, 15% liberal, 5% very liberal, and 10% NA.

Broken down by party: About 75% of the GOP is conservative, 20% moderate, and 5% liberal. The Dems are about 20% conservative, and 40% liberal or moderate. Independents are about 50% moderate, 30% conservative, and 20% liberal.

However, there has been a shift towards conservative identification in recent years, though not one that's outside the standard deviation for the last 30 years; except for those identifying as Republican. There's also been a corresponding shift towards liberal identification among Democrats, while Independents have stayed essentially the same save expanding as a category in the wake of Bush; likely due to disaffected former partisans.

I don't know where Frazzled is getting 70% from, though. Unless he's citing a forced choice study (ie. Are you conservative or liberal.), no reliable multiple response survey has put American conservative identification above 45% in the last 30 years.

Besides, "liberal" and "conservative" mean different things to different people anyway.

I mean in some Southern states (capital S, states that make Texas look civilized and liberal), a liberal view is merely "homosexuality is a sin and wrong" while the conservative view is "they deserve all the beatings they can get and more, it should be a crime".

While here in Texas the former is conservative (and probably the norm) and the latter is "wait what, did he really just say that?" I'm fairly certain the average Texan (at least for citygoers rather than rural folk) would be somewhat shocked at some of the more extreme conservative viewpoints to be sure.

Melissia wrote:Besides, "liberal" and "conservative" mean different things to different people anyway.

They do, but that's why statistical analysis is important. For example, I think its a fair bet that if you looked at all self-identifying conservative Democrats, a large number of them will be either black, or latino; and that their conservative identification is the result of opposition to things like gay marriage, and pro-choice law. Compare this to liberal Republicans who are probably much more likely to be pro-choice, or pro-gay marriage.

In other words, there aren't so many differences between different understandings of the terms that we can't account for them, at least for the most part.

Melissia wrote:

Crom wrote:If you don't practice said religion you don't know it.

Uh huh, and merely practicing means you know it?

I find that insinuation (even if not intended) to be eye-roll inducing, nevermind the utter falsity of the claim (one can study a religion they don't believe in). This applies to political beliefs too- one can understand the opposing party's views even if they don't believe them themselves.

Many just choose not to, and I admit to being guilty of that myself sometimes.

This is also a problem, communication between individuals on the Internet is often misunderstood or misinterpreted. I did not mean that in any condescending way at all. I can read about a programming language all day, but I won't fully understand it until I apply knowlege to an actual application. Religion is basically up for interpretation, and some religions are practiced in very diverse ways. Judaism is a prime example. In some cases Judaism is more of a philosophy than anything else, and a lot of Jews don't see things black and white from the Torrah, but say people are allowed to interpret it how they want. It is a personal thing on some level and not some monolithic thing you can give a straight answer to.

Knowledge, and applied knowledge are two different thing in my opinion. I work in IT, and I have taught myself 3 programming languages in the past couple of years form only reading books and doing tutorials online. I never actually understood any of those languages until I applied them to real life situations, and used my knowledge to code tools that actually worked in the real world.

I am also a person who follows a more humble outlook that I really don't know anything in my limited time on this planet and there is always more to learn and improve on. Take it for what you will, or just disagree with me that is your choice.




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Frazzled wrote:

Karon wrote:I think its hilarious how they say half of the population is Republican, when the Republican Party caters to the rich and the corporations, and not regular middle-class people who make up the majority of their party.

Just goes to show how little most people care about politics and just vote for whatever party is loudest.

Polls reflect that upwards of 70% of the population is conservative, not Republican. I'd expect that trend to conitnue as the population ages. After all, once you have stuff your view point tends to change when other people are trying to take said stuff.

EDIT: Who's the jerkoff that spoiled a political debate with the usual Dakka religion bad debate?

Yeah but who is polling the information? Polls can be slanted easily to show bias to one thing or another. I do actually like some conservative values, but the GOP fails to produce a conservative that actually practices those said values. On certain things I gotta put my foot down and draw a line as well. Anyone that thinks people should have less rights because of their sexual orientation is just beyond me, and it is 100% unconstitutional. I see no clause in the constitution that says you are guaranteed these rights unless you are _______ (fill in with a group of people).

Crom wrote:Polls can be slanted easily to show bias to one thing or another.

Have you stopped beating your wife?

Talking about loaded questions, not Crom...

Melissia wrote:Besides, "liberal" and "conservative" mean different things to different people anyway.

I mean in some Southern states (capital S, states that make Texas look civilized and liberal), a liberal view is merely "homosexuality is a sin and wrong" while the conservative view is "they deserve all the beatings they can get and more, it should be a crime".

