Imbrian Arts Kickstarter - Latest Update: Death Knight sculpted, working on casting

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**RiTides**

Regarding the summoning circle, that was actually mentioned while the campaign was running that a sixth side was needed. I have no idea what that means, but just pointing out- that's the same state it was in over a year ago. Obviously, sculpting should be the priority- my point was working on that rather than Beer and D6s would've been much more applicable.

The latest update is fantastic, though! Post one of those every month and you will find the perception of your campaign will drastically change (for the better

).

**Alpharius**

A game will certainly help drive sales though!

These miniatures are absolutely amazing looking - and I'm getting a bunch via the KS, and a bunch more when they hit your store.

But I'd buy a whole lot more if I had a specific system/game to use them with!

**Azazelx**

sprue wrote:

I agree that when you have a game, showing previews for miniatures can create a lot of buzz. Look what happens when GW pics and rules get leaked. There's endless discussion about composition and how the new figs/rules will affect play. Since I don't have rules yet for people to get excited about, I don't know if that's going to happen here.

Mierce doesn't have a game either - yet. They may have only just put out a Beta set, but they've been selling and previewing figures for a year or so now. Their proper rulebook isn't due for several more months. Tre' doesn't have a game at all. How about Reaper?

Basically, quality models sell based on their own strengths.

**Alpharius**

And nice miniatures with a ruleset sell even better?

And for all intents and purposes, Mierce's Darklands rules are pretty much out there now, and certainly have been playable for some time as well.

**RiTides**

I think the prospect of having a game to use miniatures in certainly helps (it's one of the main drawbacks to Tre's efforts, actually, since his range only works with itself or smaller ones... which is why his next campaign will be miniatures that have their own ruleset!). It was the main thing that tempted me to go in big here.

So, I'm just pointing out that hearing that the game is at the same point as it was during the campaign is a disappointment. I.e., no progress at all because a sixth side needs to be added to the summoning circle... which is really hard to believe that that could keep any progress from being made on it behind the scenes (and what prompted that discussion is that a different game Was being made behind the scenes!).

But again, the latest update was a huge improvement! If that continues, I think folks will be satisfied in the end... but there can't be another 3.5 month span with zero updates and very little sculpting progress, is all. Continue in this new vein and the project and eventual game will have a lot more momentum when the campaign is finished, rather than crawling to the finish line and generating no further interest / sales afterwards from satisfied backers and good press.

**Buzzsaw**

Alpharius wrote:
And nice miniatures with a ruleset sell even better?

And for all intents and purposes, Mierce's Darklands rules are pretty much out there now, and certainly have been playable for some time as well.

Do they though? I don't mean that as a challenge, I honestly don't have any idea what the numbers are. Certainly GW is the big banana in the bunch, which weights any evaluations, but a necessary problem for any conclusion is that miniatures without games will generally not receive much interest on Dakka. All that said, it is difficult to imagine a coherent line, much less several lines of miniatures being put out without at least a unifying background (see TGG, for example).

The real question to me isn't if a rule set will help models sell better, let's stipulate that it at least can do so. The question I think most important is if moving away from core competence is worth it.

Consider, for example, Studio McVey and Sedition Wars: McVey clearly has a mastery of model making, supervising artists and so on. What they didn't have was a background in game design or theory. My understanding is that this has led to all game design (including the continuing revisions to the existing game) to be contracted out to another firm, yes?

Now, that's a board game that wouldn't exist without rules. But the universe already existed, the background in which the action takes place (several characters are new versions of people that existed in the limited line, I believe). What if McVey had, as AngryNoze did, simply launched the lines of Samaritan and Plague (?) figures with the promise of a game later, but focused like a laser on the miniatures?

No one can know, except that this post got really tangential really quick...

**Azazelx**

Alpharius wrote:
And nice miniatures with a ruleset sell even better?

And for all intents and purposes, Mierce's Darklands rules are pretty much out there now, and certainly have been playable for some time as well.

Of course. Well, sometimes. But my point is that previews aren't a bad thing, and that many people won't care about yet another niche fantasy skirmish ruleset, but would about the figures...

**Alpharius**

Absolutely - I can't imagine a case in which previews are a bad thing.

