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godardc wrote: I haven't read the 10 pages, but...the policeman was somalian ? He wasn't American but was in the American Police ?
From the original CNN story on page 1:
The officer involved in the shooting, Mohamed Noor, extended his condolences to the family in a statement through his attorney. Noor came to the United States at a young age and is thankful to have had so many opportunities, attorney Thomas Plunkett said.
When I initially necro'd this thread, I was going to mention that almost half a mil for bail seems excessive for a dude who probably pulled in 50K yearly for his 3 year stint. Guess it wasn't.
Also, not sure I agree with the comments from the Somali-America Police Association in this article.
Interesting detail in the last sentence in this article too.
The former Minneapolis police officer charged with murder and manslaughter in the July shooting death of Justine Ruszczyk Damond made his first court appearance Wednesday, where his bail was set at $400,000.
During the hearing, Mohamed Noor said his first public words since the incident in south Minneapolis, spelling his name and confirming his address to Judge Kathryn Quaintance. Noor, slight and soft-spoken, said nothing else during the 15-minute hearing at the Public Safety Facility in downtown Minneapolis.
Quaintance set his bail at $400,000 on the condition that he turn over his passport, surrender his firearms and ammunition and refrain from contacting his former partner Matthew Harrity, the lone witness in the racially charged case that drew international outrage and led to the ouster of former police Chief Janeé Harteau. Bail without conditions was set at $500,000. Noor paid the $400,000 conditional bond and left the Hennepin County jail late Wednesday in the company of his attorney.
Police union officials said that Noor was fired from the department on Tuesday.
Throughout the hearing Wednesday, Noor stood behind a glass partition in an orange jail jumpsuit, wearing a solemn expression. He barely turned to face the packed courtroom gallery, never making eye contact with a group of relatives and friends seated in the front row. Several dozen other supporters huddled in the hallway outside the courtroom.
Noor, 32, turned himself in on Tuesday morning, a day after authorities issued a sealed warrant for his arrest. He is charged with firing his gun from inside his police SUV and hitting Damond, who had called 911 to report a suspected assault in the alley behind her Fulton neighborhood home. Her death provoked protests and became a symbol, in Minneapolis and her native Australia, of how police shootings affect all communities. It also led to Harteau’s firing by then-Mayor Betsy Hodges.
Noor maintained his silence, choosing not to speak to state investigators or the grand jury investigating Damond’s death. The grand jury concluded its probe Monday, the day before Hennepin County Attorney Mike Freeman announced his charging decision.
Assistant Hennepin County Attorney Amy Sweasy argued that Noor’s bail should be substantial, saying that he posed a flight risk, and that her office had developed “credible evidence” last fall that Noor had left the country.
The report proved false, but she said prosecutors grew more worried after hearing from a witness who claimed that he had “offered to hide [Noor] out.”
“These are the witness’ words, not mine,” she said.
Noor’s attorney, Thomas Plunkett, said in court that the charges against his client were baseless, while calling the initial $500,000 bail “frankly, outrageous.”
He pointed out that Noor had submitted his DNA to the state Bureau of Criminal Apprehension in June for testing, and later voluntarily went to City Hall to meet with an investigator after rumors surfaced that he had left the country.
Plunkett said that Noor posed no risk of fleeing, adding that the former officer came to Minnesota at the age of 5, escaping a civil war in his native Somalia, and had never known another home.
“He has no connection to any other place,” said Plunkett, after waiving a reading of the charges. “Your Honor, Mr. Noor is an American.”
After hearing from both sides, Quaintance offered the conditional bail and set Noor’s next court date for May 8.
“Officer Noor, like any other person charged with a crime in America, is presumed innocent until proven guilty,” Quaintance said. “If he has a trial, it will be in a court of law, not in the media or in the streets.”
Defense attorney Ryan Pacyga said that he was surprised by the prosecution’s high bail request, particularly considering that Noor voluntarily turned himself in and has ties to the community.
He also scoffed at the prosecution’s depiction of Noor as a danger to the public, pointing out that his alleged crime was committed in the course of his duties as a police officer — a profession that is authorized to use deadly force if lives are in imminent danger. “The point is that we’re not talking about some madman, even under the government’s version of this case, that poses some particular danger to the community out there,” Pacyga said.
