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 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
Those militia options are definitely better than they used to be due to the cheaper cost, but man 1 gun per unit at BS5+ is so disappointing. Frag grenades in the launcher might not be so bad against the appropriate targets, though.

TBh why bother with the nade launcher for 3 pts wich averages 1 hit, compared to the stubber for 2 points which averages a hit s4.

I was told the HWT are mostly trash and should only be used for mortars which put out enough shots to possibly hit something.

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:
I was told the HWT are mostly trash and should only be used for mortars which put out enough shots to possibly hit something.

That was before, where the heavy stubbers cost was 4pts a piece.

For militia now they are a viable option, even for Heavy weapon squads since they are now 3ppm cheaper or basically you get 2.5 stubbers per mortar.

There is still an argument for mortar over stubber, but for mainline militia squads the stubber is basically a 2pts S4 guaranteed hit since it also has 3 shots.

nade launcher on the other hand, whilest i like them, are for 3 ppm with the same average ammount of shots but weaker S value only somthing if you really have some odd points left and no place for stubbers.

And the heavy stubber team is an awesome model. Shame there’s only 1 variant, but oh well.

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
And the heavy stubber team is an awesome model. Shame there’s only 1 variant, but oh well.

And only available at ridiculous prices

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
And the heavy stubber team is an awesome model. Shame there’s only 1 variant, but oh well.

And only available at ridiculous prices

Ha i managed to get 2.
But tbh, get the IG vehicle upgrade sprue and make some Mortar support teams.
Then you can build your own heavy Stubbers.

Alternativly anvil, or others have stubbers

Honestly I use the militia models as my disciples and regular guard as the militia. I just ordered some heads off Maxmini to go on them since every IG and GSC with a mask on them is sold out everywhere.

Actually pretty much anything IG or GSC bits is sold out. Lasguns, heads, auto guns, heavy weapons, etc

I know it’s bad practice but I’ve calculated the damage per point cost against marines

 ulfhednir86 wrote:
I know it’s bad practice but I’ve calculated the damage per point cost against marines

Too much math for me...

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:

 ulfhednir86 wrote:
I know it’s bad practice but I’ve calculated the damage per point cost against marines

Too much math for me...

It basically tells you what load out does the most damage for it’s worth
Frag and krak are in reference to grenade launcher shots.
The special weapons are all 2 per unit and heavy is only 1.
All lasgun gaks are at max range not rapid fire.
Basically 2 flamers in a 10 man militia squad does the most raw damage
Followed by a unit with a heavy bolter squad.

 ulfhednir86 wrote:

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:

 ulfhednir86 wrote:
I know it’s bad practice but I’ve calculated the damage per point cost against marines

Too much math for me...

It basically tells you what load out does the most damage for it’s worth
Frag and krak are in reference to grenade launcher shots.
The special weapons are all 2 per unit and heavy is only 1.
All lasgun gaks are at max range not rapid fire.
Basically 2 flamers in a 10 man militia squad does the most raw damage
Followed by a unit with a heavy bolter squad.

You compare max range non rapidfire lasguns with flamers in full range?
That is the perfect trapchoice argument right there. Flamers are not worth it period. 8" range does not compare with anything on the list.

A normal 10 man squad with 2 flamers won't even come close to a 5 man marine squad, not to mention that if the marine player is smart, he will just charge you after shooting you, since in melee militia is generally pisspoor without the support tools.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 ulfhednir86 wrote:

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:

 ulfhednir86 wrote:
I know it’s bad practice but I’ve calculated the damage per point cost against marines

Too much math for me...

It basically tells you what load out does the most damage for it’s worth
Frag and krak are in reference to grenade launcher shots.
The special weapons are all 2 per unit and heavy is only 1.
All lasgun gaks are at max range not rapid fire.
Basically 2 flamers in a 10 man militia squad does the most raw damage
Followed by a unit with a heavy bolter squad.

You compare max range non rapidfire lasguns with flamers in full range?
That is the perfect trapchoice argument right there. Flamers are not worth it period. 8" range does not compare with anything on the list.

A normal 10 man squad with 2 flamers won't even come close to a 5 man marine squad, not to mention that if the marine player is smart, he will just charge you after shooting you, since in melee militia is generally pisspoor without the support tools.