I know GW has an absolutely pants on head stupid philosophy about that, but no one else does!

**Azazelx**

RiTides wrote:
but there can't be another 3.5 month span with zero updates and very little sculpting progress, is all. Continue in this new vein and the project and eventual game will have a lot more momentum when the campaign is finished, rather than crawling to the finish line and generating no further interest / sales afterwards from satisfied backers and good press.

Let's be real here. The eventual game isn't going to do much, and will be forgotten pretty quickly, just like Tre's game, RH's game, Anvil's game and so forth - and probably MIerce's and Dreamforge's games as well - though you might get some nice art books out of those. There's only so many rulesets this industry can support in any meaningful way, and so while free PDFs will help a few people to play it (mostly the big fans of the producers), the games these models are mostly going to be used for probably still exist, and they're called 40k/D&D/WHFB/Pathfinder/etc. The way to go to help your rulesets be used is to make it a self-contained product like a boardgame - which even Mantic is figuring out.

With Warlord and FoW and SAGA and the Western games making a chunk of historicals more "mainstream", it leaves even less shelf space (and more competition) for the endless new tiny niche skirmish systems in both FLGS and etailers' inventories.

**RiTides**

Well, substitute "game" with "miniatures line" if you like, but the gist is the same- people like a well-supported line with background and world-building to go with it, and a game helps that part. Either way, it was something he laid out before starting the project... so whenever it does happen I have some beta rules coming I guess

**Alpharius**

RiTides wrote:
Well, substitute "game" with "miniatures line" if you like, but the gist is the same- people like a well-supported line with background and world-building to go with it, and a game helps that part. Either way, it was something he laid out before starting the project... so whenever it does happen I have some beta rules coming I guess

Yes, pretty much!

I know I'm looking forward to it.

I'm still waiting, and looking for, the next Confrontation after all!

**sprue**

Azazelx wrote:

Let's be real here. The eventual game isn't going to do much, and will be forgotten pretty quickly, just like Tre's game, RH's game, Anvil's game and so forth - and probably MIerce's and Dreamforge's games as well - though you might get some nice art books out of those. There's only so many rulesets this industry can support in any meaningful way, and so while free PDFs will help a few people to play it (mostly the big fans of the producers), the games these models are mostly going to be used for probably still exist, and they're called 40k/D&D/WHFB/Pathfinder/etc. The way to go to help your rulesets be used is to make it a self-contained product like a boardgame - which even Mantic is figuring out.

With Warlord and FoW and SAGA and the Western games making a chunk of historicals more "mainstream", it leaves even less shelf space (and more competition) for the endless new tiny niche skirmish systems in both FLGS and etailers' inventories.

I agree with this a lot. There's a huge amount of competition out there all competing for your time and money. Personally, I feel that the best way to capture the most support is with a full and complete set of rules, and yes, background, art, and fluff too. Some gaming related updates would certainly be helpful to those concerned with the gaming side of the project, but people definitely want their miniatures. If I release stuff piecemeal then Azazelx will almost certainly be right. The rules would probably just slide out under the radar while people are focused on the next big thing.

I look at really awesome projects like the KD game and see there's definitely something to learn from that. Adam had been hinting at a game for years. There was always that little corner on the front page with a handful of models facing off against each other and a blurb about a game in the works but that was it as far as I know. When he did release that game though, there was enough background, interest, beautiful art and models to support it that it did amazingly well in the Kick Starter.

That's definitely the right way to do things in my opinion. I'm looking at what I have available now to work with, a couple of factions, some 'ok' art work, and still a relatively small customer base and think, releasing a game, or a beta, which is still lacking so much in the face of a lot of systems that have a LOT more to work with is going to fall flat on its face. I need a completed summoning circle, stat cards, rules with preferably painted minis doing battle, and enough variety to keep the replay value high.
Alkemy was a game I enjoyed for about two weeks and then felt sad when I couldn't change up my lists or try new things.

But RiTides is right. People ARE curious, and I'll look for ways to tease you.

Right now while I'm working on this ifrit, I'm also trying to upgrade the packaging of the miniatures so that it has a clean, and professional appearance. As someone who wants to be "green" it irks me that there's so much effort put into packaging and a pretty appearance that get's thrown into the garbage, and only the miniature survives, but I need to compete on that level too. I'll show some pictures as soon as it gets in.