Jeronimo Yanez, the only other Minnesota officer in recent history charged in an on-duty shooting, was released on his own recognizance. A jury last summer cleared Yanez of any criminal wrongdoing in the shooting death of Philando Castile during a traffic stop in Falcon Heights.
About a month after that verdict, Damond was killed in Minneapolis.
Messages left for Noor’s father went unreturned on Wednesday.
The Somali-American Police Association broke its months long silence on Wednesday, saying in a statement that it was “saddened” by what it called politically and possibly racially motivated charges.
“We believe Freeman is more interested in furthering his political agenda than he is in the facts surrounding this case,” the statement read. “The charges brought against Officer Noor are not intended to serve justice; rather, they are meant to make an ‘example’ of him.”
An MPD spokeswoman on Wednesday confirmed that an internal probe into the incident was ongoing, but otherwise declined to comment.
Lt. Bob Kroll said claims that Noor plotted to leave the country were news to him.
“He was on administrative leave so he had daily check-ins with [Internal Affairs], I believe,” said Kroll, president of the Minneapolis Police Federation, the union that represents the department’s roughly 880 sworn police officers.
He said they will likely file a grievance on Noor’s behalf to challenge the firing, which is standard practice in disciplinary cases. He said that he wasn’t entirely surprised by the department’s decision to fire Noor, who had been on paid administrative leave since the shooting. “I understand when you’ve got a person facing those charges, there’s a lot of pressure for the administration to get that person off the table, given the public outcry,” he said.
The union has come under fire from critics from both within the department and outside its ranks for not publicly defending Noor.
Noor, who joined the department three years ago, is named in a brutality lawsuit wending its way through federal court. Earlier this month, a judge in that case ruled that an attorney for the woman suing Noor along with another Minneapolis cop and the department was not allowed to ask questions about the Damond shooting.
"Sometimes the only victory possible is to keep your opponent from winning." - The Emperor, from The Outcast Dead.
"Tell your gods we are coming for them, and that their realms will burn as ours did." -Thostos Bladestorm
Police followed in pursuit, and Clark allegedly turned toward them and began advancing toward them “while holding an object which was extended in front of him.” Believing that object to be a gun and saying that they feared for their lives, officers fired at Clark multiple times. They then held their position for about five minutes, according to the press release, until more officers arrived before approaching Clark, handcuffing him and beginning lifesaving efforts.
According to Sacramento Bee reporter Anita Chabria, the officers fired at Clark 20 times. Fire Department personnel pronounced Clark dead at the scene.
In an updated press release, Sacramento police said that there was no firearm located at the scene of the shooting, contrary to what officers said they thought when they shot at Clark 20 times. They only found his cellphone.
Both of the officers involved in the shooting were wearing body cameras, and there is additional audio and video footage from the sheriff’s helicopter, officials said. Police said that material is being prepared to be released to the public.
The officers involved in the shooting have been placed on paid leave.
2018/03/23 00:00:13
Subject: Re:Unarmed Woman shot by Minnesota Police
nels1031 wrote: Also, not sure I agree with the comments from the Somali-America Police Association in this article.
Yeah, those comments are atrocious. This isn't a racial issue, this is about a cop blindly discharging his gun across from his partner, in a vehicle, because he was spooked by a sound. The Somali-American Police Association should be ashamed of trying to play the race card here.
2018/03/23 00:08:22
Subject: Re:Unarmed Woman shot by Minnesota Police
nels1031 wrote: Also, not sure I agree with the comments from the Somali-America Police Association in this article.
Yeah, those comments are atrocious. This isn't a racial issue, this is about a cop blindly discharging his gun across from his partner, in a vehicle, because he was spooked by a sound. The Somali-American Police Association should be ashamed of trying to play the race card here.
The situation itself(I don't think he killed her because she was white) might not have been a racial issue but the fact that: a) People tried to claim that he was fleeing/had fled the country, including the prosecution claiming that they "heard from a witness that he had offered to hide Noor out". b) Had to pay bail vs similar situations where officers were released on their own recognizance c) Had a sealed warrant issued for his arrest, including attempts to apparently paint him as a dangerous individual.
That all is relevant to it being "racially and politically motivated charges". Guy surrendered himself and has been actively cooperating with investigators.
Regarding the brutality lawsuit, I'd not be surprised if it was an attempted fishing expedition. There was a lot of talk from a certain sector about how Noor acted "out of his beliefs".
