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2015/07/16 21:07:44
Subject: Re:Looks like Greece may be out of the Eurozone
Talizvar wrote: Also note an estimated ~85% of taxes are not paid / evaded by their citizens.
Yup. That right there is the problem with Greece and why it's economy can't recover. The Greeks have enjoyed the benefits of a modern welfare state for years, but haven't actually been paying the taxes to support it.
They owe what, 320 billion? While 10 billion is not a small number, it isn't the only factor in this whole mess.
Sure, they need to pay their taxes if they are going to have a ton of people on the dole. I think we can all agree that tax evasion needs to be cracked down upon. But it's more complicated than "Pay your taxes".
Well, if everyone paid their taxes that would only be 32 years to pay off the principle. Of course it would take longer than that due to interest and all that stuff, but it would be a significant step towards paying it off.
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Grey Templar wrote: Well, if everyone paid their taxes that would only be 32 years to pay off the principle. Of course it would take longer than that due to interest and all that stuff, but it would be a significant step towards paying it off.
It appears what gives Germany some vindication in taking a hard line with Greece is if all debt was forgiven, they have not got their spending to match income so would find themselves in debt again.
This is why the IMF "reforms" are so important: there is little reason to support Greece in any way if they cannot stay within any budget, it makes all these efforts utterly pointless.
Problem is they are fighting decades of habit that it is culturally supported to not pay the government because "they do not deserve it".
Wow, came back up here after much digging.
Very specific laws, changes in spending and collecting were given multiple times and oddly make much sense.
Best fault I can figure is the financial reporting was HORRIBLE or horribly trying to hide things.
There also appeared to be no sense of urgency to implementation of fixes to their systems as far back as 2008 and the downturn made it very much too-little-too-late.
OK I have a new respect for the European Commission after finding a bunch of their reports, they are not as easy to investigate as the IMF but they do similar work: good detail and information and again "plain language" thank goodness.
Interesting article in Sept 2009, rather accurate guesses on the options of the weaker members of the EU, focus was on Spain here before Greece was revealed to be hiding it's debt:
http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB125288334119806859 Called it on the nose for the "nuclear option" and explains well how many recession fighting tools are lost with the euro.
If I were Italy (next on the block I figure) I would make a well planned exit of the euro: their number will come up soon and might as well be on their terms.
Plus do it while everyone is distracted with Greece.
List for Greece undergoing this procedure and their various reports here: This is a clear record of every step of the way of Greece being shown where they are and what they need to do... lead a horse to water but cannot make him drink.
This list here is one of the better findings I have made in this thread: great reports with good detail and plain language (a bit coma inducing but works).
http://ec.europa.eu/economy_finance/economic_governance/sgp/deficit/countries/greece_en.htm
Of particular interest is the report in November 2009 where they uncover the doubled debt and point that the "real" problem is not reduced GDP but spending of the government:
Spoiler:
"The progress with improving the collection and processing of statistical data and in
particular general government data, as requested by the Council has been insufficient.
The latest revision of the October 2009 notification has not been validated by Eurostat
due to the significant uncertainties over the figures notified by the Greek authorities.
The procedures in place to ensure a prompt and correct supply of general government
data required by the existing legal framework are manifestly insufficient.
...
However, although the deterioration
in macroeconomic conditions has been more pronounced than anticipated by the
authorities, public finances have worsened much beyond what could have been
expected as a result of the stronger-than-projected downturn and to a large extent
as a result of budgetary policies implemented by the Greek government. Notably,
on the expenditure side, the 2009 budget execution points to sizeable expenditure
overruns in 2009 of which more than half is attributed to higher-than-budgeted
outlays for compensation of employees and increased capital spending;
...
on 25 June 2009 the Greek authorities announced additional deficit-reducing
discretionary measures, with an estimated budgetary impact of some 1¼%
percentage points of GDP. However, the majority of the measures have not been
implemented by the Greek authorities so far and almost one percentage point of
GDP were temporary in nature (one-offs), targeting additional revenue, hence not
in line with the Council recommendations to strengthen fiscal adjustment in 2009
through permanent measures, mainly on the expenditure side;
...
the large projected increase in the debt-to-GDP ratio exceeds the impact of the
deterioration in the general government's net borrowing position, indicating
insufficient efforts to control factors other than net borrowing, which contribute to
the change in debt levels.
