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SGTPozy wrote:
If a Riptide can survive it I'm sure a Dreadknight can too, as can TWC.

Dk's with sanctuary up statistically die to one volley, actually. Not even counting the secondary weapon shots or shots from any attached character.

 Quickjager wrote:
Pozy you are already ignoring the fact the Riptide has an additional wound, possibly FNP, and at least 40 inches between the two units. Whereas the DK is ten inches away and 4 wounds to begin with.

It's only one wound, if the Riptide is left standing with one wound then it isn't going to be of much use for the rest of the game.

At least 40 inches? Umm, not with Draigo and his GoI shenanigans.
Riptides cannot hide anywhere near as far away as you people claim.

SGTPozy wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Pozy you are already ignoring the fact the Riptide has an additional wound, possibly FNP, and at least 40 inches between the two units. Whereas the DK is ten inches away and 4 wounds to begin with.

It's only one wound, if the Riptide is left standing with one wound then it isn't going to be of much use for the rest of the game.

At least 40 inches? Umm, not with Draigo and his GoI shenanigans.
Riptides cannot hide anywhere near as far away as you people claim.

This ^^ I don't get how people are ALWAYS out of range of the Riptide, based on what some people are saying it sounds like they are on insanely huge tables.

Now you are deliberately comparing something else Pozy. Besides we already know one wound still lets a MC operate at full effectiveness, that is why they are so powerful compared to squads.

niv-mizzet wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:
If a Riptide can survive it I'm sure a Dreadknight can too, as can TWC.

Dk's with sanctuary up statistically die to one volley, actually. Not even counting the secondary weapon shots or shots from any attached character.

All the Riptide has is an additional wound and a 2/3 chance of +1 to the inv over the Dreadknight, otherwise having -1 and -1 wound.

I don't see how this makes that much of a difference and even ifit does, the Ripide will be down to its last wound so it'll die next turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Quickjager wrote:
Now you are deliberately comparing something else Pozy. Besides we already know one wound still lets a MC operate at full effectiveness, that is why they are so powerful compared to squads.[/quote

Shoot at it once more and it'll die.

 gmaleron wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Pozy you are already ignoring the fact the Riptide has an additional wound, possibly FNP, and at least 40 inches between the two units. Whereas the DK is ten inches away and 4 wounds to begin with.

It's only one wound, if the Riptide is left standing with one wound then it isn't going to be of much use for the rest of the game.

At least 40 inches? Umm, not with Draigo and his GoI shenanigans.
Riptides cannot hide anywhere near as far away as you people claim.

This ^^ I don't get how people are ALWAYS out of range of the Riptide, based on what some people are saying it sounds like they are on insanely huge tables.

They only need to be more than 24" away to eliminate most marine firepower that matters. Arguably, I'd say ALL firepower, because Ritpides don't care about lascannons, plasma cannons or autocannons.

On the comment of Grav bikes and the comment suggesting they don't generically come with a company master. This is true, but they're often with an HQ option as its mandatory to unlock them.

I think this thread is clearly highlighting one fact. 40k is at its core a broken mess.
We're all standing around pointing, well it's not as OP as that OPness.
I would like to say a lot of Tau players aren't defending the IA tide. We just don't want the riptide in general to become utterly useless.

As for the riptide always having ignores cover, that's plain weird. You're making a huge assumption that the Tau player is actually going to pay the points for units that will die to a stiff wind.
Don't get me wrong they have their uses and most Tau players will have some, but realistically there will be like 2-3 units with them (in numbers that matter).
To get enough lights for the things I'm seeing in this thread you'd need to spend 200-300 points.

Martel732 wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Pozy you are already ignoring the fact the Riptide has an additional wound, possibly FNP, and at least 40 inches between the two units. Whereas the DK is ten inches away and 4 wounds to begin with.

It's only one wound, if the Riptide is left standing with one wound then it isn't going to be of much use for the rest of the game.