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/23 00:08:48
2018/03/23 03:07:44
Subject: Re:Unarmed Woman shot by Minnesota Police
nels1031 wrote: Also, not sure I agree with the comments from the Somali-America Police Association in this article.
Yeah, those comments are atrocious. This isn't a racial issue, this is about a cop blindly discharging his gun across from his partner, in a vehicle, because he was spooked by a sound. The Somali-American Police Association should be ashamed of trying to play the race card here.
The situation itself(I don't think he killed her because she was white) might not have been a racial issue but the fact that:
a) People tried to claim that he was fleeing/had fled the country, including the prosecution claiming that they "heard from a witness that he had offered to hide Noor out".
b) Had to pay bail vs similar situations where officers were released on their own recognizance
c) Had a sealed warrant issued for his arrest, including attempts to apparently paint him as a dangerous individual.
That all is relevant to it being "racially and politically motivated charges". Guy surrendered himself and has been actively cooperating with investigators.
Fair points, there does seem to be an agenda painted by the prosecution that is racial.
Still, this guy did execute a person. I think he is dangerous, and I don't necessarily think the bail being set at $400,000-500,000 is outrageous given the circumstances. What is outrageous is other police officers not having similar bails set when they are being tried for manslaughter. I'll concede that is racial in this case, but I think consideration has to also be given to the complete failure of our legal system to properly hold police accountable when they break the law. That other officers got off lighter sucks for Noor, but I am only so sympathetic towards another murdering cop. If that is "making an example" out of Noor, it seems a poor choice if that example is an attempt to placate a public growing increasingly furious with police brutality. Making an example of the black guy who killed a white woman isn't good optics. Not saying that isn't happening, because our country is teeming with racism, but I just don't buy the defense's narrative that the charges are only racially motivated. I think Noor was a gak cop who killed a foreign national for absolutely no reason and that deserves to get dealt with harshly.
This quote in particular from nels1031's article is infuriating and approaches the issue I have with the scrutiny Noor is facing:
He also scoffed at the prosecution’s depiction of Noor as a danger to the public, pointing out that his alleged crime was committed in the course of his duties as a police officer — a profession that is authorized to use deadly force if lives are in imminent danger. “The point is that we’re not talking about some madman, even under the government’s version of this case, that poses some particular danger to the community out there,” Pacyga said
Bullgak. Noor was a danger to the community when he killed Diamond. He shouldn't get special consideration because he was a police officer, I don't care how much or how little he is cooperating. What he did wasn't an accident, it was deliberate and done potentially out of fear which further proves how dangerous he was. A jumpy guy with a gun shouldn't be allowed on the streets.
Kanluwen wrote: Regarding the brutality lawsuit, I'd not be surprised if it was an attempted fishing expedition. There was a lot of talk from a certain sector about how Noor acted "out of his beliefs".
Sorry, not following here.
2018/03/23 03:17:44
Subject: Re:Unarmed Woman shot by Minnesota Police
It is unfortunate that the one time they take murder by a police officer seriously it involved a black cop killing a white person. Whilst I’m happy to see justice actually happening, it’s cold comfort to all those black people executed for little to no reason by non black cops. And it sadly seems to confirm that black lives do matter less in America.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/23 03:18:48
2018/03/23 06:30:12
Subject: Re:Unarmed Woman shot by Minnesota Police
Future War Cultist wrote: It is unfortunate that the one time they take murder by a police officer seriously it involved a black cop killing a white person. Whilst I’m happy to see justice actually happening, it’s cold comfort to all those black people executed for little to no reason by non black cops. And it sadly seems to confirm that black lives do matter less in America.
I think this is what the whole thing is really about. Setting fairness and the matters of the case aside, it just looks bad especially when you put the progress of this prosecution alongside that of Yanez from the same state.
Future War Cultist wrote: It is unfortunate that the one time they take murder by a police officer seriously it involved a black cop killing a white person. Whilst I’m happy to see justice actually happening, it’s cold comfort to all those black people executed for little to no reason by non black cops. And it sadly seems to confirm that black lives do matter less in America.
Michal Slager, white.
Garret Miller*, white.
Edward Nero*, white.
Brian Rice*, white.
Cesaer Goodson*, black.
William Porter*, black.
Alicia White*, black.
Jason Blackwelder, white.
