Are Conscripts Overpowered Now???

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**Martel732**

Marmatag wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Two turns of whirlwind battery, a turn of inceptor fire and a DC charge fix this problem. Don't underestimate whirlwinds, as you can't get away from them and they are non-trivial to knock out.

Who in their right mind would bring Inceptors, though?

I did. I really like them so far. They are a very BA unit.

**SilverAlien**

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Here is the thing, the nay Sayers want the conscript unit to "flee in droves" due to morale. But if they literally ran away in masses, coupled with how easy they are to kill, please tell me where the use in taking them comes from? If there was a way to have A FEW only run, more than one less than "many" it would potentially be a middle ground. However, if you make them flee in droves then the unit as a whole becomes useless at all and you KILL a unit in the codex, which is NOT what anyone should want. The unit should be playable, but fair

Commissar executes a model, then adds his leadership to the units leadership for the rest of the morale phase? For smaller units (normal guard) the effect is virtually unchanged as leadership 14-16 won't be threatened unless the unit is effectively dead already. For conscripts, it'll keep morale from being an issue unless you are taking a lot of casualties, and even then effectively ignoring 6-7 morale casualties isn't bad.

**JimOnMars**

War Kitten wrote:
So am I. I honestly don't think that Conscripts are overpowered this edition, strong? Maybe. But overpowered? God no. I attended an 8th edition tourney last week where one of the attendees brought a big old unit of Conscripts plus Commissars. His Conscripts got curb stomped in nearly every single game, and he came in dead last.

Now I know that personal experience and the situations at my FLGS don't matter too much. But all the hoopla about Conscripts being OP is hilarious, and not worthwhile.

If that is true, then what about grots? For exactly the same cost, we get 1 less strength, 1 less toughness, 2 points less of armor, 1 less shot (12 pistol vs 24 rapid fire). The grots DO have better ballistic skill, but that hardly makes up for it.

if conscripts aren't OP, then grots are UP.

**Inquisitor Lord Katherine**

JimOnMars wrote:
War Kitten wrote:
So am I. I honestly don't think that Conscripts are overpowered this edition, strong? Maybe. But overpowered? God no. I attended an 8th edition tourney last week where one of the attendees brought a big old unit of Conscripts plus Commissars. His Conscripts got curb stomped in nearly every single game, and he came in dead last.

Now I know that personal experience and the situations at my FLGS don't matter too much. But all the hoopla about Conscripts being OP is hilarious, and not worthwhile.

If that is true, then what about grots? For exactly the same cost, we get 1 less strength, 1 less toughness, 2 points less of armor, 1 less shot (12 pistol vs 24 rapid fire). The grots DO have better ballistic skill, but that hardly makes up for it.

if conscripts aren't OP, then grots are UP.

Grots are overpriced. That's kind of obvious, because their unit as isn't worth 1ppm, much less 3.

**Pain4Pleasure**

I agree grits should truly be 1 ppm. Part of their thing use to be cover saves for regular pros behind them but since that doesn't work that way anymore...

**ross-128**

I wouldn't go that far on grots either. At 2ppm grots would be quite capable of getting things done by dice saturation, especially since they would have a remarkably good ballistic skill for a 2 point model.

**Galas**

1 ppm Grots. An army with 2000 grots. It needs to happen!

**Insectum7**

Ashiraya wrote:Grey Knights?

Selym wrote:Deathwatch?

Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Harlequins.

Can i just say that none of those factions are truly intended to be a stand alone army in the first place? Each of those is a "best of the best, of the best, of the best, with honors, Sir!" army, and I'm not suprised that they would have some problems vs. cheap hordes, given their inherent lower model count and lack of options. It would also suprise me if they functioned decently againt an Ork or Tyranid horde, as well.

I think thats fine. In fact I prefer it.

**Inquisitor Lord Katherine**

Insectum7 wrote:
Ashiraya wrote:Grey Knights?

Selym wrote:Deathwatch?

Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Harlequins.

