Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Red Comet wrote:

Radiation wrote:Blood Angels Codex page 23 bud. Read my post that you quoted. Its like a road map to get you there.

I get you now, but look at the rule for the Axe Mortalis. It says its a Power Weapon. It doesn't have extra rules besides that its Mastercrafted and a Power Weapon.

By your example then the Nemesis Hammer in the GK codex should be AP3 because it has its own rules even though it says it follows the rules for Thunder Hammers. The Axe Mortalis is a generic power weapon in its rules even though it has a separate entry. The definition for Unusual Power Weapons is that they have their own set of rules. Does the Axe Mortalis have its own set of rules? Nope, it simply says its a Mastercrafted Power Weapon.

Play it like you want. It seems pretty clear to me. Its almost like it is spelled out. I hope GW FAQ it for AP 2 for both the Axe Mortalis and the Glaives, but I won't hold my breath. Good luck. There is also a similiar entry in Space Marine Codex. So if you can use that to further your arguement then more power to you!

Radiation wrote:

Red Comet wrote:

Radiation wrote:Blood Angels Codex page 23 bud. Read my post that you quoted. Its like a road map to get you there.

I get you now, but look at the rule for the Axe Mortalis. It says its a Power Weapon. It doesn't have extra rules besides that its Mastercrafted and a Power Weapon.

By your example then the Nemesis Hammer in the GK codex should be AP3 because it has its own rules even though it says it follows the rules for Thunder Hammers. The Axe Mortalis is a generic power weapon in its rules even though it has a separate entry. The definition for Unusual Power Weapons is that they have their own set of rules. Does the Axe Mortalis have its own set of rules? Nope, it simply says its a Mastercrafted Power Weapon.

Play it like you want. It seems pretty clear to me. Its almost like it is spelled out. I hope GW FAQ it for AP 2 for both the Axe Mortalis and the Glaives, but I won't hold my breath. Good luck. There is also a similiar entry in Space Marine Codex. So if you can use that to further your arguement then more power to you!

They are Ap2. That's exactly what I am getting at. They aren't unusual. If you want further proof look at the FAQ for Lemartes's Weapon. It has its own unique entry, but its just a generic power maul. It doesn't have any extra bonuses besides USR of being master crafted.

If you want to see an example of a Unusual Power Weapon look at Astorath's weapon. That is definitely an AP3 Melee Weapon because it follows its own distinct rules in CC.

If an opponent wanted to play it that way I would totally be cool with it.

Eldercaveman wrote:Has anyone ran meph yet? How does he hold up in 6th?

I Tried him out in a 1500p army against GK's meph got bogged down in a 4-5 round challenge against Draiko, that 2+ armor save is insane now when neither has AP2 weapons. and due to me saving all armor saves Draiko could not insta kill meph and draiko being eternal i could not insta kill him either, so they where still locked in combat when the game ended.

my best advice would be to stay clear of such a challenge and go for 3+ armor save troops

Captain Tycho looks more appealing after some of this discussion.

He has 2+, 4++ and an attack at initiative that "ignores all armor saves." As Captain Tycho, he is still an IC.

He is just the kind of character in a unit that can take full advantage of the challenge rules or discourage your opponent from issuing.

What do you all think about him?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Radiation wrote:If an opponent wanted to play it that way I would totally be cool with it.

What Red Comet is trying to say is that the general consensus of the gaming community has determined that the rules read in such a way that you have gotten your wish: Dante has power axe with ap2 and everything else that goes along with it.

Most of us in this thread where searching for a way to have Dante attack at initiative.

Yep, Tycho for footslogging armies, captains for jump pack ones.

Stoffer wrote:Yep, Tycho for footslogging armies, captains for jump pack ones.

A captain is an excuse to buy another model. Or to convert.

I have never run one. Under the white dwarf codex, I ran Corbulo as my HQ at lower points levels and added Dante as a second HQ as the points increased. Under the current codex in 5th, I ran Mephiston, Librarians, and/or a reclusiarch as HQ.

Why a Captain over a Reclusiarch? You get the 4++ either way and Liturgies of Blood is worth the extra point imo.

cerebaton wrote:Why a Captain over a Reclusiarch? You get the 4++ either way and Liturgies of Blood is worth the extra point imo.