Randy Trent Harrison, white.
David Harmon-Wright, white.
Scott Smith, white.
Joseph Mantelli, white.
Johannes Mehserle, white.
*Same case, Freddie Gray Death.
That list is by no means exhaustive, but if you pay attention cops do get charged for on duty deaths. Something close to 5+ a year from what I read in a WSJ article a year or two ago. The initial deaths and the media circus following an OIS is much more of a ratings grab then the boring judicial proceedings that happen a year or two down the road and they usually only get cursory coverage from the media, placating the attention spans of the broader public.
Now wether they end up convicted in court or are convicted only receive an outrageously lenient sentence, thats another thing. But the narrative that this officer is only being charged because he’s non-white and the victim white is ridiculous. Alex Jone level conspiracy garbage.
Just look at the facts. Dude never had his body cam on(not required by local procedure in this scenario, but still...) never had a clear view of the vic, dude discharged his firearm at least once inside his vehicle, shooting over or across his partner, seemingly instantly and with no apparent warning. I’m usually one of the few defenders of police in these types of threads when they pop up in the OT, but even this one gives me pause.
With that said, this shooter walks. There seems to be some tomfoolery in his hiring and training and I think the defense will play that up, along with the race issue. Not defending the dude, I just think he’ll never see any of the corners of the Monopolly board for a few reasons. Wouldn’t be upset if I was wrong, though!
"Sometimes the only victory possible is to keep your opponent from winning." - The Emperor, from The Outcast Dead.
"Tell your gods we are coming for them, and that their realms will burn as ours did." -Thostos Bladestorm
2018/03/23 13:56:05
Subject: Re:Unarmed Woman shot by Minnesota Police
Fair points, there does seem to be an agenda painted by the prosecution that is racial.
Still, this guy did execute a person. I think he is dangerous, and I don't necessarily think the bail being set at $400,000-500,000 is outrageous given the circumstances. What is outrageous is other police officers not having similar bails set when they are being tried for manslaughter. I'll concede that is racial in this case, but I think consideration has to also be given to the complete failure of our legal system to properly hold police accountable when they break the law. That other officers got off lighter sucks for Noor, but I am only so sympathetic towards another murdering cop. If that is "making an example" out of Noor, it seems a poor choice if that example is an attempt to placate a public growing increasingly furious with police brutality. Making an example of the black guy who killed a white woman isn't good optics. Not saying that isn't happening, because our country is teeming with racism, but I just don't buy the defense's narrative that the charges are only racially motivated. I think Noor was a gak cop who killed a foreign national for absolutely no reason and that deserves to get dealt with harshly.
Which doesn't really have much to do with this being an example of "officer committing murder". Be careful tossing that term around as it requires malice aforethought for murder to be the appropriate charge.
This quote in particular from nels1031's article is infuriating and approaches the issue I have with the scrutiny Noor is facing:
He also scoffed at the prosecution’s depiction of Noor as a danger to the public, pointing out that his alleged crime was committed in the course of his duties as a police officer — a profession that is authorized to use deadly force if lives are in imminent danger. “The point is that we’re not talking about some madman, even under the government’s version of this case, that poses some particular danger to the community out there,” Pacyga said
Bullgak. Noor was a danger to the community when he killed Diamond. He shouldn't get special consideration because he was a police officer, I don't care how much or how little he is cooperating. What he did wasn't an accident, it was deliberate and done potentially out of fear which further proves how dangerous he was. A jumpy guy with a gun shouldn't be allowed on the streets.
And this is where something else regarding scrutiny will come into play in the next part.
That said, there's a big difference between him being "a danger to the public" and him "not being a good fit as a police officer".
Once he was put on paid leave(whether or not you deem it appropriate; I think in a situation like this it should have been unpaid leave...) and required to surrender his firearms and ammunition to the department? He effectively ceases to be "a danger to the public".
It sucks that Diamond's dead but if it truly is a case of him "being a jump guy with a gun", then christ we need to start taking guns out of the hands of police and private owners ASAP.
Kanluwen wrote: Regarding the brutality lawsuit, I'd not be surprised if it was an attempted fishing expedition. There was a lot of talk from a certain sector about how Noor acted "out of his beliefs".
Sorry, not following here.
