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So you are saying that the example is in direct connection to RPJ's other parts? If so please provide rules that allow you to exist in two different catagories of movement speed and how you can claim bonuses when you have no rule allowing you to be considered in both movement speed zones. It is one or the other. You seem to not be able to grasp that concept.

I am not saying it doesn't seem right I am saying you are ignoring core fundemental parts of the 40k rules. Also, you are not understanding how a rule would work. So please cite evidence that you can count as being in two different movment zones. As you are the one insisting that the rule reads this way you have the responsibility to prove that it reads the way you read it, not the other way around.

The rule specifically says that you ignore penalties. Correct?
Then the example says toy could move 13" but count as moving 12". This leaves us with two possibilities:
1. You count as moving 12" for all purposes, or
2. You count as moving 12" for the purposes of penalties.

Which of the two options goes hand in hand with the rules?

Additionally, if you are going to spout tenets, it would probably be a good idea to follow them as well, for example:

1. Don't make a statement without backing it up.
1a. Don't say that someone is wrong, instead you explain why you think their opinion is wrong. Criticize the opinion, not the person.

It has been asked numerous times for an actual RULE, not an example backing up the "you ignore bonuses as well" side, and none have been mentioned. Only "The example says 'count as' so it means 'count as' for all purposes"

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:So please cite evidence that you can count as being in two different movment zones..

We've already seen this elsewhere. Point and case - the monolith counts as stationary when firing its weapons, even if it moved.

Does that mean I get to hit it automatically if I assault it, if it moved?

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:So you are saying that the example is in direct connection to RPJ's other parts?

Connection? That word doesn't make sense in this sentence to me.
I'm saying the example absolutely agrees with the rest of the RPJ rule - as long as you read it with context in mind.

If so please provide rules that allow you to exist in two different catagories of movement speed and how you can claim bonuses when you have no rule allowing you to be considered in both movement speed zones. It is one or the other. You seem to not be able to grasp that concept.

Show me a rule limiting it to one or the other. That's your assumption. I've moved 13". That means I follow the rules for moving 13".
I have a rule saying (essentially) I count as moving 1" less for penalties.
There are no rules restricting speed bands or removing bonuses involved.

I am not saying it doesn't seem right

Really? I could swear...

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:You are the one insisting that you get both. I am merely stating that how you read it does not seem right to me and I have backed it up.

Oh, yeah, I did read that. Okay.

I am saying you are ignoring core fundemental parts of the 40k rules. [

Citation needed. What rule am I ignoring?

Also, you are not understanding how a rule would work. So please cite evidence that you can count as being in two different movment zones. As you are the one insisting that the rule reads this way you have the responsibility to prove that it reads the way you read it, not the other way around.

actually that's not true, but okay.
The Monolith counts as being stationary for the purposes of firing it's ordnance weapon, even if it moved.
Look! Two speed bands!
There is no rule restricting to only one speed band. There is no rule tying flat out to not firing. There is a rule saying moving more than 12" gains you a cover save. There is also a rule saying that some vehicles can ignore 1" of movement for the purposes of penalties. There is also a rule saying some vehicles can fire all weapons when moving 12".

Tie all those rules together, throw them in a blender, and you get dakkajets moving 13" and firing everything while being able to claim a flat out cover save.
That or one heck of a margarita.

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:So you are saying that the example is in direct connection to RPJ's other parts? If so please provide rules that allow you to exist in two different catagories of movement speed and how you can claim bonuses when you have no rule allowing you to be considered in both movement speed zones. It is one or the other. You seem to not be able to grasp that concept.

I am not saying it doesn't seem right I am saying you are ignoring core fundemental parts of the 40k rules. Also, you are not understanding how a rule would work. So please cite evidence that you can count as being in two different movment zones. As you are the one insisting that the rule reads this way you have the responsibility to prove that it reads the way you read it, not the other way around.

Sigh....

The RPJ rule answers all your queries, as has been shown if you'd read the whole thread. You're spouting the exact same nonsense argument (the examples context and link to the rules can be ignore) that others have, that has been repeatedly shown to be in error.

The RPJ rule itself says you ignore penalties. RPJ does not allow you to ignore bonuses. Being hit on a 6+ instead of a 4+ (moving 7") is not a penalty to the ORk player, therefore you have no permission to ignore that bonus.

