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 Blackie wrote:
Incubi can't deal with hordes, actually they really suffer hordes. They're quite good against elites instead.

The 3+ armor in invalidated by the T3 and the absence of any invuln. They don't have that many attacks to clear a 30 man squad, while they can be wiped out by the survivors even if incubi charged first.

I usually bring them in this edition, a squad of 5 in a venom. Quite effective if used like a scalpel, I think you need other assault units though otherwise it would be easy for the opponent to avoid them.

They're only about 18 pts per model. I mean it's not great but it's not bad. Why could i not do 2 units of 5 in a raider with 2 raiders full of them or something? I was more wanting a unit that was ok at killing hordes and decent or ok vs other units. I find a lot of the anti-horde probably doesn't have too much utility outside of killing hordes. Poisoned shooting for instance tends to bounce off 3+ armor esp. if the enemy jumps into cover for a 2+ save. Understand i'm saying poisoned shooting can suck rather badly in many cases and be alright in others. My point with incubi is if i bring a 'take all comers' list and end up fighting lots of power armor or tanks then at least the incubi can cut through each and not be completely useless.

They aren't cheap at all, 18ppm with the necessity of a transport means an expensive unit.

10 incubi in a raider are 295 points and they can't clear a 30 man squad of boyz for example, actually they fail to kill even half the squad on average, but the surviving 15+ orks can kill 6+ incubi in return. With some buffs (weirdboyz, waaagh banner, ghaz) they can even clear all those 10 incubi with average rolls in return, and we're talking about the case in which incubi attack first and assuming that none of them dies in overwatch.

30 orks are only 180 points and many ork players field 180+ of them (or their equivalents like stormboyz or kommandos).

If you want to go with raiders I'd suggest taking mixed units, like 5 incubi and 5 kabalites/wyches in each raider. Or maybe 2x5 incubi in 2 venoms.

5 or 10 incubi are quite TAC though, I usually bring a unit of 5 anyway. But poisoned shots, while not particularly effective, are quite TAC as well, you need them even if you bring incubi.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Zuri Prime wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
Incubi can't deal with hordes, actually they really suffer hordes. They're quite good against elites instead.

The 3+ armor in invalidated by the T3 and the absence of any invuln. They don't have that many attacks to clear a 30 man squad, while they can be wiped out by the survivors even if incubi charged first.

I usually bring them in this edition, a squad of 5 in a venom. Quite effective if used like a scalpel, I think you need other assault units though otherwise it would be easy for the opponent to avoid them.

This right here. I'm not sure what can slaughter hordes for the DE besides massed poison shots. I run into the problem that my opponents either weather my five man squad to kill them with massed melee attacks, or just fall back and wipe them out that way. If anything they're a nice distraction to have to screen for a shooty army.

If we get a deepstrike stratagem in the next Codex I'll probably run a ten man squad to free up a venom/raider for something else.

DE doesnt have a good Horde killing option sadly, poison vs infantry (especially T3) is terrible

the_scotsman wrote:
Heck, if we get the webway stratagem I'm running 20 Kabalites with 2 Splinter Cannons and 2 Shredders, just to jump out and say boo at hordes of guardsmen.

This isnt like CWE with Guardians where they are T4 and 6 will rend, poison isnt good unless its T5+ and then your killing elites not infantry. Your talking about 186pts to kill12 Guardsman's, that 186pts out in the open as T3 5+/6+++ that only killed 12 5-6pt dudes. 15-16 if they are 6+ armor.


The problem with DE is that they are meant to shoot and Melee, but we cant get to melee safely at all.

how can we not get to melee safely? Raiders are just about perfect for that. You can use them to soak up all overwatch and subdivide the enemy unit however you like to prevent counterattack coming to our flimsier units.

The problem with our melee is we have nothing that does any damage. Practically nothing that will ever wound on better than a 4+, nothing with good multi-damage, and most of our units have pretty low attacks.

I'm talking about Beasts, Hellions, and Grots, all has a problem, some are to costly, some cant get ot melee as safely, others are 1 turn wonders that can get shot off in 1 turn, or needs to much support.

Ive been doing great with just all kabals and spamming MSU Raiders/Ravagers/Beasts and 2 Haemonculus (they are better in melee than Succubus for the most part sadly).

Mandrakes are very good as well, i have 20, i need to try out all of them in a game rather than just 2x5.