The idea for the jumper list would be to use the Captain as insulation for challenges. He has higher WS and better upgrade options while being 30 points cheaper. Not being able to switch his Crozius for a better hand to hand weapon sucks if you're doing challenges. That said, Fearless/Liturgies of blood is a wonderful combo.

Yea, the crozius only being ap4 is a bit of a liability in the conversation about challenges.

I love the reclusiarch, and have been running one in terminator armor in a particular terminator list.

However, you could get the Liturgies and Fearless from the chaplain for less points, and use your hq spot for the captain.

Cool - that makes sense. What would you arm him with in an anti-challenge capacity?

Honestly, if you attach a regular chaplain and he gets challenged, say no and leave him out of the fight. You'd be using him for fearless and liturgies anyway.

Exactly! There's always the option. Him not being in the fight isn't the worst thing in the world, and if you have him with DC and the enemy tries to pull that, even without the Chaplain's help the DC can mulch the enemy with relative ease.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mind you they still get his bonus.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So that's good

Titan Atlas wrote:Exactly! There's always the option. Him not being in the fight isn't the worst thing in the world, and if you have him with DC and the enemy tries to pull that, even without the Chaplain's help the DC can mulch the enemy with relative ease.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mind you they still get his bonus.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So that's good

I disagree, you're basically wasting a 100 points+ model while the opponent still gets to use his. Your Chaplain not getting his attacks while his does can decide the combat.

If you're not the one making the charge with a DC unit armed with a chaplain then you're absolutely wasting that unit. But losing the chaplain in a challenge, thus losing the rerolls to the DC (I mean, the Chaplain really only counts with his rerolls on the charge after all), screws the DC even more. Also, if you are charging a unit with any chance of fighting a model that is in range of attacking, with higher initiative and thus poses a viable threat to the entire unit, then you deserve to lose the battle.

I disagree Stoffer. You wouldn't be doing this in every fight. Just against things that the chaplain would not stand against by himself. Say a Daemon. I'd send the DC after him in a heart beat, they get to re-roll hits and wounds hitting 20 (5 man with bolters) - 50 (10 man with CCW) times. They have feels no pain, the chaplain doesn't.

Mordechai wrote:I disagree Stoffer. You wouldn't be doing this in every fight. Just against things that the chaplain would not stand against by himself. Say and Daemon. I'd send the DC after him in a heart beat, they get to re-roll hits and wounds hitting 20 (5 man with bolters) - 50 (10 man with CCW) times. They have feels no pain, the chaplain doesn't.

^this.

cerebaton wrote:Cool - that makes sense. What would you arm him with in an anti-challenge capacity?

I haven't thought about it too much, but how about a pair of LCs? It is at least a good place to start the discussion. One LC might be enough. To fit the profile we have described in the thread, you still need to add the jump pack.

Feldmarshal Goehring wrote:

cerebaton wrote:Cool - that makes sense. What would you arm him with in an anti-challenge capacity?

I haven't thought about it too much, but how about a pair of LCs? It is at least a good place to start the discussion. One LC might be enough. To fit the profile we have described in the thread, you still need to add the jump pack.

LCs are definately the "best" option but also probably the most pricey.

I tend to think that, if you have the W and invuln to be worth spending 40 points on, LC/PF is worth considering. The new specialist weapon rules and choice of melee weapon to employ in CC means you can use either ruleset and get +1a. Lets you kill 3+ at initiative or 2+ at I1.

I would not go for double LCs, way too many points for what you are getting out of it.
I'd go with LC/PF, LC/SS or LC/combi-weapon

About the Chaplain, I'd refuse the challenge every time and let the DC kill everything. He is a support model that improves his unit, going around hitting people is just a bonus.

My problem with Captains is they have a relatively small influence over your armies. A Librarian can affect multiple units with Psychic powers, a Reclusiarch or a Chaplain improves his own squad. The Captain is just a beatstick and as far as the world of beatstick goes he is rather mediocre.

Jackster wrote: The Captain is just a beatstick and as far as the world of beatstick goes he is rather mediocre.