While here in Texas the former is conservative (and probably the norm) and the latter is "wait what, did he really just say that?" I'm fairly certain the average Texan (at least for citygoers rather than rural folk) would be somewhat shocked at some of the more extreme conservative viewpoints to be sure.

Not only that but on a global scale liberal and conservative mean something entirely different than they do in the USA. In the USA all of our government officials would be categorized under authoritarian.


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Monster Rain wrote:

Crom wrote:Polls can be slanted easily to show bias to one thing or another.

Have you stopped beating your wife?

Talking about loaded questions, not Crom...

Well she just makes a really bad cup of coffee...





/not married, never been, not sure if I plan to

Crom wrote:I am also a person who follows a more humble outlook that I really don't know anything in my limited time on this planet and there is always more to learn and improve on.

... yes, but pardon me for this tautology: once you have learned something... you no longer know nothing. That is the definition of learning.

You might believe you know very little, but you know SOMETHING. Acknowledgement that you know something (even if it is not very much) is not the same as arrogance-- going too far with humility doesn't really benefit anyone. When someone asks if you know how to do something and you respond: "I know how to do this. I don't know if I am very good at it, but I'll do my best." is humble. "I don't know anything." is at best obscuring the truth, at worst outright lying.

Melissia wrote:

Crom wrote:I am also a person who follows a more humble outlook that I really don't know anything in my limited time on this planet and there is always more to learn and improve on.

... yes, but pardon me for this tautology: once you have learned something... you no longer know nothing. That is the definition of learning.

You might believe you know very little, but you know SOMETHING. Acknowledgement that you know something (even if it is not very much) is not the same as arrogance-- going too far with humility doesn't really benefit anyone. When someone asks if you know how to do something and you respond: "I know how to do this. I don't know if I am very good at it, but I'll do my best." is humble. "I don't know anything." is at best obscuring the truth, at worst outright lying.

Well we are back to splitting hairs....Of course there are always exceptions to rules, and always a case that does not fit into the norm. Just because you read a religious text doesn't mean you fully understand that religion. I am not saying you are ignorant of the subject, or even misinformed, but pointing out to claim someone is plainly wrong is sort of moot. Hell, Christians argue with other Christians on what the bible means, so who is right and who is wrong?

I have read and own a copy of the Qur'an but I am not about to say I even really understand Islam. I don't practice it. I know what it is conceptually, but I haven't practiced it. I don't go to mosques and I don't go to sermons or congregations of Muslims and discuss the belief system.

I was however raised Christian and forced to go church for years, so that I can say at least I practiced it while I learned and listed to plenty of sermons. I was also Buddhist for a few years to try it out and yes I went to the temple and learned it. Reading about it doesn't mean you can claim what is right and what is wrong.

Karon wrote:I think its hilarious how they say half of the population is Republican, when the Republican Party caters to the rich and the corporations, and not regular middle-class people who make up the majority of their party.

Just goes to show how little most people care about politics and just vote for whatever party is loudest.

Or maybe, just maybe the people who vote republican and are middle-class hope to be upper class one day and think that the republican party will help them achieve that. Just my two cents on voting habits.

Frazzled wrote:Polls reflect that upwards of 70% of the population is conservative, not Republican. I'd expect that trend to conitnue as the population ages.

Sure, but that typically has more to do with identity politics than anything reflecting actual policy beliefs. In a lot people's minds 'conservative' means 'not some uppity kid that's always crapping on about racism poverty and stuff'. Which is cool, and an admirable thing to want to be, but as a result we shouldn't assume that people identifying as conservative will necessarily support conservative policy.

Here's a graph showing what Americans think about income distribution, for instance;



Of course, then we've got the problem with how little the actual substance of policy actually affects voting...


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dogma wrote:I don't know where Frazzled is getting 70% from, though. Unless he's citing a forced choice study (ie. Are you conservative or liberal.), no reliable multiple response survey has put American conservative identification above 45% in the last 30 years.

I've seen a study showing the 70% figure. As you suggested, it removed the 'moderate' option, which I didn't have problem with, because when moderate is an option you'll see whole lot of people pick it as 'moderate' as an option as they feel the centre ground is the rational, pragmatic position, but when you actually look at their politics they're really nothing of the sort.

If I recall correctly it also depends on the preceding questions, and focused on identity over policy (the questions were 'how would you describe your family background' and stuff like that, not 'what do you think of income distribution in the US'). I think there was a breakdown of the thing somewhere on 538.