Find a rule saying that you get to ignore bonuses as well as penalties, within the RPJ rule itself, and you would have an argument. Until you comply with this requirement of the forum you dont have an argument we can pursue

First of all, RPJ lets you ignore penalties and not bonuses. I will not argue that. Here's my problem with the arguement though: Aerial Assault says a vehicle with the Aerial Assault rule that moves at CRUSING SPEED may fire all weapons. Now, in order to gain the flat out cover save, you need to be moving FLAT OUT. As far as I can tell, there's no penalty to ignore because there's no penalty associated with the Aerial Assault rule. If you move CRUSING SPEED you may fire all weapons.

With the Dakkajet with RPJ, if you were to move 13 you could say "I'm moving FLAT OUT, but only count as moving 12"." I would say, "Ok, but since you're not moving CRUSING SPEED you can't use the Aerial Assault rule because you specifically have to be moving CRUSING SPEED.

The problem isn't the penalties of moving Flat Out, it's the lack of penalties to ignore in the Aerial Assault rule.

If you ignore the 1" for any penalties, then you are moving Cruising Speed as far as any penalties are concerned. Not being able to fire at all is a penalty, so for the purposes of determining how far you have moved you have moved 12" - which is Cruising Speed.

Aerial Assault then lets you fire all weapons, not just 1 main + all defensive.

RPJ doesn't change the speed you're moving, it just allows you to ignore penalties. If you move 13", and claim the Flat-Out save, you're moving Flat Out and ignoring whatever penalties associated such as firing no weapons(in which case you'd be able to fire 1 main + defensive weapons). The fact of the matter is that if you move Flat Out you can't use a rule that requires you to move Crusing speed specifically.

beigeknight wrote:RPJ doesn't change the speed you're moving, it just allows you to ignore penalties. If you move 13", and claim the Flat-Out save, you're moving Flat Out and ignoring whatever penalties associated such as firing no weapons(in which case you'd be able to fire 1 main + defensive weapons). The fact of the matter is that if you move Flat Out you can't use a rule that requires you to move Crusing speed specifically.

That's not true.
Flat Out is defined as moving more than 12".
Cruising speed is defined as moving 12".
You don't declare speed bands, you don't even declare how far you've moved. So for the purposes of penalties you've moved 12". Is that cruising speed?

beigeknight wrote:RPJ doesn't change the speed you're moving, it just allows you to ignore penalties. If you move 13", and claim the Flat-Out save, you're moving Flat Out and ignoring whatever penalties associated such as firing no weapons(in which case you'd be able to fire 1 main + defensive weapons). The fact of the matter is that if you move Flat Out you can't use a rule that requires you to move Crusing speed specifically.

You dont "claim" anything - you move 13" and so move flat out. For the purposes of any penalties you move 12" and therefore cruising speed

DIstance defines your speed band (note distance, NOT displacement!) not any declaratiion you make. Remember, despite asking this of Devian no such rule exists stating you must declare your speed band

Ok, you don't "claim" speeds or anything, that's not really what I was getting that. You move 13" and you're moving flat out, I totally get that. But if you move 13" you're moving Flat Out, you're not moving at Crusing Speed which is required for the Aerial Assault rule.

beigeknight wrote:Ok, you don't "claim" speeds or anything, that's not really what I was getting that. You move 13" and you're moving flat out, I totally get that. But if you move 13" you're moving Flat Out, you're not moving at Crusing Speed which is required for the Aerial Assault rule.

See, there's a penalty associated with moving 13". RPJ allows me to count as moving one inch less for penalties. So when looking at "Can I fire?" I moved 12" which lets me fire everything.

I don't know, I don't see that as a penalty of moving 13". It seems more like a bonus for moving 12". A penalty associated with moving 13"(on a fast vehicle) would be firing no weapons, which would be then allowing you to fire 1 main weapon plus all defensive weapons.

beigeknight wrote:I don't know, I don't see that as a penalty of moving 13". It seems more like a bonus for moving 12". A penalty associated with moving 13"(on a fast vehicle) would be firing no weapons, which would be then allowing you to fire 1 main weapon plus all defensive weapons.

Right, the penalty is not being able to fire. So I count as moving 12".
What speed is 12"?
What does Aeriel Assault do?

Yeah, 12" is Crusing Speed, which would allow you to fire all weapons. But you can't be Flat Out and Crusing, I'm pretty sure there's no rule allowing you to be in 2 moving catagories. I did read the whole thread but I don't recall anyone mentioning that.

A) I'm not in two categories.
B) monoliths would like a word with you.
C) it's been mentioned.
D) I have permission to be flat out (13"). I have permission to count as cruising for penalties (RPJ). the onus is on you to find something that denies permission.