...
This leads to the conclusion that significant revenue shortfalls and expenditure
overruns have led to a strong deterioration in Greece's budgetary position in 2009,
which can only partly be attributed to the deterioration of the macroeconomic
conditions and, hence, are mainly due to an insufficient response by the Greek
authorities to the Council recommendation according to Article 104(7) of the Treaty of
27 April 2009.
...
Greece has not taken effective action in response to the Council Recommendation of 27 April
2009 within the period laid down in that Recommendation."
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/07/17 14:01:09
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2015/07/18 07:50:18
Subject: Re:Looks like Greece may be out of the Eurozone
Greece debt crisis: Reforms 'going to fail' - Varoufakis The former Greek finance minster has said his country's economic reforms are "going to fail", just as formal talks on a huge bailout are set to begin.
In a BBC interview, Yanis Varoufakis said Greece was subject to a programme that will "go down in history as the greatest disaster of macroeconomic management ever".
The German parliament approved the opening of negotiations on Friday.
The bailout could total €86bn (£60bn) in exchange for austerity measures.
n a damning assessment, Mr Varoufakis said: "This programme is going to fail whoever undertakes its implementation."
Asked how long that would take, he replied: "It has failed already."
Mr Varoufakis resigned earlier this month, in what was widely seen as a conciliatory gesture towards the eurozone finance ministers he had frequently clashed with.
He said Greek Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras, who has admitted that he does not believe in the bailout, had little option but to sign.
"We were given a choice between being executed and capitulating. And he decided that capitulation was the ultimate strategy."
Mr Tsipras has announced a cabinet reshuffle, sacking several ministers who voted against the reforms in parliament this week.
Energy minister Panagiotis Lafazanis, one of the hardline rebels, was among those replaced.
But Mr Tsipras opted not to bring in technocrats or opposition politicians as replacements.
As a result, says the BBC's Mark Lobel in Athens, Mr Tsipras will preside over ministers who, like himself, harbour serious doubts about the reform programme.
Greece must pass further reforms on Wednesday next week to secure the bailout.
Germany was the last of the eurozone countries needing parliamentary approval to begin the talks, with Greece voting to accept hard-hitting austerity measures earlier in the week.
But the head of the Eurogroup of finance ministers, Jeroen Dijsselbloem has warned that the process will not be easy, saying he expected the negotiations to take four weeks.
Some Greek banks could reopen on Monday following weeks of closures, after the European Central Bank (ECB) raised the level of emergency funding available.
Separately, the European Council approved the €7bn bridging loan for Greece from an EU-wide emergency fund. The loan was approved in principle by eurozone ministers on Thursday and now has the go-ahead from all non-euro states.
It means Greece will now be able to repay debts to two of its creditors, the ECB and International Monetary Fund (IMF), due on Monday.
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2015/07/20 06:50:28
Subject: Looks like Greece may be out of the Eurozone
PhantomViper wrote: And you continue to fail to grasp the simple fact that in open market economies with a large trade deficit Keynesian economics simply don't work because the liquidity that is supposed to prop the GDP is instead used to buy foreign goods.
Of course there's leakage to outside economies. You think stuff that basic isn't considered in Keynesian models? It isn't only considered, it's been studied endlessly, to the point where we have a very strong level of knowledge about how much is lost, and the truth is it ain't that huge.
The actual technical debate on Keynesian economics is to do with 'crowding out', how much a the multiplier of a government deficit is minimised because it draws funds away from investment (and the short answer there is somewhere between 'a bit' and 'quite a bit'). But that factor doesn't exist when investment has collapsed, ie 2008.
Keynesian economics are in a very large part responsible for the final collapse of both Greece and Portugal. In both countries, the government answer to the 2008 crisis was to increase public spending even further in the following years (both countries reached deficits of close to 10% and the Portuguese debt grew from 60% to close to 100% of the GDP in less than 3 years), without having any significant GDP impact (both countries were in pretty big recessions during those years).