Can i just say that none of those factions are truly intended to be a stand alone army in the first place? Each of those is a "best of the best, of the best, of the best, with honors, Sir!" army, and I'm not suprised that they would have some problems vs. cheap hordes, given their inherent lower model count and lack of options. It would also suprise me if they functioned decently againt an Ork or Tyranid horde, as well.

I think thats fine. In fact I prefer it.

I agree with this sentiment too. Just pointing it out though.

**Daedalus81**

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Here is the thing, the nay Sayers want the conscript unit to "flee in droves" due to morale. But if they literally ran away in masses, coupled with how easy they are to kill, please tell me where the use in taking them comes from? If there was a way to have A FEW only run, more than one less than "many" it would potentially be a middle ground. However, if you make them flee in droves then the unit as a whole becomes useless at all and you KILL a unit in the codex, which is NOT what anyone should want. The unit should be playable, but fair

They only thing I don't like is their 5+ armor save. It adds up quite a bit.

**SHUPPET**

I feel like Guard players are absolutely in denial right now and will say anything if it means justifying having something OP

**NenkotaMoon**

Or everyone else really and the IG are the sane ones. Those Flyer lists are looking fierce.

**44Ronin**

SHUPPET wrote:
I feel like Guard players are absolutely in denial right now and will say anything if it means justifying having something OP

The hyperbole of calling conscripts OP.

There's someone in denial alright,

**Selym**

SHUPPET wrote:
I feel like Guard players are absolutely in denial right now and will say anything if it means justifying having something OP

Just like C:SM players last edition

Not directed at anyone in particular, but being UP in one edition does not justify being OP the next for "revenge". Neither does the reverse make sense. GW flattens some codexes and makes unbeatable others on this principle. It's not "being fair", it's not about "getting your turn". It's about them making money at the expense of our H-H-H-Hobby. The correct solution is genuine attempts at balance.

**Melissia**

SHUPPET wrote:
I feel like Guard players are absolutely in denial right now and will say anything if it means justifying having something OP

Marines have placed highly in all tourney results I've seen since 8th was released, while Guard have at best b een mediocre. So... no.

You don't know how the game works, so you panic over something you don't understand. But that doesn't make the thing you don't understand OP.

**Daedalus81**

SilverAlien wrote:

Transports jack up the price a great deal, and when the other unit doesn't. I'm also going to ignore the inane theory craft showing one expensive unit can kill a cheap one? Yes that's how the game is balanced idk what you think that proves.

The point is that said unit can be removed without impacting the game in a meaningful way. That example is overkill. You can achieve roughly the same result with less. Conscripts occupy a huge area, are slow, and you know exactly where they can be dangerous.

**NenkotaMoon**

Selym wrote:
SHUPPET wrote:
I feel like Guard players are absolutely in denial right now and will say anything if it means justifying having something OP
Just like C:SM players last edition

Not directed at anyone in particular, but being UP in one edition does not justify being OP the next for "revenge". Neither does the reverse make sense. GW flattens some codexes and makes unbeatable others on this principle. It's not "being fair", it's not about "getting your turn". It's about them making money at the expense of our H-H-H-Hobby. The correct solution is genuine attempts at balance.

Or salt from what I've seen from most of this thread.

**SHUPPET**

edit: not feeding it

**Melissia**

And yet it remains the case that, so far, guard HAVEN'T performed OMG WTF BBQ OH WOW SO OP like you're trying to claim. And Space Marines continue to dominate.

**NenkotaMoon**

I see more math hammer really.

**Melissia**

SHUPPET wrote:
Perhaps your personal experience not measuring up is more just due to your personal level as skill as a player?

I haven't played Guard since sixth edition, only played against them with Sisters and Orks (and mostly Sisters, since my Orks were sold off in seventh). In fact, the only Guard models I still own (sold them off to pay for college textbooks) are a single squad of catachan that I mostly keep as a memento.