At least 40 inches? Umm, not with Draigo and his GoI shenanigans.
Riptides cannot hide anywhere near as far away as you people claim.

This ^^ I don't get how people are ALWAYS out of range of the Riptide, based on what some people are saying it sounds like they are on insanely huge tables.

They only need to be more than 24" away to eliminate most marine firepower that matters. Arguably, I'd say ALL firepower, because Ritpides don't care about lascannons, plasma cannons or autocannons.

In what universe do they not care about any of those weapons? How do you think my Guard tanks routinely take down Riptides I face?

I don't think that Riptides always ignore cover. But let's say I'm getting cover at 5+++. That's still going to mean my SG or DC are just going to get eviscerated. The ignore cover is really only super juicy with improved ruins or aegis lines. Blasting through all armor and all T4 FNP is quite enough.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 gmaleron wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Pozy you are already ignoring the fact the Riptide has an additional wound, possibly FNP, and at least 40 inches between the two units. Whereas the DK is ten inches away and 4 wounds to begin with.

It's only one wound, if the Riptide is left standing with one wound then it isn't going to be of much use for the rest of the game.

At least 40 inches? Umm, not with Draigo and his GoI shenanigans.
Riptides cannot hide anywhere near as far away as you people claim.

This ^^ I don't get how people are ALWAYS out of range of the Riptide, based on what some people are saying it sounds like they are on insanely huge tables.

They only need to be more than 24" away to eliminate most marine firepower that matters. Arguably, I'd say ALL firepower, because Ritpides don't care about lascannons, plasma cannons or autocannons.

In what universe do they not care about any of those weapons? How do you think my Guard tanks routinely take down Riptides I face?

I said MARINE firepower. Marines can't take enough of those weapons to ever down a Riptide. Yes, I'm aware the Guard can put out enough shots to make the Ritpide pay attention. The Guard also loses less points per pie plate. It's almost like power armor troops are a liability instead of a boon... hmmm. The Riptide is far less efficient vs the IG I'd say.

SGTPozy wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Pozy you are already ignoring the fact the Riptide has an additional wound, possibly FNP, and at least 40 inches between the two units. Whereas the DK is ten inches away and 4 wounds to begin with.

It's only one wound, if the Riptide is left standing with one wound then it isn't going to be of much use for the rest of the game.

At least 40 inches? Umm, not with Draigo and his GoI shenanigans.
Riptides cannot hide anywhere near as far away as you people claim.

Statisically it's just as likely to end up with 2 wounds as opposed to one...this is assuming that every grav has hit and wounded.
In reality. its 15 shots - 10 hits - 9 wounds - resulting in 2 wounds dealt. rockets or bolters statistically shouldn't wound once.

Really makes you wonder why tau aren't winning more games in tournaments. Wait! They win more than any other army other than Imperial knights...I'm sure riptides are a big part of this.

IK are just as guilty in many ways, but at least are vulnerable to melta and/or high STR weapons from multiple angles. Yes, this is a pain, but the Riptide is even more durable/pt than a Knight.

SGTPozy wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Pozy you are already ignoring the fact the Riptide has an additional wound, possibly FNP, and at least 40 inches between the two units. Whereas the DK is ten inches away and 4 wounds to begin with.

It's only one wound, if the Riptide is left standing with one wound then it isn't going to be of much use for the rest of the game.

At least 40 inches? Umm, not with Draigo and his GoI shenanigans.
Riptides cannot hide anywhere near as far away as you people claim.

When Draigo gates nearby you get to shoot that lovely IA at his clumped up squad of Centurions. Plus you were shooting at them previously.

And even when they do unload, you are most likely going to survive.



Lets look at a Dreadknight and a Riptide vs some Grav guns. How many shots it takes to statistically kill each of them.

We'll assume both have the maximum invuln save, they have roughly the same chance of being successful. The Riptide also has FnP, because its a nobrainer upgrade.