That's like blaming soup kitchens for causing the great depression.
That you continue to advocate that the answer to this problem are the very same measures that caused it in the first place is getting pretty surreal at this point.
This is quite surreal, yeah. It's like the last 7 years never even happened, and the complete collapse of austerity is just imagined away.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Talizvar wrote: Best I can tell is between the harsher austerity and the rebellion that ensued and the first time credit rating falling below A is what started to kick the GDP down, then hiding their debt really killed it:
26 February 2010: Goldman Sachs faces Fed inquiry over Greek crisis
Investment bank is accused of helping to cause the crisis by using derivatives contracts to disguise how much Greece was borrowing.
Add in the GDP decline that had to come from the European recession, no Greek currency to offset productivity shortfalls, and you've pretty much got an economy on life support. From there more government saving is only going to contract the economy faster than it pays down debt, and you've basically got an implosion.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
kronk wrote: Sure, they need to pay their taxes if they are going to have a ton of people on the dole. I think we can all agree that tax evasion needs to be cracked down upon. But it's more complicated than "Pay your taxes".
Yeah, Greek tax evasion is certainly a factor, but it's not the only factor and far from the biggest. If every Greek citizen dutifully paid every cent, this would have happened anyway.
That doesn't mean Greece shouldn't have tax reform or that it won't help, but looking just at that is an easy way to blame Greek morality, and ignore hard questions about the structure of the Eurozone that show this could happen to any of the countries of Europe.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Talizvar wrote: It appears what gives Germany some vindication in taking a hard line with Greece is if all debt was forgiven, they have not got their spending to match income so would find themselves in debt again.
Not really. The important thing to remember is there are two ways of understanding a deficit. There's the simple, revenue minus expenses, which says Greece tipped back in to deficit last year. But there's also the long term method, what's called the 'structural deficit'. This method factors in the business cycle, it calculates what the deficit would be if the economy were operating at full employment - by that measure Greece is operating one of the strongest budget surpluses in history. Not just Greek history - in the history of any country.
The problem is that Greece right now happens to be plunging back in to recession, which is flatlining revenue and driving up welfare payments.
Which is why it's been so frustrating to see almost no attention given to Greek economic recovery - if policies focused on restoring Greece to full employment then you'd see strong surplus budgets.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/07/20 07:17:19
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
2015/07/20 15:58:57
Subject: Looks like Greece may be out of the Eurozone
Of course there's leakage to outside economies. You think stuff that basic isn't considered in Keynesian models? It isn't only considered, it's been studied endlessly, to the point where we have a very strong level of knowledge about how much is lost, and the truth is it ain't that huge.
How much is "that huge"? Is a 10% leakage considered huge? 20%?
How much of its citizens money should a country throw away, especially in a country with a 43% trade deficit and the huge tax evasion rate and corruption that Greece has?
sebster wrote: But that factor doesn't exist when investment has collapsed, ie 2008.
Except that public investment didn't collapse in 2008, it actually increased to try and fight the economic effects of the 2008 crisis, and that is what caused the very high deficits in 2009 and 2010 (and again, with no apparent result), that precipitated the call for international assistance in both countries.
This is quite surreal, yeah. It's like the last 7 years never even happened, and the complete collapse of austerity is just imagined away.
Both Ireland and Portugal have successfully completed their "austerity" packages and have also successfully exited the Troika's aid plans, so what "complete collapse of austerity" are you even talking about?
2015/07/20 18:25:43
Subject: Re:Looks like Greece may be out of the Eurozone
Didnt see this posted yet: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33587330 "Greek debt crisis: Germany 'may consider' debt relief"
Key points are: no haircut, possible extended maturities and reduced interest rates on the condition of economic reform.
For what its worth a lot of people from the Northern Eurozone are quite tired of Greek rethoric and haircuts will never happen as long as Greece continues to act this way, because it would not generate enough political support.
Sorry for my spelling. I'm not a native speaker and a dyslexic.
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2015/07/21 00:54:13
Subject: Looks like Greece may be out of the Eurozone
PhantomViper wrote: How much is "that huge"? Is a 10% leakage considered huge? 20%?