There is some wisdom in that statement. If we take him, we are choosing to move away from the other HQ choices in order to gear him up for challenges. However, he is still only I 5. Lots of things are going to go before him. I like the sound of the LC/SS idea. But at that point we begin moving into points range for buying Terminator armor, at which point he can't move with the jump infantry. If we are going to spend that many points on him, I wonder if jumping to one of the special characters doesn't become a more attractive choice: Dante, Astorath, Meph, or Sanguinor (I know the last two can't join units. So, you alter your strategy a bit).

If I had the Sanguinor and say, a nearby unit of DC...hoo boy. I mean, I doubt I'll use him, but that'd be brutal. Charge a deathstar (provided you get close enough), if there's a powerful HQ at the head, challenge him with the Sanguinor (no guarantee he'd win, but he won't likely die in a 1v1 unless you made a particularly poor choice in challenges), and use the Sanguinor's buffs on the DC as they charge mercilessly.

Feldmarshal Goehring wrote:

Jackster wrote: The Captain is just a beatstick and as far as the world of beatstick goes he is rather mediocre.

There is some wisdom in that statement. If we take him, we are choosing to move away from the other HQ choices in order to gear him up for challenges. However, he is still only I 5. Lots of things are going to go before him. I like the sound of the LC/SS idea. But at that point we begin moving into points range for buying Terminator armor, at which point he can't move with the jump infantry. If we are going to spend that many points on him, I wonder if jumping to one of the special characters doesn't become a more attractive choice: Dante, Astorath, Meph, or Sanguinor (I know the last two can't join units. So, you alter your strategy a bit).

Uuuuh I disagree. For a beatstick, he's the best thing the codex offers at the 100-140/150 point range and with furious charge nerfed, I5 is super good. I don't really agree that a lot of things are going before him, certainly not things in his point range unless they come from codexes that are specifically geared to strike first.

If you're doing jump infantry, he's about the best beatstick you'll get. If you're doing walking/terminator, you might want to look elsewhere.

Also, those special characters you mention are arguably better, but that's because they're twice as expensive, which makes the comparison slightly flawed.

I'm currently planning building myself a captain, as a quick question, can you field a captain with dual thunder hammers?

I'm not entirely sure. They're not great in 6th though :(

I'm not really too fussed how great they are, i just think it would look cool, but it would be useful if it was actually legal, it does say replace your boltgun, bolt pistol and/or chainsword with: then thunderhammer is listed, but its a case of can you have two, two-handed weapons?

Stoffer wrote:I don't really agree that a lot of things are going before him, certainly not things in his point range unless they come from codexes that are specifically geared to strike first.

I am not trying to 'win the argument' or anything of that nature. Your points are valid, and the Captain deserves to be play tested against the gauntlet of armies in 6th.
Nevertheless, our opponents will not stop to see if their beatsticks are in the same points range as our captain when they issue a challenge. Perhaps it would just be the Dark Eldar/Eldar that go before I 5. I will have to get out the codexes and do some research to see just how many high initiative threats there really are lurking out there.

The more I look through the codex with 6th ed. rules in mind, the more Tycho and Gabriel Seth look like decent buys. (for purposes of fightin in CC and accepting challenges). Both have invuln saves, Tycho 2+,4+, Seth 3+ 4+. Tycho negates armor saves, Seth is str 6th rending. Both are init 5, which is decent with their saves. With Dante now and Axe bearer and Astorath ( I am not sure what his weapon counts as), their inititive suffers. They are also more expensive.

Also have to figure that you will probably have a sang priest running with the squad that you put either of those guys with.

What I was thinking:

5 van guard vets total, 3 with power swords and SS, and 2 with PF and SS. Add Tycho, Sang Priest and or a librarian, seems like it might do nice if you can get it where it needs to be.

Or

You could similarly add them to a mech DC unit.

The only reason I could see using Dante now would be for his Precise strike, attach him to a 10 man assault squad with 2 melta guns, inferno pistol on the srg. With Dante that would be 4 melta shots on a high profile target such as a landraider. But thats still pretty suicidy and probably much more expensive that Sternguard in a drop pod. At that point the only reason to include that would be for redundancy or the abililty to nuke another target.

Yeah, I think Tycho wins it for me, Seth not having a power weapon is pretty poor for a character of that cost.