No troop choice we have can compete with 5 marines lol

No troop choice we have can compete with 5 marines lol

militia comes close, if you decide to camp around with a mortar.
5 marines are 65 pts. that is 15 militas with a mortar.

Not Online!!! wrote:

No troop choice we have can compete with 5 marines lol

militia comes close, if you decide to camp around with a mortar.
5 marines are 65 pts. that is 15 militas with a mortar.

I will run it through my mathhamer program when I get home but sadly marines are still way ahead :(
Heavy bolters are the better damage per point cost

 ulfhednir86 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

No troop choice we have can compete with 5 marines lol

militia comes close, if you decide to camp around with a mortar.
5 marines are 65 pts. that is 15 militas with a mortar.

I will run it through my mathhamer program when I get home but sadly marines are still way ahead :(
Heavy bolters are the better damage per point cost

Tbf you could also argue that 1 heavy bolter is 4 stubbers.

Problem is, 70% of time the stubbers will easily outperform the one bolter.

Then there is the fact that los ignoring is immensly usefull.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 ulfhednir86 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

No troop choice we have can compete with 5 marines lol

militia comes close, if you decide to camp around with a mortar.
5 marines are 65 pts. that is 15 militas with a mortar.

I will run it through my mathhamer program when I get home but sadly marines are still way ahead :(
Heavy bolters are the better damage per point cost

Tbf you could also argue that 1 heavy bolter is 4 stubbers.

Problem is, 70% of time the stubbers will easily outperform the one bolter.

Then there is the fact that los ignoring is immensly usefull.

Fair enough but you can see the damage vs marines and damage per point in the picture and the extra strength and ap seems to our weigh the extra points.

Nope it doesn't, against t4 targets the heavy Bolter is better, but overall i get 4 stubbers for 1 bolter in points.
And even there you fire at marines with a 3 + armor. Take Sisters f.e. They also have a 3 + save but the wounds generated against them by s4/5 weapons are equal. Now excuse me then i say that the heavy Bolter is just outperformed against most targets.

Stubber vs bolter.
That are 12 shots 4 hits and 2 wounds so 2/3rd dead marine.

Comparativly a heavy bolter has 3 shots, 1 hit, 2/3 chance of a wound and 1/3rd chance of a dead marine.


Against t3 targets the stubber nearly performs equally, except against good armor saves but you still manage more output.

And just from a statistical standpoint it makes sense to tend to as high as possible volume of fire for renegades since that especially on militia bodies leads to more hits.

And this is where the heavy Bolter loses out.
8ppm compared to 2 ppm for the Same volume of fire.
The quality aspect is completly to be disregarded for renegades militia since for quality our troops are to bad.
Quantity however turns this around.

And even for quality argument a disciple Team with heavy bolter pays as cheap as possible 32 pts.
If you get the disciples a stubber instead that would also buy you another disciple, or a nade launcher or even a flamer.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Nope it doesn't, against t4 targets the heavy Bolter is better, but overall i get 4 stubbers for 1 bolter in points.
And even there you fire at marines with a 3 + armor. Take Sisters f.e. They also have a 3 + save but the wounds generated against them by s4/5 weapons are equal. Now excuse me then i say that the heavy Bolter is just outperformed against most targets.

Stubber vs bolter.
That are 12 shots 4 hits and 2 wounds so 2/3rd dead marine.

Comparativly a heavy bolter has 3 shots, 1 hit, 2/3 chance of a wound and 1/3rd chance of a dead marine.


Against t3 targets the stubber nearly performs equally, except against good armor saves but you still manage more output.

And just from a statistical standpoint it makes sense to tend to as high as possible volume of fire for renegades since that especially on militia bodies leads to more hits.

And this is where the heavy Bolter loses out.
8ppm compared to 2 ppm for the Same volume of fire.
The quality aspect is completly to be disregarded for renegades militia since for quality our troops are to bad.
Quantity however turns this around.

And even for quality argument a disciple Team with heavy bolter pays as cheap as possible 32 pts.
If you get the disciples a stubber instead that would also buy you another disciple, or a nade launcher or even a flamer.