Greece hovers around 20%. If we put savings at around 20% and remove investment crowding out, then you’ve got a multiplier of around 2.5 times for every dollar spent, net of tax receipts. That’s extremely good value as a means to temporarily maintain GDP.
Except that public investment didn't collapse in 2008
Public investment? Why did you just add ‘public’ to what I said. It wasn’t what I typed, and made no sense at all in the context of what I was saying – why would anyone talk about government deficits crowding out government investment. What the hell would that even mean?
Look, if you actually don’t understand what crowding out is just ask and I’m happy to explain it. But don’t bluster along trying to argue when you don’t understand the economic concepts in play.
it actually increased to try and fight the economic effects of the 2008 crisis, and that is what caused the very high deficits in 2009 and 2010 (and again, with no apparent result), that precipitated the call for international assistance in both countries.
And this is a bit like saying applying the brakes did nothing because the car still crashed. The point is the severity.
Both Ireland and Portugal have successfully completed their "austerity" packages and have also successfully exited the Troika's aid plans, so what "complete collapse of austerity" are you even talking about?
If you think austerity applied merely to the PIGS then you’re hopelessly mistaken. And if you think ‘successful’ is defined merely in terms of still having an economy 8 years later then you really have thought this through at all.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/07/21 02:10:00
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
2015/07/23 07:29:18
Subject: Re:Looks like Greece may be out of the Eurozone
loki old fart wrote: The former Greek finance minster has said his country's economic reforms are "going to fail", just as formal talks on a huge bailout are set to begin.
As much as I do not like this guy, I concur.
These measures are pointless, even people like me (no economic expert whatsoever) see this is beyond ridiculous.
Taxes for enterprises (and I own two!) are set at 29%(!) with 100% deposit for the next year (meaning 29%+29%=58%!!!)
That means that if I declare e.g. 20,000 euros in earnings (after depositing VAT) it will be like
Means I'm left with 4,400 for a year's work! Yeah... which moron thought this out?!
A simple comparison
Cyprus has 12,5%
Bulgaria 10%
United Kingdom 10% (under relief)or else 18%
Romania 16%
France 15%
Turkey(!) 0% for the first 5 years....
OK. Someone please tell me how the f*ck is this new bail-out supposed to "help me" and make the economy stand back on it's feet... :-(
Because I'm still considered a healthy enterprise and rising, but all this certainly does absolutely nothing to help me out and me and my collaborators are at the top of our limit as far as working hours is concerned. Maybe we should stop eating? Yeah, how come they didn't include that in the bail-out terms...? :-/
FWIW taxes before this came along where already ridiculously high anyway, with 26% and a 55% yearly deposit for next year.
In the previous example from the 20,000 euros declaration earnings/year this took away from me 4600+2530+1000=8130 euros in taxes, which left me with 11,870euros for a year's work. Already a steal AFAIC. Just saying how much "better" this new bail-out seems to be... :-(
The Greek governments give the impression of being incompetent. If they only tax people who are honest enough to declare their incomes, everyone will have to become a tax dodger.
OK. Someone please tell me how the f*ck is this new bail-out supposed to "help me" and make the economy stand back on it's feet... :-(
It's not really to be unfortunately, brutally honest.
Ultimately, it's the price to be paid for Greek government incompetence and what amounts to larceny amongst the wealthy, the willingness of the other Eurozone nations to look away when they admitted Greece in the first place to further their own ambitions, and the risks inherent in a shared currency area. It could just as easily have happened to Italy, Spain, etc, Greece's dice just came up shortest in the great gamble. Greece also appeared to get screwed by some of the other nations which shared her situation, in that if Greece had gotten a deal that would really have been good, the electorate of other nations forced to undertake austerity measures would have crucified their governments, and as such, it doesn't appear they did much to help Greece.
The only upside is the avoidance of the possible unknown dangers of leaving the Euro and the Greek government defaulting and the repercussions of that sort of disaster.
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2015/07/23 11:09:26
Subject: Looks like Greece may be out of the Eurozone
I don't think it's true that not much has been done to help Greece. There was a forgiveness of 50% of the debt, and the EU refinanced a lot of the rest of it on very easy terms.
loki old fart wrote: The former Greek finance minster has said his country's economic reforms are "going to fail", just as formal talks on a huge bailout are set to begin.