Dreadknight: Has a 4+ invuln and 4 wounds. That means we need to get an average of 8 wounds to get past its 4+. 8/(5/6)=9.6 hits required. 9.6/(2/3)=14.4 shots to statistically kill a Dreadknight. Round up to 15.


Riptide: 3+ invuln, 5 wounds, and FnP. 5/(2/3)=7.5 unsaved wounds to get past FnP. 7.5/(1/3)=22.5 wounds to get past 3+ invuln. 22.5/(5/6)=27 hits to get past 2+ to wound. 27/(2/3)=40.5 shots to statistically kill a Riptide. Round up to 41.


It takes 2.73 times as many shots to kill a Riptide with Gravguns as it takes to kill a Dreadknight. That extra wound, pip of invuln, and FnP makes a huge difference.

This also is completely disregarding the distance issue. The Dreadknight is moving right into the teeth of the Gravguns. The Riptide at least has the safety of 30-36" of table space at a minimum, only negated if you bring Draigo(but thats not guaranteed either. You won't always get Gate off, nor will your scatter be favorable, and you'll still get Interceptor shots to the face before you get to shoot)

Martel732 wrote:
Marines can't take enough of those weapons to ever down a Riptide.

Six Black Knights, according to my math (if the Riptide doesn't have the reactor shield up or any shield drones, so slightly points-inefficient and not entirely realistic).

Pardon me, but I'm not familiar with a Black Knight.

 gmaleron wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Pozy you are already ignoring the fact the Riptide has an additional wound, possibly FNP, and at least 40 inches between the two units. Whereas the DK is ten inches away and 4 wounds to begin with.

It's only one wound, if the Riptide is left standing with one wound then it isn't going to be of much use for the rest of the game.

At least 40 inches? Umm, not with Draigo and his GoI shenanigans.
Riptides cannot hide anywhere near as far away as you people claim.

This ^^ I don't get how people are ALWAYS out of range of the Riptide, based on what some people are saying it sounds like they are on insanely huge tables.

They only need to be more than 24" away to eliminate most marine firepower that matters. Arguably, I'd say ALL firepower, because Ritpides don't care about lascannons, plasma cannons or autocannons.

In what universe do they not care about any of those weapons? How do you think my Guard tanks routinely take down Riptides I face?

Quit simply...you don't kill them with guard tanks unless it's pask in a punisher. who costs quite a bit more than a riptide and they don't have 3+ invo up and are dumb enough to be within 24 inches anyways! please tell me how you kill riptides with IG. Does he walk into your plasma guns for no real reason?

 Xenomancers wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Pozy you are already ignoring the fact the Riptide has an additional wound, possibly FNP, and at least 40 inches between the two units. Whereas the DK is ten inches away and 4 wounds to begin with.

It's only one wound, if the Riptide is left standing with one wound then it isn't going to be of much use for the rest of the game.

At least 40 inches? Umm, not with Draigo and his GoI shenanigans.
Riptides cannot hide anywhere near as far away as you people claim.

Statisically it's just as likely to end up with 2 wounds as opposed to one...this is assuming that every grav has hit and wounded.
In reality. its 15 shots - 10 hits - 9 wounds - resulting in 2 wounds dealt. rockets or bolters statistically shouldn't wound once.

Really makes you wonder why tau aren't winning more games in tournaments. Wait! They win more than any other army other than Imperial knights...I'm sure riptides are a big part of this.

Actually, according to torrent of fire, they are 9th.
http://www.torrentoffire.com/6767/graphing-lvo

 Xenomancers wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Pozy you are already ignoring the fact the Riptide has an additional wound, possibly FNP, and at least 40 inches between the two units. Whereas the DK is ten inches away and 4 wounds to begin with.

It's only one wound, if the Riptide is left standing with one wound then it isn't going to be of much use for the rest of the game.

At least 40 inches? Umm, not with Draigo and his GoI shenanigans.
Riptides cannot hide anywhere near as far away as you people claim.

This ^^ I don't get how people are ALWAYS out of range of the Riptide, based on what some people are saying it sounds like they are on insanely huge tables.