Absolutely - I can't imagine a case in which previews are a bad thing.

I know GW has an absolutely pants on head stupid philosophy about that, but no one else does!

True! wips are awesome. You just need to have the right timing. Show them off too soon, and people move on to whatever that thing is that has rules for the game you like

I'd like to be able to show off wips, casts and then the product within a week of each other. That way you see it, get excited, and know that very soon, it will be ready to ship.

**OrlandotheTechnicoloured**

While a game may or may not stick a well thought out background for an artist/company to work in is never wasted

You can always go back to it with a different type of game (army/skirmish/duel/RPG) if the first doesn't work

and if people like your world they'll make up their own rules (or use some of the many pre-made sets)

Selling a knight as a knight will only get you that sale

Selling Sir Impressive one of three brothers in the service of King Old Bloke and his beautiful but wayward Queen will help convince folk that maybe they might need a few of the rest of the minis too (although the background will need to be better than my 30 second attempt_

**sprue**

Agreed

**BobtheInquisitor**

Clearly the Wayward Queen is seducing Sir Impressive, whispering in his ear about his rightful place on the Rocky Throne of the Nightingale Kingdom. But before he can claim his destiny he must convert Sir Conflicted through his son, Impressive's Squire Gothos. Their third brother, Sir Stalwart the Simple (actually a master tactician), will need to be eliminated...

**sprue**

Would you gentlemen prefer I post news about Beer and D6s here or in its own thread?

**Alpharius**

Here is fine, but as it is something 'new', you could certainly post in "News & Rumors" too, as that would certainly get you additional/increased exposure!

**RiTides**

I think it could use it's own thread, personally... I can't imagine the reaction if you were to update the actual KS with news of it, rather than Imbrian

**Joyboozer**

I would prefer not to read about your other project until you have completed this one. It's poor form.

**Alpharius**

Yes and no - I mean, I'd love for this one to be 100% before hearing about some other project but, that just isn't reality anymore, usually, when it come to KS, and at least this new game will have miniatures that are useable in the eventual game here too...

**RiTides**

The concepts / aesthetics aren't close, though, so I can't imagine the miniatures / games being a very good match.

I don't mind ideas for his next thing, but posting about it in his current, very delayed kickstarter may be a bit much!

Also, it's one thing for a company waiting on production to put the design team to work on other things... but in this case he is still sculpting, and casting himself, to fulfill this project.

**Alpharius**

I think the miniatures will 'match up' just fine.

I don't think it is a big deal - others might.

Either way, let the chips fall where they may!

**sprue**

No worries, I just didn't want to clutter up the forums with multiple threads about the same company.

The ifrit is coming along really nicely and will be mostly done by the end of the week. All that will be left is a lot of chain to sculpt, but It's far enough along that I'll be able to show off some good WIPS.

I think you got a little mixed up Alpharius. You can use Imbrian models in Beer and D6s, but RiTides was right, the BD6 models might be a bit too silly for the other game.

**Joyboozer**

Was the Ifrit comment in reference to the end of last week or this week?

**Alpharius**

Right now?

Update #51

Mar 15 2014
Summoning Ifrits and casting spells.
3 comments
5 likes

A quick update on our progress this week. The ifrit is coming along nicely and I've started adding chain to it, it's almost there! Last week I was hoping to have it nearly complete by the end of this week but I managed to catch a cold and have spend the last four days as a snot walrus. But here are some WIP pics of some amazing flames that jump out of every crack in the ifrit's armor. He's a big monster as well. His body alone is around 50-54mm tall, not including the flames, which is why he's taken so long to finish. There's just a ton of detail and edges to cover and clean.

And while I've been sick for most of the week, I've been putting in some good hours on the gaming aspect of this project. When inspiration comes, it comes in floods! I have several pages worth of sketches that are being reworked, cleaned, and inked for the summoning circle. Just to reiterate, the circle contains six panels, each depicting a sign representing an aspect of fate, like a tarot card. Each warrior is also linked to a sign, similar in essence to astrology. Their personalities and traits are tied to a sign and the disposition of the bones when cast, will show you their fate. Here's a close up on the detail of the death sign.