As much as I do not like this guy, I concur.
These measures are pointless, even people like me (no economic expert whatsoever) see this is beyond ridiculous.
Taxes for enterprises (and I own two!) are set at 29%(!) with 100% deposit for the next year (meaning 29%+29%=58%!!!)
That means that if I declare e.g. 20,000 euros in earnings (after depositing VAT) it will be like
Means I'm left with 4,400 for a year's work! Yeah... which moron thought this out?!
A simple comparison
Cyprus has 12,5%
Bulgaria 10%
United Kingdom 10% (under relief)or else 18%
Romania 16%
France 15%
Turkey(!) 0% for the first 5 years....
OK. Someone please tell me how the f*ck is this new bail-out supposed to "help me" and make the economy stand back on it's feet... :-(
Because I'm still considered a healthy enterprise and rising, but all this certainly does absolutely nothing to help me out and me and my collaborators are at the top of our limit as far as working hours is concerned. Maybe we should stop eating? Yeah, how come they didn't include that in the bail-out terms...? :-/
FWIW taxes before this came along where already ridiculously high anyway, with 26% and a 55% yearly deposit for next year.
In the previous example from the 20,000 euros declaration earnings/year this took away from me 4600+2530+1000=8130 euros in taxes, which left me with 11,870euros for a year's work. Already a steal AFAIC. Just saying how much "better" this new bail-out seems to be... :-(
Thats just insane, 75% taxes on a regular joe just trying ot exist....
your current Baillout package is insane, it should never have been given in the first place to begin with,
Greece has no future in the Eurozone, Long as they do not expect UK to pay for it too, its a Euro problem and we have our own cuts and problems to solve before we can even begin to think about helping to fix another economy.
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2015/07/23 15:40:32
Subject: Re:Looks like Greece may be out of the Eurozone
jhe90 wrote: Thats just insane, 75% taxes on a regular joe just trying ot exist....
It's sad, but seeing as Greek taxation is grossly inefficient there's a lot of people and companies that pay 0% instead and have been doing so since forever. Shipping companies, for example, have been exempt from taxes because they're important or something. Making a deal with the tax collector has also been very possible in the past - pay him a few hundred in cash so he forgets what the state wanted from you. Property tax has been entirely dependent on what you say the property is worth, and if the tax collector by chance disagreed he could be bribed - that's if he even knew you owned it in the first place, seeing as property records are also inefficient.
If your neighbor isn't paying (and isn't punished) why should you pay?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/23 15:41:19
2015/07/23 15:47:08
Subject: Re:Looks like Greece may be out of the Eurozone
jhe90 wrote: Thats just insane, 75% taxes on a regular joe just trying ot exist....
It's sad, but seeing as Greek taxation is grossly inefficient there's a lot of people and companies that pay 0% instead and have been doing so since forever. Shipping companies, for example, have been exempt from taxes because they're important or something. Making a deal with the tax collector has also been very possible in the past - pay him a few hundred in cash so he forgets what the state wanted from you. Property tax has been entirely dependent on what you say the property is worth, and if the tax collector by chance disagreed he could be bribed - that's if he even knew you owned it in the first place, seeing as property records are also inefficient.
If your neighbor isn't paying (and isn't punished) why should you pay?
Yup.
I really can't feel sorry for the people who dodged their taxes for years suddenly owing more than they can pay.
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Shieldwolf Miniatures wrote: OK. Someone please tell me how the f*ck is this new bail-out supposed to "help me" and make the economy stand back on it's feet... :-(
Because I'm still considered a healthy enterprise and rising, but all this certainly does absolutely nothing to help me out and me and my collaborators are at the top of our limit as far as working hours is concerned. Maybe we should stop eating? Yeah, how come they didn't include that in the bail-out terms...? :-/
FWIW taxes before this came along where already ridiculously high anyway, with 26% and a 55% yearly deposit for next year.
In the previous example from the 20,000 euros declaration earnings/year this took away from me 4600+2530+1000=8130 euros in taxes, which left me with 11,870euros for a year's work. Already a steal AFAIC. Just saying how much "better" this new bail-out seems to be... :-(
I was afraid of this.