They only need to be more than 24" away to eliminate most marine firepower that matters. Arguably, I'd say ALL firepower, because Ritpides don't care about lascannons, plasma cannons or autocannons.

In what universe do they not care about any of those weapons? How do you think my Guard tanks routinely take down Riptides I face?

Quit simply...you don't kill them with guard tanks unless it's pask in a punisher. who costs quite a bit more than a riptide and they don't have 3+ invo up and are dumb enough to be within 24 inches anyways! please tell me how you kill riptides with IG. Does he walk into your plasma guns for no real reason?

I can believe IG bring enough raw shots to get it done. Their shooting is much, much more efficient than marines.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Marines can't take enough of those weapons to ever down a Riptide.

Six Black Knights, according to my math (if the Riptide doesn't have the reactor shield up or any shield drones, so slightly points-inefficient and not entirely realistic).

Riptide should have cover at least right?

I really think that people shouldn't focus on how powerful certain things are right now. 40k need more than a year to update itself, and as soon as they finish a year cycle, they need to start another one. Yes riptide are good, but they were OP like a year ago. Now most of the army update are on par with that easily (except Ork, which I think still stinks, even tho I main them and really enjoy fielding them). Some army need they shared of big ugly strong thing, and thats normal. That was decided when Ed7 came out and decide to include LoW, SuperHeavy and a gakload of formation. Don't worry too much, your turn will come.

To go back on the OP, who was asking if Tau could be fun to play against, I would say yea, easily. I'm building a mix army with FW in Devilfish, Crisis suit team jumping around, deep striking stealthsuit, piranha/tetra for fast attack and a couple of broadside as Heavy support. Really on par with a Space Marine player fielding Tac in rhino, Bike squad, Assault marine, suicidal melta pod and vindi/pred supporting fire. I think it's a fair list and if someone is not having fun playing against that, I wonder what type of game they actually like.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Marines can't take enough of those weapons to ever down a Riptide.

Six Black Knights, according to my math (if the Riptide doesn't have the reactor shield up or any shield drones, so slightly points-inefficient and not entirely realistic).

Riptide should have cover at least right?

It's pretty hard for MCs to get cover now, right?

 Xenomancers wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Marines can't take enough of those weapons to ever down a Riptide.

Six Black Knights, according to my math (if the Riptide doesn't have the reactor shield up or any shield drones, so slightly points-inefficient and not entirely realistic).

Riptide should have cover at least right?

Mathed based on the 5+ Inv, if it has a 4+ cover it might be seven Black Knights.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Marines can't take enough of those weapons to ever down a Riptide.

Six Black Knights, according to my math (if the Riptide doesn't have the reactor shield up or any shield drones, so slightly points-inefficient and not entirely realistic).

Riptide should have cover at least right?

It's pretty hard for MCs to get cover now, right?

Not the way 7e area terrain works.

We don't usually (ever) play with area terrain. Everything is true LOS and MCs need percentage of physical coverage to get cover. So you're telling me that in your play group, Riptides actually get cover sometimes? I can't imagine what that's like.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Pozy you are already ignoring the fact the Riptide has an additional wound, possibly FNP, and at least 40 inches between the two units. Whereas the DK is ten inches away and 4 wounds to begin with.

It's only one wound, if the Riptide is left standing with one wound then it isn't going to be of much use for the rest of the game.

At least 40 inches? Umm, not with Draigo and his GoI shenanigans.
Riptides cannot hide anywhere near as far away as you people claim.

Statisically it's just as likely to end up with 2 wounds as opposed to one...this is assuming that every grav has hit and wounded.
In reality. its 15 shots - 10 hits - 9 wounds - resulting in 2 wounds dealt. rockets or bolters statistically shouldn't wound once.

Really makes you wonder why tau aren't winning more games in tournaments. Wait! They win more than any other army other than Imperial knights...I'm sure riptides are a big part of this.