Fair points
I think it’s because I also had the points cost of the milita as well.
I am tempted just to run militia nude to save points or to not take troops at all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also I use the militia to move up and take objectives and screen the elites and tanks so don’t need pew pew for that.
Also with stubbers cultists are better if you do want them for dakka

Considering i only run troops for r&h when I also run my csm that makes sense.
Pure elite works not to bad.

Ok ran the stubber militia in my mathammer program and here is the result

 ulfhednir86 wrote:
Ok ran the stubber militia in my mathammer program and here is the result

Have you just run the stubber and ignored the lasguns or am i missing something and need to clean my glasses again?

Not Online!!! wrote:

 ulfhednir86 wrote:
Ok ran the stubber militia in my mathammer program and here is the result

Have you just run the stubber and ignored the lasguns or am i missing something and need to clean my glasses again?

Sorry your right as usual :p
I’m running it at 12” because of bolter drill even though the lasgun gets to rapid fire as well.
Still the marines out preforms the stubber.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not by much though


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also feel free to give feedback on the mathhammer program.
It’s not finished but anything you would like me to add in ir change.
I’m planning to and a save/load feature and unit comparison and an army compare. Hope you guys find it helpful

Try running equal points in disciples and a 5 man squad marines.

Basically 10 disiciples with a mortar team.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Try running equal points in disciples and a 5 man squad marines.

Basically 10 disiciples with a mortar team.

Sadly I haven’t added that feature in the program yet :( will do when I have time.
I can do it in excel later

Not Online!!! wrote:
Try running equal points in disciples and a 5 man squad marines.

Basically 10 disiciples with a mortar team.

8 discple 0.5925925926
mortar team 0.462962963
Total 1.055555556
Damage per point 0.01623931624

5 Marines 2.962962963
Damage per point 0.04558404558

Summary:
Disciple dealt: 0.07407407407407408 damage.
Lasgun*: 0.07407407407407408

Damage per point: 0.01234567901234568
Effectiveness: 54.166666666666664%
Comparitive point: 3.25/6

Disciple dealt: 0.46296296296296297 damage.
Mortar*: 0.3888888888888889
Lasgun*: 0.07407407407407408

Damage per point: 0.04208754208754209
Effectiveness: 184.65909090909088%
Comparitive point: 20.312499999999996/11

Summary:
Marine dealt: 0.5925925925925927 damage.
Bolter*: 0.5925925925925927
Bolt Pistol: 0.29629629629629634

Damage per point: 0.04558404558404559
Effectiveness: 184.61538461538464%
Comparitive point: 24.000000000000004/13

9 disciples, the weapon team can fire both, so 9 disciples with lasgun, and a mortar.

Not Online!!! wrote:
9 disciples, the weapon team can fire both, so 9 disciples with lasgun, and a mortar.

I know, if you look at the summary you can see that the mortar team lasgun fires as well. These stats are at 24” with marines with bolter drill.

 ulfhednir86 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
9 disciples, the weapon team can fire both, so 9 disciples with lasgun, and a mortar.

I know, if you look at the summary you can see that the mortar team lasgun fires as well. These stats are at 24” with marines with bolter drill.

Was confused, see it now.

Sad actually to see that we don't really offer much, then again if we tried a autocannon and a plasma gun on a smaller squad i think we could get a better result.

That said,

Feelsbadman atm to be renegades sometimes.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 ulfhednir86 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
9 disciples, the weapon team can fire both, so 9 disciples with lasgun, and a mortar.

I know, if you look at the summary you can see that the mortar team lasgun fires as well. These stats are at 24” with marines with bolter drill.

Was confused, see it now.

Sad actually to see that we don't really offer much, then again if we tried a autocannon and a plasma gun on a smaller squad i think we could get a better result.

That said,

Feelsbadman atm to be renegades sometimes.

I’m trying to add a save and load function going then I’ll send you the beta if you like


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also keep in mind that that is probably the best range for the marines and only if they were stationary (which would be likely for smart marine players but also it’s if the sergeant has a bolter

For anyone wanting to jump ship and play a better more guerilla style faction and happens to like nurgle:
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Cult_Tenebrous

Chaos nurgle Genestealer cult.

I’m trying to add a save and load function going then I’ll send you the beta if you like

would be very nice.
Thanks for that.