And lastly, I have some incredibly talented friends that have contributed to the project. Jeremy Hush is an amazing artist and an incredible guy. We did some art swapping, and he created a beautiful new Certificate of Authenticity for our limited edition resins. It has some gorgeous detail.

"Within the Mare Imbrium lies the source of all the magic that remains to us. And the Imbrian Art is how we channel the energy of the god who dwells there, so that under its moon throne we can scry the fate of all men touched by the Light of Shadows."

Glad I went in for the Ifrit!

**RiTides**

That is a fantastic update! Awesome to see that he took the feedback and pretty much ran with it

hope it continues!

**Joyboozer**

What's the difference between these pics of the Ifrit and the pics of the Ifrit from update 48? They look the same.

**Joyboozer**

Was no we don't want to hear about your new game the wrong answer?

**Alpharius**

Apparently...

From the comments section on March 27th:

Creator Jody Siegel on Mar 27

Ok! Hmmm
Resin casting is going very well. I'm getting ready to prep the ifrit for moulding. I like to stare at it for a couple of days to make sure I'm finished with it. Sometimes after you wait a day and look at it again you notice something you missed.
--
Last week I made some new blister packaging art for the miniatures so that they now have a nice professional look instead of little plastic bags, and can be sold by retailers.
I ordered a few hundred and they promptly got lost in the mail... The package was insured so I just have to go through the frustrating effort of reordering them.
--
Fancy new boxes for the ifrit arrived today.
--
I ordered 100 new certificates of authenticity for the ifrit and lich, professionally printed on super fine 32pt card. It's incredibly luxurious paper. Super smooth and has very vibrant colors and a deep red core. Each card costs about $2 and looks AMAZING
--
Ordered a bunch of foam for the ifrit boxes. It's the kind with the little pluck n pull squares. Each box is 2" deep and will be packed wall to wall with foam so it's perfect for storage and transporting a showcase mini.
--
Made a 40mm resin scenic base for the ifrit.
--
This:

http://instagram.com/p/l8Gk8XIsTF/

and six days ago:

Creator Jody Siegel 6 days ago

HA I beat you to it! I was responding whilst you were commenting.
@Ryan I can do something like that. I was pondering whether or not it might be easier to go the 3D modelling route with that one.
I will be doing a series of blogs about the dragon, the first entry should be coming in a few days. I'll be workin' through the weekend to get some stuff done and then I can set aside some free time to work and blog.

**Alpharius**

Go figure - an update!

Update #52

Apr 11 2014
The Biggest WIP
8 comments
7 likes

Hi all, while I'm waiting around for the first ifrit resin to cure, I figured I'd upload some pictures of my most recent Work in progress. I had received a few queries about the dragon, how it was going, how big it would be etc. and many of you requested WIP photos and step by steps so I thought the dragon would be a great project to blog about because it's a big model and a big project and a lot of different techniques would be involved in creating it. I'm calling it "The Biggest WIP".

It's not the how to of how to's by any means, but it highlights the thought process going into each stage of the project. Read on!

When I first considered creating a dragon I wanted to do something different and try to reimagine the typical dragon. There are a wide range of dragons already available, all lizardy with great bat wings and spikey heads, but really they're variations on the same thing, just in different poses and with a wide variety of skill levels being employed. I'm not trying to knock the winged komodo crocs, there's some really excellent ones out there! But when I mess around with clay, I like to think about what I could do differently, and what I like about dragons, and what I don't like!

Inspiration is important! My first dragon sketches all revolved around the idea of a sea dragon resembling a great serpent with the spines and wings of a lion fish. I love the colouring and shapes of lion fish but we can't really see their scales and the smoothish fish skin might not translate well on a model. So i had to consider how to tackle flesh and form to make it visually appealing from afar and close up.

Often times, real life can be the best source of inspiration and when I'm working I'll collect all sorts of pictures of interesting animals and spread them out over my desk top so I can refer to them as I work. So after considering the various animals and sea creatures that might blend well with a dragon with these sorts of wings, I was really inspired by sea horses and turtles! Wait, turtles? YES! They're reptiles and their skin has scales on it but it's a much softer looking sort of scales, and a great sea dragon might have something very similar to that if it spends so much of it's time living under water. Perhaps it relies more on its size and thick muscle and hide to absorb blows rather than deflect them with hard scales... There's also some beautiful patterns created by all of the loose skin they have, creating lots of folds and intricacies.