There's been a lot of talk from the usual "rabble rabble rabble Muslims takin' our freedomz" crowd that Noor shot Diamond because she presented something that "violated his Muslim beliefs". It's bullgak of course, but it doesn't stop them from being able to claim such a thing exists.
When cases go to court against police officers, there tends to be people with charges/arrests from those officers to attempt to get their own stuff voided.
2018/03/23 14:02:35
Subject: Re:Unarmed Woman shot by Minnesota Police
Future War Cultist wrote: It is unfortunate that the one time they take murder by a police officer seriously it involved a black cop killing a white person. Whilst I’m happy to see justice actually happening, it’s cold comfort to all those black people executed for little to no reason by non black cops. And it sadly seems to confirm that black lives do matter less in America.
I think this is what the whole thing is really about. Setting fairness and the matters of the case aside, it just looks bad especially when you put the progress of this prosecution alongside that of Yanez from the same state.
The demographics of the victim definitely makes this shooting look worse but I think it's telling that the exact same defense gets trotted out. Police work is a dangerous job so in any kind of ambiguous situation the police need to shoot first to protect themselves. If the victim in this instance had been a black man that narrative would play on stereotypes and preconceptions, the black man could have been the perpetrator of what might have been a sexual assault, he might have been armed and hostile, the cops couldn't know if he was a threat and waiting to find out would be too dangerous they had to shoot him. Of course this time it wasn't a black man who called 9/11 to report a possible crime and then waited outside for 15 minutes for the police to arrive it was a female blonde Australian yoga instructor in a bathrobe so the defense that residential neighborhoods in Minneapolis are so dangerous that cops need to draw their duty weapons, chamber a round and hold it in their laps ready to send a round downrange inches in front of their partner's face through the car window into the first unidentified person that approaches their car seem incredibly stupid and unsupportable. The police were called to a residential neighborhood to investigate a suspicious noise that was heard 15 minutes ago, that doesn't justify rolling up into the neighborhood with guns drawn prepared to kill somebody. America isn't that dangerous of a place, it is not reasonable by any stretch of the imagination to believe that investigating a possible scream of distress in that neighborhood should cause the responding police to anticipate having to repel a murderous ambush.
Future War Cultist wrote: It is unfortunate that the one time they take murder by a police officer seriously it involved a black cop killing a white person. Whilst I’m happy to see justice actually happening, it’s cold comfort to all those black people executed for little to no reason by non black cops. And it sadly seems to confirm that black lives do matter less in America.
Michal Slager, white.
Garret Miller*, white.
Edward Nero*, white.
Brian Rice*, white.
Cesaer Goodson*, black.
William Porter*, black.
Alicia White*, black.
Jason Blackwelder, white.
Randy Trent Harrison, white.
David Harmon-Wright, white.
Scott Smith, white.
Joseph Mantelli, white.
Johannes Mehserle, white.
*Same case, Freddie Gray Death.
That list is by no means exhaustive, but if you pay attention cops do get charged for on duty deaths. Something close to 5+ a year from what I read in a WSJ article a year or two ago. The initial deaths and the media circus following an OIS is much more of a ratings grab then the boring judicial proceedings that happen a year or two down the road and they usually only get cursory coverage from the media, placating the attention spans of the broader public.
Now wether they end up convicted in court or are convicted only receive an outrageously lenient sentence, thats another thing. But the narrative that this officer is only being charged because he’s non-white and the victim white is ridiculous. Alex Jone level conspiracy garbage.
It really isn't though. The simple fact is that while charges in and of themselves being filed is one thing that happens, there's a ton of hinky crap happening here. You can choose to ignore "the narrative" but how many white officers have we seen killing people getting heavy bail sentences and forced to surrender passports and firearms?
Just look at the facts. Dude never had his body cam on(not required by local procedure in this scenario, but still...) never had a clear view of the vic, dude discharged his firearm at least once inside his vehicle, shooting over or across his partner, seemingly instantly and with no apparent warning. I’m usually one of the few defenders of police in these types of threads when they pop up in the OT, but even this one gives me pause.
Plenty of people "defend the police" in situations like this. This shoot is probably a pretty crummy one certainly, but it's no different than the Freddie Gray bullgak and those officers walked.
With that said, this shooter walks. There seems to be some tomfoolery in his hiring and training and I think the defense will play that up, along with the race issue. Not defending the dude, I just think he’ll never see any of the corners of the Monopolly board for a few reasons. Wouldn’t be upset if I was wrong, though!