But please, keep up with the personal attacks based off of assumptions you've pulled right out of your rectal cavity, seeing as you don't actually have any argument worth defending to begin with.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Selym wrote:
SHUPPET wrote:
I feel like Guard players are absolutely in denial right now and will say anything if it means justifying having something OP
Just like C:SM players last edition

Not directed at anyone in particular, but being UP in one edition does not justify being OP the next for "revenge". Neither does the reverse make sense. GW flattens some codexes and makes unbeatable others on this principle. It's not "being fair", it's not about "getting your turn". It's about them making money at the expense of our H-H-H-Hobby. The correct solution is genuine attempts at balance.

You mean the Gladius that literally nobody denied was OP but you're deciding otherwise to fit your narrative?

**997Turbo**

ross-128 wrote:
997Turbo wrote:
There is also the whole conscripts get 3 attacks each thing. And get orders. And ignore morale. And provide amazing screens and objective coverage to some of the most devastating shooting in the game.

There's no scenario where conscripts get 3 attacks per model. They get 1 attack standard. Fix Bayonets can give them a second fight phase, so effectively 2 attacks. A priest can give them +1 attack, also 2 attacks. If you stack both together you can get 4 (two fight phases at two attacks each), but then you've spent an extra 65 points supporting them.

Also, Fix Bayonets cannot be used in the turn that they charge or are charged, because you can only give orders in the shooting phase. This means that Fix Bayonets can never be used on a full-strength blob, they will always have to spend one round in combat taking casualties before they can use it.

They're also not entirely immune to morale: they still lose 1 model, and they need a 31 point commissar to do that. If for some reason you have all three supporting models, you've spent 246 points on the conscript blob. That's about as expensive as a Land Raider.

Straken & Priest. 3 Attacks each. Buffing 2-3 50 man blobs. They just stand in midfield or defend a savage gunline for almost no points. Not to mention objective capping is based on models now.

Losing one conscript is effectively immune to morale.

The issue isn't their insane output, its that they are extremely good at just getting in the way AND also can contribute offensively somewhat. If AM shooting wasn't so devastating it wouldn't be as big of an issue. The same problem arises with brimstone horrors. An ideal chaff unit is one that is cheap and ignores morale. I would gladly take a termagant with no save, no weapon, Toughness and Strength of 1 if it was only 1 or 2 points. I don't want to pay for WS3 and a Fleshborer. Conscripts and Brimstones are too strong because you are paying extremely low points for a model to effectively get in the of things when it also offers much more then that.

**kurhanik**

997Turbo wrote:
ross-128 wrote:
997Turbo wrote:
There is also the whole conscripts get 3 attacks each thing. And get orders. And ignore morale. And provide amazing screens and objective coverage to some of the most devastating shooting in the game.

There's no scenario where conscripts get 3 attacks per model. They get 1 attack standard. Fix Bayonets can give them a second fight phase, so effectively 2 attacks. A priest can give them +1 attack, also 2 attacks. If you stack both together you can get 4 (two fight phases at two attacks each), but then you've spent an extra 65 points supporting them.

Also, Fix Bayonets cannot be used in the turn that they charge or are charged, because you can only give orders in the shooting phase. This means that Fix Bayonets can never be used on a full-strength blob, they will always have to spend one round in combat taking casualties before they can use it.

They're also not entirely immune to morale: they still lose 1 model, and they need a 31 point commissar to do that. If for some reason you have all three supporting models, you've spent 246 points on the conscript blob. That's about as expensive as a Land Raider.

Straken & Priest. 3 Attacks each. Buffing 2-3 50 man blobs. They just stand in midfield or defend a savage gunline for almost no points. Not to mention objective capping is based on models now.

Losing one conscript is effectively immune to morale.

The issue isn't their insane output, its that they are extremely good at just getting in the way AND also can contribute offensively somewhat. If AM shooting wasn't so devastating it wouldn't be as big of an issue. The same problem arises with brimstone horrors. An ideal chaff unit is one that is cheap and ignores morale. I would gladly take a termagant with no save, no weapon, Toughness and Strength of 1 if it was only 1 or 2 points. I don't want to pay for WS3 and a Fleshborer. Conscripts and Brimstones are too strong because you are paying extremely low points for a model to effectively get in the of things when it also offers much more then that.