When I see other sculptors (both traditional and miniature) incorporate folds of skin into their work it always impresses me and it's something that I'm not seeing enough of in a lot of dragon miniatures. This extra detail really helps create a more convincingly realistic sculpture! There are some really cool dragons here in Philadelphia that demonstrate how amazing a dragon can look without the use of big scaly pieces and focusing on muscle form, shapes. See how the skin moves?

So I'm going to try and incorporate all of this into my work here. In this piece I'm doing a few things differently from the get go so I'm learning some things as I go. With sculptures of this size we're not using the normal method of attaching clay to the armature with green stuff. Instead we're using the traditional method, which is using aluminium wire for the armature and wrapping a smaller copper wire around it for the clay to grip. This will keep it from sliding around. Green stuff does the same thing on smaller pieces. If you're interested in a tutorial on armatures check this out http://www.instructables.com/id/CREATING-A-FIGURE-ARMATURE-FOR-SCULPTURE/

Now that we have an armature that's ready for clay the first step was to bulk out the shape of the dragon. For this project I wanted to try a new material and I'd heard that premo, which is a sculpey product was much stronger and more break resistant than normal sculpey. So far my thoughts on it are that it is not a great material for large work! Normally I mix equal parts sculpey firm into my clay to give them some strength but I went straight premo this time and I find that when it comes to trying to make large shapes in clay it's not as good as the firm mix I was using. It will probably perform better when it comes to details however. Making the bulk of the sculpture can be a tricky step, almost as tricky as the armature, and very important. The dragon needs to look natural from all sides and not unbalanced. There also needs to be enough clay to really emphasise the shapes of the body, and it doesn't hurt to exaggerate those shapes and then take a step back to look at what you've done overall. This is how it was looking on the first day after laying out the shapes.

Now that there's clay on the armature we can see that the right leg is somewhat oddly turned in toward the body. Aluminium armatures are very easy to manipulate and modify while you're sculpting so the positioning of the legs can easily be adjusted, but for the time being we're going to focus on the torso and neck area and get the tail size and muscles sorted out. Then we can go back and revisit legs.

After the shapes are all set I went about starting to form muscle groups. This process will take a little bit of time because all the shapes of these muscles are dependent upon each other and to get the right look you have to create a little bit of one section, then start to create the muscles around it which connect to it and then go back to the original muscle group and make adjustments. I started in the chest area because on most animals these muscle groups are very similar. I also exaggerated the hump on the dragon's back even further and shortened the neck a little and made it a bit bulkier. Because we are working with "fantasy anatomy" I added an extra set of pectoral muscles behind the main ones. You need pectorals to move your arms back and forth. Every vertebrate with arms has them so why we don't see them in european style dragons I have no idea! Another extra is a second set of ribs underneath the first, since this creature has a very long and muscular torso and it helps us make sense of the hump on the dragon's back.

You can see the muscles really taking shape. Remember that at this stage smoothness and detail are not important. We're just creating the topography upon which we'll add the skin, scales, and other details so you'll be seeing a sea of rippling muscle underneath scales and leathery skin!

On a large miniature with very defined muscles I'm taking extra care to give the illusion that the creature is anatomically complete, and trying to show not just the muscles on the surface but the layers of muscles underneath them and the connecting muscles between bones that are creating vague shadows. You can see this starting to become more visible on the neck.

Once the muscles are looking roughly the way they're supposed to, I can start adding some of the surface shapes. These are not details yet, but rather changes to the shape of the body that lay on the top of the muscle like the folds of skin caused by the contortion of the limbs and torso and the "seahorse ridges" that give the body structure but are nevertheless superficial, since they lay on top of the muscle and underneath the skin and don't really anchor to the bones except on the spine and rib cage.

That's all for now! Here are a few more shots from different angles. Next time we'll work on the other side of the figure where we'll be working on a lot of folds and squashed muscles. In a few days I'll be back with pics of the resin ifrit casts and our new packaging!

P.S. Here's a quick pic of a 40mm resin base I made for the Ifrit.