And they damned well should "play that up" when it comes to the race issue. Prosecution claimed they had a witness that offered to hide Noor after they were called out for claiming that he had fled the country.
It's an insinuation that because he's Muslim and an immigrant that he can escape justice. The prosecutor should be disbarred at the very least and his whole damned office investigated heavily.
2018/03/23 14:08:25
Subject: Re:Unarmed Woman shot by Minnesota Police
Fair points, there does seem to be an agenda painted by the prosecution that is racial.
Still, this guy did execute a person. I think he is dangerous, and I don't necessarily think the bail being set at $400,000-500,000 is outrageous given the circumstances. What is outrageous is other police officers not having similar bails set when they are being tried for manslaughter. I'll concede that is racial in this case, but I think consideration has to also be given to the complete failure of our legal system to properly hold police accountable when they break the law. That other officers got off lighter sucks for Noor, but I am only so sympathetic towards another murdering cop. If that is "making an example" out of Noor, it seems a poor choice if that example is an attempt to placate a public growing increasingly furious with police brutality. Making an example of the black guy who killed a white woman isn't good optics. Not saying that isn't happening, because our country is teeming with racism, but I just don't buy the defense's narrative that the charges are only racially motivated. I think Noor was a gak cop who killed a foreign national for absolutely no reason and that deserves to get dealt with harshly.
Which doesn't really have much to do with this being an example of "officer committing murder". Be careful tossing that term around as it requires malice aforethought for murder to be the appropriate charge.
This quote in particular from nels1031's article is infuriating and approaches the issue I have with the scrutiny Noor is facing:
He also scoffed at the prosecution’s depiction of Noor as a danger to the public, pointing out that his alleged crime was committed in the course of his duties as a police officer — a profession that is authorized to use deadly force if lives are in imminent danger. “The point is that we’re not talking about some madman, even under the government’s version of this case, that poses some particular danger to the community out there,” Pacyga said
Bullgak. Noor was a danger to the community when he killed Diamond. He shouldn't get special consideration because he was a police officer, I don't care how much or how little he is cooperating. What he did wasn't an accident, it was deliberate and done potentially out of fear which further proves how dangerous he was. A jumpy guy with a gun shouldn't be allowed on the streets.
And this is where something else regarding scrutiny will come into play in the next part.
That said, there's a big difference between him being "a danger to the public" and him "not being a good fit as a police officer".
Once he was put on paid leave(whether or not you deem it appropriate; I think in a situation like this it should have been unpaid leave...) and required to surrender his firearms and ammunition to the department? He effectively ceases to be "a danger to the public".
It sucks that Diamond's dead but if it truly is a case of him "being a jump guy with a gun", then christ we need to start taking guns out of the hands of police and private owners ASAP.
What? That's a complete nonsequitor here. What do legally armed citizens have to do with a jumpy cop violating safety procedures while on patrol and shooting at someone he hadn't even identified and therefore couldn't make a reasonable threat assessment before escalating to using lethal force? We might have discovered a bad apple so we better hurry up and get rid of the oranges?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/23 14:09:31
Mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
2018/03/23 14:19:29
Subject: Re:Unarmed Woman shot by Minnesota Police
Fair points, there does seem to be an agenda painted by the prosecution that is racial.
Still, this guy did execute a person. I think he is dangerous, and I don't necessarily think the bail being set at $400,000-500,000 is outrageous given the circumstances. What is outrageous is other police officers not having similar bails set when they are being tried for manslaughter. I'll concede that is racial in this case, but I think consideration has to also be given to the complete failure of our legal system to properly hold police accountable when they break the law. That other officers got off lighter sucks for Noor, but I am only so sympathetic towards another murdering cop. If that is "making an example" out of Noor, it seems a poor choice if that example is an attempt to placate a public growing increasingly furious with police brutality. Making an example of the black guy who killed a white woman isn't good optics. Not saying that isn't happening, because our country is teeming with racism, but I just don't buy the defense's narrative that the charges are only racially motivated. I think Noor was a gak cop who killed a foreign national for absolutely no reason and that deserves to get dealt with harshly.
Which doesn't really have much to do with this being an example of "officer committing murder". Be careful tossing that term around as it requires malice aforethought for murder to be the appropriate charge.