Well, luckily now there's WWP if you want to run Grots. wait til turn 2 and you ahve something like a combined chance to get in of 74%.

Hellions..I don't think there's any helping unless they get a points adjustment. T3 5+ W1 with two splinter shots and a crappy weapon is just....so ludicrous. they could have a half-dozen special rules slathered on and theyd still be worthless because every single gun in existence is points efficient shooting at them at 17PPM.

But thats what i mean, we dont have good AI, there is problems with all of them and the few that are dedicated to kill infantry (and i mean kill not "tie up") are either to costly or cant get into combat reliably .

Wyches, Incubi, Wracks can all get there, but they are not good at killing infantry.

If your melee killing you not only need to get there, but take overwatch (I know vehicles take it, but the point is they get to shoot overwatch), and the fact that they can fallback+shoot, that melee unit better kill a lot.

If a melee unit cant even kill its worth... then what is the point of taking them? Some melee units are key to a stratagey, i can understand that, like a small basic Reaver unit to tie up vehicles, that has utility, but i'm talking about dedicated AI, DE's AI is trash.

We just need to shoot a lot and try to stay alive with maybe a few cheap CC units.

Well i had multiple ideas to handle hordes and honestly i think i might go back to one i thought about before. Costs a lot of money but is insanely cheap in points.

So possibly use razorwing flocks for anti-horde. It will have issues vs toughness 4 for sure but it has plenty of wounds, it's cheap and if you go msu (3-6 per unit) it should help vs the low leadership. You can also have a beastmaster for leadership buff and re-rolls to hit.

Seriously it's really cheap in points. Even if you take like 24 of them it only comes out to less than 170 pts. The amount of damage vs toughness 3 is also pretty good for its points (for dark eldar anyway), it can fly and it has 12" movement.

If those 24 dudes should get into combat they do like 21 wounds before saves vs toughness 3 and still cost less than 170 pts.

Just so you know it's about 33 USD for 2 razorwing flocks so yeah if you're rich and like to show you have a lot of money go ahead and do it.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
Well i had multiple ideas to handle hordes and honestly i think i might go back to one i thought about before. Costs a lot of money but is insanely cheap in points.

So possibly use razorwing flocks for anti-horde. It will have issues vs toughness 4 for sure but it has plenty of wounds, it's cheap and if you go msu (3-6 per unit) it should help vs the low leadership. You can also have a beastmaster for leadership buff and re-rolls to hit.

Seriously it's really cheap in points. Even if you take like 24 of them it only comes out to less than 170 pts. The amount of damage vs toughness 3 is also pretty good for its points (for dark eldar anyway), it can fly and it has 12" movement.

If those 24 dudes should get into combat they do like 21 wounds before saves vs toughness 3 and still cost less than 170 pts.

Yes, Razorwing Flocks used to be great. But they got FAQ'd early on in 8th to cost 14 points apiece.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
Well i had multiple ideas to handle hordes and honestly i think i might go back to one i thought about before. Costs a lot of money but is insanely cheap in points.

So possibly use razorwing flocks for anti-horde. It will have issues vs toughness 4 for sure but it has plenty of wounds, it's cheap and if you go msu (3-6 per unit) it should help vs the low leadership. You can also have a beastmaster for leadership buff and re-rolls to hit.

Seriously it's really cheap in points. Even if you take like 24 of them it only comes out to less than 170 pts. The amount of damage vs toughness 3 is also pretty good for its points (for dark eldar anyway), it can fly and it has 12" movement.

If those 24 dudes should get into combat they do like 21 wounds before saves vs toughness 3 and still cost less than 170 pts.

Just so you know it's about 33 USD for 2 razorwing flocks so yeah if you're rich and like to show you have a lot of money go ahead and do it.

You seem to be using the pre- FAQ point cost. 24 razorwing flocks is double what you're planning on.

Dionysodorus wrote:

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
Well i had multiple ideas to handle hordes and honestly i think i might go back to one i thought about before. Costs a lot of money but is insanely cheap in points.

So possibly use razorwing flocks for anti-horde. It will have issues vs toughness 4 for sure but it has plenty of wounds, it's cheap and if you go msu (3-6 per unit) it should help vs the low leadership. You can also have a beastmaster for leadership buff and re-rolls to hit.