You have permission to count as Crusing for penalties, yes. Aerial Assault isn't a penality and there's not any stated penalties associated with it. Flat Out has a penalty, which says a vehicle that moves Flat Out may not fire. Flat Out denies permission for something. Aerial Assault gives permission to do something. Therefore I can't see how RPJ would apply to Aerial Assault.

There is a penalty associated with moving 13". Therefore with RPJ I count as moving 12" when trying to shoot (since that's where the penalty is).
RPJ doesn't directly apply to Aeriel assault. It makes me count as going cruising speed, which is where AA kicks in.

Areial Assault is not a penalty, nor would it count as a penalty for moving 13" and getting flat-out, it just simply wouldn't apply to the vehicle. You're not ignoring a penalty, you're just not at cruising speed, so you don't get the bonus. Which is a good argument, and the better of the, "Why you shouldn't be able to do it" bits.

It comes off as a penalty because you don't get a bonus, but it's not a penalty, it's just part of a rule that only allows you to do something at a certain speed outside of speed rules, a.k.a. Aerial Assault.

The penalty prevents the vehicle from firing if it moved flat-out, and the penalty is ignored. Gaining bonuses from moving 13" are granted, but are we now not gaining bonuses from moving 12" is the question.

How can this be viewed?? A bonus from moving 12" is being hit on 4's, but at flat-out you're being hit on 6's, now you are using both speed brackets bonuses, but only applying the better of the two, obviously, and so you're saying you can choose between which bonuses you are granted?? No, I think you would be granted the bonuses of moving flat-out and not the penalties, thus having no choice even for the sake of humor, but to choose 6's. The only penalty that gets ignored coming to mind is the inability to fire any weapons, which then means you can fire 'as if moving at cruising speed' for purposes of ignoring penalties this seems the logical assumption, in which case you could use all weapons as per the "Aerial Assault Rule".
Now the Aerial Assault Rule is specific, and states you can fire all weapons if you moved at Cruising speed, which you clearly didn't, but since you are counting 'as if moving at cruising speed' for firing, which is not written anywhere and is only conjecture on us interpreters of the rule, you can still fire all weapons.

The argument that it never states it 'counts as moving cruising speed for the purpose of firing' is also legitimate whether agreed with or not, as it doesn't state it and the Aerial Assault rule is very specific...so...well...you get this thread.

This is probably a topic that could be the cause of a FAQ in the future. I'd gather just make sure each player agrees on how it's used before the game and so on and so on.

rigeld2 wrote:There is a penalty associated with moving 13". Therefore with RPJ I count as moving 12" when trying to shoot (since that's where the penalty is).
RPJ doesn't directly apply to Aeriel assault. It makes me count as going cruising speed, which is where AA kicks in.

Alright I guess I can buy that. I still feel that there's fuzzy areas in this logic. I can also see the applications of this and how quickly it'll be labeled "cheese" at worst and "beardy" at best.

Yes fear av 10 vehicles. please dont shoot them with str 5 stormbolters, please dont shoot them with bolters. since it is sitting on a flyer base, it gets no cover and is made out of paper mache. a 4+ cover save is junk when the volume of fire that can be put out by any list at any point value negates its usefulness. all you need is a glance and its worthless, cant even tank shock troops with it. if the ork player is lucky you will roll a 5 and on the dmg chart and only blow off a weapon. yeah, lucky.

so please tell me more how my Paper plane makes you fear it?

so yes a 5pt cover save while flying around seems fine to me.

A Dakkajet can move 13", gain a 4+ cover save and fire 12 times. That's kind of a big thing, especially since it seems geared to wreck transports. A 4+ cover save is "junk" in a hypothetical world where someone figures you can't roll a handfull of 4's, which isn't that hard.

Sure, I'll get one and enjoy these shenanigans. I think explaining this process will be a tough sell to anyone I play against though.

I would've been more excited to see a new unit that can take out AV 14 without being on top of it, but Dakkajet's alright I guess.

beigeknight wrote:A Dakkajet can move 13", gain a 4+ cover save and fire 12 times. That's kind of a big thing, especially since it seems geared to wreck transports. A 4+ cover save is "junk" in a hypothetical world where someone figures you can't roll a handfull of 4's, which isn't that hard.

Sure, I'll get one and enjoy these shenanigans. I think explaining this process will be a tough sell to anyone I play against though.