It has been mentioned many times that the tax collecting is missing 80-85% of what it should be.
The math that was applied to increasing taxes was probably based on current tax collection income and not what it "should" be getting.
Tax collecting vs avoidance is the real problem to wrestle and then the inefficiencies of government spending.
The Greek government is still doubling down on those few who actually pay their taxes or have no means of hiding it (large corporations or pension).
They have systemic problems and those are the areas that need the pain, not those doing the right thing.
Now taxes are high enough where no-one should pay them.
Other areas that are being looked at for "correction".
Just the 37 statutory/public holidays do not help (Canada 11??!!), the 45-55yrs old retirement age (Canada 67) and few controls of keeping money in-country just adds to the pain.
The new bail-out is not good, it is pretty much completely pushed by Germany of no haircut but hey, we can reduce interest and push out the loan a few more years.
IMF finally spoke loud enough to be heard that as the plans stand, it is not sustainable for Greece.
They basically have to blackmail the plan saying they cannot "help" with the bailout package due to their own polices preventing loans to countries on the road to bankruptcy.
It will start hitting the fan when all these forced voted-in bills actually get enforced.
The typical uneven enforcement is going to force Greece into defaulting on something, I honestly think exiting the Euro if not the EU is a matter of time unless Germany can see they will not / shall not pay all their loans.
Greece from the beginning should only be accountable to themselves, better to have them hammer-out how to handle their infighting and "corruption" than have somewhere else to blame.
A revolution is an idea which has found its bayonets.
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2015/07/23 21:39:27
Subject: Looks like Greece may be out of the Eurozone
Kilkrazy wrote: How impossible would it be for Greece to pay their bills if they were paying 85% of tax owed, rather than 15%?
Earlier in this thread I would have been happy to figure it out as a cool mental exorcise.
It is now a rather forgone conclusion from what I have read and looking into the some cultural leanings: recovery of that 85% will be a tough one.
Literally there will be rioting in the streets when those who were used to getting away with not paying taxes are held accountable.
Too many (note, no unfair statements like "all") of their citizens are used to living a lifestyle that is beyond their means and unsustainable.
A revolution is an idea which has found its bayonets.
Napoleon Bonaparte
2015/07/24 20:22:13
Subject: Looks like Greece may be out of the Eurozone
I think it really is a bit hard to expect EU citizens, Greek and others, who are paying their taxes, to dig deep into their pockets to help out the people who aren't.
Kilkrazy wrote: I think it really is a bit hard to expect EU citizens, Greek and others, who are paying their taxes, to dig deep into their pockets to help out the people who aren't.
While we were in France I had a poor soul who hit me up on the street asking for some loose change. When I wouldn't give him any of my money he threw a 10 cent piece at me and told me that I must need it more than him.
Why can't the poor people in Greek be more like that guy and give more to the people with more money who don't feel like handing it over?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/24 20:31:02
2015/07/24 20:33:36
Subject: Re:Looks like Greece may be out of the Eurozone
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
With as much tax evasion as there is in Greece I can't imagine its just corporations and the wealthy who are tax dodgers.
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If I remember correctly in Germany the additional income that are not taxed are called "Black Funds". Mostly that's concerning US Army Reservist who lives and work in Germany.
I know that being paid under the table is highly questionable
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2015/08/03 06:06:32
Subject: Looks like Greece may be out of the Eurozone
The Greek stock exchange has been closed for five weeks and re-opens today. Pent up demand for trading and pessimism about the economy is likely to cause a massive fall in share prices.
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You shouldn't be worried about the one bullet with your name on it, Boldric. You should be worried about the ones labelled "to whom it may concern"-from Blackadder goes Forth!
2015/08/06 04:28:56
Subject: Re:Looks like Greece may be out of the Eurozone
We spent like a page of this thread explaining why the Greek tax avoidance was vastly overstated, and not actually the driver of what's happened. But then it just springs up again as just an accepted fact. For feth's sake.
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
2015/08/09 17:03:34
Subject: Looks like Greece may be out of the Eurozone
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