Seriously it's really cheap in points. Even if you take like 24 of them it only comes out to less than 170 pts. The amount of damage vs toughness 3 is also pretty good for its points (for dark eldar anyway), it can fly and it has 12" movement.

If those 24 dudes should get into combat they do like 21 wounds before saves vs toughness 3 and still cost less than 170 pts.

Yes, Razorwing Flocks used to be great. But they got FAQ'd early on in 8th to cost 14 points apiece.

God that's really obnoxious of GW. Seriously that would've helped us out considerably.

Its b.c players were using 200 as Ynnari with Yncarne and like 5 Beastmasters, it was almost unbeatable.

They still are worth a take imo.

Edit: Buy zombicide murder crows, its like 20$ for 15 of them, same size.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Its b.c players were using 200 as Ynnari with Yncarne and like 5 Beastmasters, it was almost unbeatable.

They still are worth a take imo.

Edit: Buy zombicide murder crows, its like 20$ for 15 of them, same size.

So basically they got nerfed because of multi-faction combos to an extent. Sigh. I haven't checked out as much of 8th as i should have. Is imperial super-friends still allowed? I'd imagine yes as they probably share the imperial keyword.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Its b.c players were using 200 as Ynnari with Yncarne and like 5 Beastmasters, it was almost unbeatable.

They still are worth a take imo.

Edit: Buy zombicide murder crows, its like 20$ for 15 of them, same size.

So basically they got nerfed because of multi-faction combos to an extent. Sigh. I haven't checked out as much of 8th as i should have. Is imperial super-friends still allowed? I'd imagine yes as they probably share the imperial keyword.

You didnt need to take them as Ynnari at all, Yncarne just made 3-4 units gain 6+++ and no Moral tests. It worked great with 4 Cronos and 5 Beastmasters and just an Archon for HQ due to Re-roll hits and 1's to wound from Cronos.

150 was easy to do with a small army, 150 was only 1000 points, thats 600 wounds and 1200 attacks re-roll hits/1's to wound with 12" Fly.

I personally still use 6-12 of them, they are great honestly, a 12" movement unit with large amounts of wounds and a large footprint can EASILY stop tanks, yeah its 168pts, but 2x6 units will stop vehicles. Ive shut down many vehicles with them, yes a Ravager could do damage to a vehicle over stopping them, but it cant do enough damage fast enough IMO compare to locking 2-3 vehicles down for 2 turns.

My lists normally are 4-5 Ravagers, 2x6 RWF, Voidbomber (no missiles) as a base, i've had a lot of success with this as a base.

Has anyone made any alternate clawed fiends? Was looking at crypt horrors, but wasnt sure if they were the right size or might look too much like grotesques.

Punisher23 wrote:
Has anyone made any alternate clawed fiends? Was looking at crypt horrors, but wasnt sure if they were the right size or might look too much like grotesques.

I just use my Hordes figures for fiends tbh. I've got an everblight big monster army, they look much more varied and impressive than the six nipple bugmonkeys.

Punisher23 wrote:
Has anyone made any alternate clawed fiends? Was looking at crypt horrors, but wasnt sure if they were the right size or might look too much like grotesques.

Yeah, AoS Crypt Horrors/Ghuls

Using spare talos bits and shaving down the face for the mask really brings them in line with dark eldar

What about sending 3 talos towards the enemy by a WWP? I think they will perform better than grots since they have a decent shooting a they are more durable. Still a 400ish points unit but it looks like a nice combo.

Is this even allowed? Or only infantries can use the portal? i don't have CA to check the rule.

Rule specifies infantry, bikers, and beasts. Could maybe be worth it to pop Toughness 3 bubble wraps. I'll check some math and some back, but I have a sneaking suspicion it won't be.

--edit--

I don't know what I was thinking. I did the math, offensively it's not even close to either of the good beasts + a beastmaster or just some Mandrakes.

If you value a T6 (T7 with Haemy) distraction carnifex that much? Go for it. But it won't do much in terms of output. You're talkin about 5 GEQ ish dead per Talos (usually lower) on average IF they make the charge.

If the output difference was smaller it might be worth it but I don't see it over Beastmaster + Fiends/Khymerae or just Mandrakes.

Vehicles and Monsters cannot use the Webway Portal stratagem. This makes sense, as in previous editions, Craftworld vehicles and monstrous creatures had deep strike rules and dark eldar vehicles and monsters did not.

wait, that's wrong...