That build you have there....it is 155 points of support units for Straken, Priest, and presumably a Commissar, minimum, to buff up 100 conscripts to have 3 strength 3 attacks in melee. It also ties you to using Catachans, which for now is mostly meaningless but later on might mean something. Depending on your points limit, this is a significant amount of investment for what is honestly probably not the best output, I'd imagine most people would just shoot around the big, unwieldy blob at the more dangerous units on the field and just take the occasional pot shot at the conscripts with their less useful tools.

Really, all conscripts need is to scale slightly less well with the Commissar - lose one guy per 10 in the unit, or even 1d6 as the Commissar instills order in them.

**ross-128**

Yeah, by the time you've thrown in Straken, a priest, a commissar, and a CC, you deserve to have those conscripts kill something by that point. Might as well throw Harker in for good measure then, he's Catachan too.

So let's see, you've got 96 points of generic characters, 300 points of conscripts, 90 points for Straken, and 50 points of Harker. That's 536 points in total. You could buy a Baneblade for that much, probably with some sponsons. Yeah, I don't think it should be surprising that 536 points of models all working together as a team might be a bit threatening.

It'd probably be a viable list, it'd probably even be kind of entertaining to see in action. But you're certainly paying an arm and a leg for it, I think those points will cover that power just fine.

**kurhanik**

Doesn't Straken give orders? You wouldn't need a Company Commander as well, though that is only 30 points there.

**Robin5t**

casvalremdeikun wrote:
@Inquisitor Lord Katherine

Don't Harlequins have the Death Jester to bust the Commissar?

They do, but it'll probably take the DJ two turns to kill one unless they've somehow been wounded already.

**tneva82**

Melissia wrote:
And yet it remains the case that, so far, guard HAVEN'T performed OMG WTF BBQ OH WOW SO OP like you're trying to claim. And Space Marines continue to dominate.

And how many IG players had already 100+ conscripts lying around? I know I didn't so I couldn't bring the conscript horde yet no matter how broken it would be.

Marines meanwhile...Well most of their good stuff marine players already had ready to go.

Generally when things change(new codex and in particular new edition) tournaments right at the start rarely have optimal lists even if they are known. Especially as the competive players aren't neccessarily biggest collectors and have just the efficient build.

**Selym**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Selym wrote:
SHUPPET wrote:
I feel like Guard players are absolutely in denial right now and will say anything if it means justifying having something OP
Just like C:SM players last edition

Not directed at anyone in particular, but being UP in one edition does not justify being OP the next for "revenge". Neither does the reverse make sense. GW flattens some codexes and makes unbeatable others on this principle. It's not "being fair", it's not about "getting your turn". It's about them making money at the expense of our H-H-H-Hobby. The correct solution is genuine attempts at balance.

You mean the Gladius that literally nobody denied was OP but you're deciding otherwise to fit your narrative?

Whole threads went down with SM players arguing that the IG had it better in 7e. So no.

**SHUPPET**

tneva82 wrote:
Melissia wrote:
And yet it remains the case that, so far, guard HAVEN'T performed OMG WTF BBQ OH WOW SO OP like you're trying to claim. And Space Marines continue to dominate.

And how many IG players had already 100+ conscripts lying around? I know I didn't so I couldn't bring the conscript horde yet no matter how broken it would be.

Marines meanwhile...Well most of their good stuff marine players already had ready to go.

Generally when things change(new codex and in particular new edition) tournaments right at the start rarely have optimal lists even if they are known. Especially as the competive players aren't neccessarily biggest collectors and have just the efficient build.

no no, 1 weeks time is totally enough to completely evaluate a meta /s

seriously, this should go unsaid. It astounds me that people are actually trying to use week one stats to justify their downplay.