I would've been more excited to see a new unit that can take out AV 14 without being on top of it, but Dakkajet's alright I guess.

my way of playing is quite simple. yakface has done a great job with the INAT faq. I when meeting a new opponent make it known that I use the INAT for rules disputes and i've never had somebody disagree, the INAT agrees with rpj working how it is logically translated. movement speed is based on distance traveled, rpj makes you count as moving one less inch for advantages but not disadvantages so my jets will be going 13 shooting and getting a 4 plus cover save. I'm going to make sure this is how nay tournament i participate in rules it before hand and print out any emails bringing them with me. if somebody doesn't accept inat thats fine in a freindly game i'd still play it but in a tourney i wouldn't bother showing up and let the tournament organiser knwo they lost a potential participant who always buys a box or two from a store when at an event

beigeknight wrote:A Dakkajet can move 13", gain a 4+ cover save and fire 12 times.

9 times, friend. 9 times.

That's kind of a big thing, especially since it seems geared to wreck transports.

Str. 6 is not "geared to wreck transports".

A 4+ cover save is "junk" in a hypothetical world where someone figures you can't roll a handfull of 4's, which isn't that hard.

Sure, you do it about half the time. Then again you also fail that save half the time.

beigeknight wrote:A Dakkajet can move 13", gain a 4+ cover save and fire 12 times. That's kind of a big thing, especially since it seems geared to wreck transports. A 4+ cover save is "junk" in a hypothetical world where someone figures you can't roll a handfull of 4's, which isn't that hard.

Sure, I'll get one and enjoy these shenanigans. I think explaining this process will be a tough sell to anyone I play against though.

I would've been more excited to see a new unit that can take out AV 14 without being on top of it, but Dakkajet's alright I guess.

I really never had anyone doubt the rule after I showed it to them, both English and German variant.

Steelmage99 wrote:9 times, friend. 9 times.

Oh, I heard 12. I don't have the White Dwarf. I heard it gets 2 supa shootas and can add 2 more and it's Assault 3. I'm misinformed then

Steelmage99 wrote:Str. 6 is not "geared to wreck transports".

Well fine, but it's not bad at wrecking transports.

Steelmage99 wrote:Sure, you do it about half the time. Then again you also fail that save half the time.

Yeah, and? 50% is better than 33% so I wouldn't consider 50% junk. I've bounced a lot of shooting in a round off of a KFF'd Kan Wall, it's quite common unless I'm particularly lucky.

beigeknight wrote:

Steelmage99 wrote:9 times, friend. 9 times.

Oh, I heard 12. I don't have the White Dwarf. I heard it gets 2 supa shootas and can add 2 more and it's Assault 3. I'm misinformed then

It has two pairs of twin-linked supa-shootaz and can get another one, for a total of three pairs. So the model actually gains two guns, but they are one weapon system. Assault 3 is correct.

rigeld2 wrote:B) monoliths would like a word with you.

This has nothing to do with this rule because the Monolith rule clearly says it only counts as stationary when it shoots.

So just something I wanted to post about the original post...

The biggest point I would like to bring up in this disagreement is about flat out. In the BRB, it explicitly say "a FAST vehicle can go flat out." Just because you gain 1" of movement does NOT make you "fast". Therefore, you can not do a flat out since this applies to fast vehicles only. There is no rule that says, if you can go further than 12" you become fast.

All that the RPJ does is makes you move 13" and fire as if you are at cruising speed. That's it. No flat out rules can be applied, and you can still fire weapons under the cruising movement rules since you ignore penalties .

If you are wondering what the point is, well, you would probably only really want to do this to vehicles that are transports, flamers, or rammers. That 1" can make a difference between being in range for assault or not after a disembark.

tyjet3 wrote:So just something I wanted to post about the original post...

The biggest point I would like to bring up in this disagreement is about flat out. In the BRB, it explicitly say "a FAST vehicle can go flat out." Just because you gain 1" of movement does NOT make you "fast". Therefore, you can not do a flat out since this applies to fast vehicles only. There is no rule that says, if you can go further than 12" you become fast.

All that the RPJ does is makes you move 13" and fire as if you are at cruising speed. That's it. No flat out rules can be applied, and you can still fire weapons under the cruising movement rules since you ignore penalties .

If you are wondering what the point is, well, you would probably only really want to do this to vehicles that are transports, flamers, or rammers. That 1" can make a difference between being in range for assault or not after a disembark.

Except that the vehicles argued over within this discussion are already fast (the Trukk and Bomber). And thus already have the ability to go flat out.

We're not arguing if it grants the ability to go flat out (since as stated they already can), rather how the line between "cruising" and "flat out" blur as a result of RPJ when crossing that 12" speed barrier.