This quote in particular from nels1031's article is infuriating and approaches the issue I have with the scrutiny Noor is facing:
He also scoffed at the prosecution’s depiction of Noor as a danger to the public, pointing out that his alleged crime was committed in the course of his duties as a police officer — a profession that is authorized to use deadly force if lives are in imminent danger. “The point is that we’re not talking about some madman, even under the government’s version of this case, that poses some particular danger to the community out there,” Pacyga said
Bullgak. Noor was a danger to the community when he killed Diamond. He shouldn't get special consideration because he was a police officer, I don't care how much or how little he is cooperating. What he did wasn't an accident, it was deliberate and done potentially out of fear which further proves how dangerous he was. A jumpy guy with a gun shouldn't be allowed on the streets.
And this is where something else regarding scrutiny will come into play in the next part.
That said, there's a big difference between him being "a danger to the public" and him "not being a good fit as a police officer". Once he was put on paid leave(whether or not you deem it appropriate; I think in a situation like this it should have been unpaid leave...) and required to surrender his firearms and ammunition to the department? He effectively ceases to be "a danger to the public".
It sucks that Diamond's dead but if it truly is a case of him "being a jump guy with a gun", then christ we need to start taking guns out of the hands of police and private owners ASAP.
What? That's a complete nonsequitor here. What do legally armed citizens have to do with a jumpy cop violating safety procedures while on patrol and shooting at someone he hadn't even identified and therefore couldn't make a reasonable threat assessment before escalating to using lethal force? We might have discovered a bad apple so we better hurry up and get rid of the oranges?
I mean, you could have actually read rather than thrown a kneejerk comment after seeing something about guns.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/23 14:20:17
2018/03/23 15:39:55
Subject: Re:Unarmed Woman shot by Minnesota Police
Fair points, there does seem to be an agenda painted by the prosecution that is racial.
Still, this guy did execute a person. I think he is dangerous, and I don't necessarily think the bail being set at $400,000-500,000 is outrageous given the circumstances. What is outrageous is other police officers not having similar bails set when they are being tried for manslaughter. I'll concede that is racial in this case, but I think consideration has to also be given to the complete failure of our legal system to properly hold police accountable when they break the law. That other officers got off lighter sucks for Noor, but I am only so sympathetic towards another murdering cop. If that is "making an example" out of Noor, it seems a poor choice if that example is an attempt to placate a public growing increasingly furious with police brutality. Making an example of the black guy who killed a white woman isn't good optics. Not saying that isn't happening, because our country is teeming with racism, but I just don't buy the defense's narrative that the charges are only racially motivated. I think Noor was a gak cop who killed a foreign national for absolutely no reason and that deserves to get dealt with harshly.
Which doesn't really have much to do with this being an example of "officer committing murder". Be careful tossing that term around as it requires malice aforethought for murder to be the appropriate charge.
This quote in particular from nels1031's article is infuriating and approaches the issue I have with the scrutiny Noor is facing:
He also scoffed at the prosecution’s depiction of Noor as a danger to the public, pointing out that his alleged crime was committed in the course of his duties as a police officer — a profession that is authorized to use deadly force if lives are in imminent danger. “The point is that we’re not talking about some madman, even under the government’s version of this case, that poses some particular danger to the community out there,” Pacyga said
Bullgak. Noor was a danger to the community when he killed Diamond. He shouldn't get special consideration because he was a police officer, I don't care how much or how little he is cooperating. What he did wasn't an accident, it was deliberate and done potentially out of fear which further proves how dangerous he was. A jumpy guy with a gun shouldn't be allowed on the streets.
And this is where something else regarding scrutiny will come into play in the next part.
That said, there's a big difference between him being "a danger to the public" and him "not being a good fit as a police officer".
Once he was put on paid leave(whether or not you deem it appropriate; I think in a situation like this it should have been unpaid leave...) and required to surrender his firearms and ammunition to the department? He effectively ceases to be "a danger to the public".
It sucks that Diamond's dead but if it truly is a case of him "being a jump guy with a gun", then christ we need to start taking guns out of the hands of police and private owners ASAP.
What? That's a complete nonsequitor here. What do legally armed citizens have to do with a jumpy cop violating safety procedures while on patrol and shooting at someone he hadn't even identified and therefore couldn't make a reasonable threat assessment before escalating to using lethal force? We might have discovered a bad apple so we better hurry up and get rid of the oranges?