Oh lol Talos can't use the drop anyway so I guess it's moot.

Since we're on the topic of Webway, I picked out a couple of units I think would be winners for Webway usage. Below is the math and my take to get us started. For the beasts, the math includes Beastmaster's damage output as well as the rerolls from him.

Mandrakes 190 pts / 15.85 wounds = 11.99 ppw
Khymerae + BM 180 pts / 15.66 wounds = 11.49 ppw
Clawed Fiends + BM 252 pts / 23.66 wounds = 10.65 ppw

I don't see why you'd ever drop Khymerae with the Webway stratagem. 5++ invuln is cool but you get that and -1 to hit with the Mandrakes, plus you don'tn rely on making the charge.

I do see an advantage to Clawed Fiends in the 2 damage. It will destroy TEQs and Primaris. Could be a nice counter-charge unit when Blood Angels, 1kSons, and Dark Angels get released, as I'm sure we'll see more deep-striking terminators. Also is a nice anti-Obliterator unit. I'm thinking my lists will now have 10x Mandrakes, a Beastmaster, and a max unit of Clawed Fiends.If I don't want to spend 3x Command points, I can always just run the Beastmaster up as I won't drop til turn 2 at the earliest anyway.

What are y'all's Webway candidates? Specifically, how would you use them?

....Am I nuts? Mandrakes already deep strike, right..? Have I been playing them wrong? I swear there is a rule that says "you can set them up in aerlindrach and then they show up 9" away".

Either way, my personal wwp units are going to be Hellions, Grotesques, Clawed Fiends, the occasional Haemonculus for games vs psyker heavy armies, Incubi maybe, Lelith Hesperax maybe. Depends on the situation.

 Chippen wrote:
Oh lol Talos can't use the drop anyway so I guess it's moot.

Since we're on the topic of Webway, I picked out a couple of units I think would be winners for Webway usage. Below is the math and my take to get us started. For the beasts, the math includes Beastmaster's damage output as well as the rerolls from him.

Mandrakes 190 pts / 15.85 wounds = 11.99 ppw
Khymerae + BM 180 pts / 15.66 wounds = 11.49 ppw
Clawed Fiends + BM 252 pts / 23.66 wounds = 10.65 ppw

I don't see why you'd ever drop Khymerae with the Webway stratagem. 5++ invuln is cool but you get that and -1 to hit with the Mandrakes, plus you don'tn rely on making the charge.

I do see an advantage to Clawed Fiends in the 2 damage. It will destroy TEQs and Primaris. Could be a nice counter-charge unit when Blood Angels, 1kSons, and Dark Angels get released, as I'm sure we'll see more deep-striking terminators. Also is a nice anti-Obliterator unit. I'm thinking my lists will now have 10x Mandrakes, a Beastmaster, and a max unit of Clawed Fiends.If I don't want to spend 3x Command points, I can always just run the Beastmaster up as I won't drop til turn 2 at the earliest anyway.

What are y'all's Webway candidates? Specifically, how would you use them?

My Webway candidate is a mob of 10 grotesques. A big, dumb, stupid mob that your opponent has to deal with, otherwise you're flooding them with cleaver attacks.

Yeah, Mandrakes deep strike, I just used it for comparison to see if we even have to use Webway at all as opposed to just using Mandrakes.

Honestly the only viable candidate I see for Webway is Clawed Fiends. If you're gonna drop something to force your opponent to deal with it, that dropped unit has to actually bring something to the table worth dealing with. Grots don't do it. For 202 points, you get a Grot with Whip, and 3 more with Flesh Gauntlets and Monstrous Cleavers. You're looking at a little over 9 GEQs killed per turn. Compare it to the math I did above, that just ain't gonna cut it.

Clawed Fiends actually have the output to make your opponent deal with them as opposed to ignoring them.

Hellions are a decent choice, but as they're only really decent against GEQs anyway.... you may as well go Mandrakes and have that -1 to hit and 5++. The only reason I'm considering Clawed Fiends in place of or more likely alongside Mandrakes is the flexibility against other targets.

4 grots with one scissor hand kill 9-10 GEQ in assault for 162 points. Thats about 25% of their points in one turn. Not bad really. If you take 10 that's 23-24 kills. And GEQ are a poor target for them.