Actually, according to torrent of fire, they are 9th.
http://www.torrentoffire.com/6767/graphing-lvo

A quick glance at the right shows you they are the 3rd most winning army. only .5% behind eldar...winning over 55% of games...

Martel732 wrote:
We don't usually (ever) play with area terrain. Everything is true LOS and MCs need percentage of physical coverage to get cover.

I think 25% is still pretty easy to achieve. Especially if you've got proper terrain on the boards.

If my Knight can get cover a Riptide can.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Pozy you are already ignoring the fact the Riptide has an additional wound, possibly FNP, and at least 40 inches between the two units. Whereas the DK is ten inches away and 4 wounds to begin with.

It's only one wound, if the Riptide is left standing with one wound then it isn't going to be of much use for the rest of the game.

At least 40 inches? Umm, not with Draigo and his GoI shenanigans.
Riptides cannot hide anywhere near as far away as you people claim.

Statisically it's just as likely to end up with 2 wounds as opposed to one...this is assuming that every grav has hit and wounded.
In reality. its 15 shots - 10 hits - 9 wounds - resulting in 2 wounds dealt. rockets or bolters statistically shouldn't wound once.

Really makes you wonder why tau aren't winning more games in tournaments. Wait! They win more than any other army other than Imperial knights...I'm sure riptides are a big part of this.

Actually, according to torrent of fire, they are 9th.
http://www.torrentoffire.com/6767/graphing-lvo

A quick glance at the right shows you they are the 3rd most winning army. only .5% behind eldar...winning over 55% of games...

That's the popularity graph, the win% graph is further down.

 Grey Templar wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
We don't usually (ever) play with area terrain. Everything is true LOS and MCs need percentage of physical coverage to get cover.

I think 25% is still pretty easy to achieve. Especially if you've got proper terrain on the boards.

It's too tall to get 25%.. pretty much ever.

Like I said, with proper terrain it definitely can.

We regularly play with terrain that's 6+ inches tall and many times as wide.

Looking at the graph, does anyone want to pimp BA drop pods some more? Also, I can't believe the guard is so bad in a shooting edition. And the GK are so good.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Like I said, with proper terrain it definitely can.

We regularly play with terrain that's 6+ inches tall and many times as wide.

I might be able to hide some DC behind that. Which means they don't get shot for a turn by Riptides. Verboten.

pm713 wrote:
It might be that they see Tau and think that its just going to be a game of rolling dice and removing models no matter what they do. Then because they started with this attitude they stay that way throughout the game regardless of what actually happens.

Just my thoughts.

Yups! If you can break your opponents spirit before the game starts, you have most likely won the game.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Pozy you are already ignoring the fact the Riptide has an additional wound, possibly FNP, and at least 40 inches between the two units. Whereas the DK is ten inches away and 4 wounds to begin with.

It's only one wound, if the Riptide is left standing with one wound then it isn't going to be of much use for the rest of the game.

At least 40 inches? Umm, not with Draigo and his GoI shenanigans.
Riptides cannot hide anywhere near as far away as you people claim.

Statisically it's just as likely to end up with 2 wounds as opposed to one...this is assuming that every grav has hit and wounded.
In reality. its 15 shots - 10 hits - 9 wounds - resulting in 2 wounds dealt. rockets or bolters statistically shouldn't wound once.

Really makes you wonder why tau aren't winning more games in tournaments. Wait! They win more than any other army other than Imperial knights...I'm sure riptides are a big part of this.

Actually, according to torrent of fire, they are 9th.
http://www.torrentoffire.com/6767/graphing-lvo

A quick glance at the right shows you they are the 3rd most winning army. only .5% behind eldar...winning over 55% of games...

That's the popularity graph, the win% graph is further down.

that graph is inconsistent with the 55% win rate it shows you on the top right side column. That shows IK, Eldar, follow by tau....maybe that is including tau taken as allies? In any case - it's pretty misleading to have that be on the front page if it's not actually true.