They do better against tougher targets. Ruth the 10 man squad killing 14-15 MEQ or doing 12+ wounds to a T6-9 3+ Monster (Wraith Lord, Hive Tyrant, etc.)


Clawed Fiends with a BM are better at killing GEQ and vehicles. Why not take both and bring the characters up field by taxi?

For CC I would go with Wracks backed up with a Haemonculus with electro corrosive whip. Cheap, durable, and objective secured.

 D6Damager wrote:
For CC I would go with Wracks backed up with a Haemonculus with electro corrosive whip. Cheap, durable, and objective secured.

Do DE troops get Objective Secured? I figured we had to wait until Chapter Approved as an opponent I had wouldn't grant me that trait for my troops because they're index.

 Zuri Prime wrote:

 D6Damager wrote:
For CC I would go with Wracks backed up with a Haemonculus with electro corrosive whip. Cheap, durable, and objective secured.

Do DE troops get Objective Secured? I figured we had to wait until Chapter Approved as an opponent I had wouldn't grant me that trait for my troops because they're index.

Chapter Approved has been released. All troops are objective secured now.

I took a look at the Dark Eldar stuff in Chapter Approved on saturday and i have to say we got some nice stuff. Webway portals for 1 or 3 command points depending on if we take one or two units deepstriking through webway. Even if you wanted to go cheap you could throw out two 20 man warrior squads and without upgrades it'd only cost like 280 pts and output about 80 poisoned shots at half range. Of course it allows beasts, bikers and infantry so a lot of units that'd otherwise be too expensive to transport could go by webway. That or you could throw out grotesques or beasts or something. I'm pretty excited at all the options really.

The genestealer cults i want to play got some good boosts too.

Other than all that i had a kill points game on saturday with my dark eldar vs death guard (with mortarion) at 1500 pts. My rolls and opponents saves vs mortarion weren't so hot so eventually i just entirely avoided him with everything and used the long ranged fast moving units (mostly dark lance based) to attack other units for kill points. I suppose the bad idea i had was to use the short ranged blasters to engage mortarion at all. I should've moved away from mortarion with them and just attacked his dudes in the building. I lost 4 to 7 (almost 5 to 7) but had i learned some of the things i should've done in the game sooner i would've had a good chance of winning possibly even handily.

They fixed one of the 4-5 main problems with DE, sadly they didnt fix the others at all.

The Court was Over-costed but now that they broke the character rule players will find them to cheap, this isnt the courts fault its the STUPID CHARACTER RULES. Get ready for QQing

The other DE problems were WAY over costed units/gear.

Reavers
Lelith
Drazhar
Blasters
Blast Pistols
Heat Lances


Hellions
Grots
Talos

Those units are GROSSLY over costed, some re double the points that they need to be. The top 6 are literally dbl if not over dbl the cost of what they should be.

IDk why those 3 units and 3 weapons didnt get touched, they would have been the 1st thing i would have changed for DE.

To me its clear they are just trying to sell Court models, but sadly no one buys them, literally everyone 3rd party them due to they are 3-5$ and better material, vs 16$+ for a single gakky failcast model.

Can't see how court may bring QQing. Am I blind for some combo that is out there now? Rule is dumb, yeah, but i doubt that court would be abusable. At least no more than other characters could.

Most things that Im aware of use infiltration or DS into area that can't be sen by opponent( Nurglings and so on).
Cant imagine court going full into Assasinstyle list. AM I missing something?

 Spera wrote:
Can't see how court may bring QQing. Am I blind for some combo that is out there now? Rule is dumb, yeah, but i doubt that court would be abusable. At least no more than other characters could.

Most things that Im aware of use infiltration or DS into area that can't be sen by opponent( Nurglings and so on).
Cant imagine court going full into Assasinstyle list. AM I missing something?

When you can field 20+ Single man units that are characters, doing either the following;
6 S4 attacks
9" -2 AP 4 shots
2+ Poison 6+ = mortal wounds
18" 3 shot poison with 3 melee attacks

I would take Ur-Ghuls and Medusae, take a few of each (300pts or so of them giving you 15 or so characters).

They are great at AI, something DE needed, having cheap, No need transport, cant shoot AI backed by 15 Lances some Dis cannons/Bombers its going to be hard to focus targets effectively