I mean, you could have actually read rather than thrown a kneejerk comment after seeing something about guns.
What part of you post do you think I didn't read? Rolling up to investigate a possible scream of distress with your gun drawn, a round chambered and holding it in your lap ready to fire at the first person who moves towards you is pretty much the definition of a jumpy guy with a gun. Noor was clearly a danger to the public because his actions clearly demonstrated that he viewed the public as an imminent threat to himself and used that presumptive threat as justification to push the escalation of force directly to the lethal level on routine patrol calls. I still don't see why you would go to hyperbolic extremes about disarming police and other citizens based on the irresponsible actions of one particular individual or why you'd rather respond with trying to deflect with snarky insults instead of clarifying your point.
Mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
2018/03/23 16:03:59
Subject: Re:Unarmed Woman shot by Minnesota Police
What part of you post do you think I didn't read? Rolling up to investigate a possible scream of distress with your gun drawn, a round chambered and holding it in your lap ready to fire at the first person who moves towards you is pretty much the definition of a jumpy guy with a gun. Noor was clearly a danger to the public because his actions clearly demonstrated that he viewed the public as an imminent threat to himself and used that presumptive threat as justification to push the escalation of force directly to the lethal level on routine patrol calls. I still don't see why you would go to hyperbolic extremes about disarming police and other citizens based on the irresponsible actions of one particular individual or why you'd rather respond with trying to deflect with snarky insults instead of clarifying your point.
The part where you literally didn't read his comment about how "a jumpy guy with a gun shouldn't be allowed on the streets"? We've had plenty of examples of "law-abiding citizens" and police being just as jumpy or irresponsible with firearms, yet we're making it a big deal now?
And you're making a big deal over a snarky comment in a thread that actually has had fairly tame discussion?
2018/03/23 16:27:54
Subject: Re:Unarmed Woman shot by Minnesota Police
What part of you post do you think I didn't read? Rolling up to investigate a possible scream of distress with your gun drawn, a round chambered and holding it in your lap ready to fire at the first person who moves towards you is pretty much the definition of a jumpy guy with a gun. Noor was clearly a danger to the public because his actions clearly demonstrated that he viewed the public as an imminent threat to himself and used that presumptive threat as justification to push the escalation of force directly to the lethal level on routine patrol calls. I still don't see why you would go to hyperbolic extremes about disarming police and other citizens based on the irresponsible actions of one particular individual or why you'd rather respond with trying to deflect with snarky insults instead of clarifying your point.
The part where you literally didn't read his comment about how "a jumpy guy with a gun shouldn't be allowed on the streets"? We've had plenty of examples of "law-abiding citizens" and police being just as jumpy or irresponsible with firearms, yet we're making it a big deal now?
And you're making a big deal over a snarky comment in a thread that actually has had fairly tame discussion?
Law abiding citizens who shoot people without the justification of a reasonable threat of imminent harm go to prison for murder. I'm not making a big deal about it, I asked you to refrain from that kind of hyperbolic snark so we can avoid a derailment.
We've been making a big deal about jumpy cops and people with a gun committing unjustifiable shootings for a while now. This morning when I checked ESPN for NCAA basketball scores I found out that a protest over a cop shooting an unarmed black man was held outside the Sacramento Kings' arena and delayed the game for 20 minutes.
Now you're handwaving away all the protests, riots and national coverage of police shootings and killings because it's not as big of a deal as the death of Diamond even though her death has sparked far less protests/marches/riots and coverage than the deaths of black people during police encounters.
Post what you want but I think you're overdoing the snarkiness.
Mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
2018/03/23 18:58:19
Subject: Re:Unarmed Woman shot by Minnesota Police
Prestor Jon wrote: Of course this time it wasn't a black man who called 9/11 to report a possible crime and then waited outside for 15 minutes for the police to arrive it was a female blonde Australian yoga instructor in a bathrobe so the defense that residential neighborhoods in Minneapolis are so dangerous that cops need to draw their duty weapons, chamber a round and hold it in their laps ready to send a round downrange inches in front of their partner's face through the car window into the first unidentified person that approaches their car seem incredibly stupid and unsupportable. The police were called to a residential neighborhood to investigate a suspicious noise that was heard 15 minutes ago, that doesn't justify rolling up into the neighborhood with guns drawn prepared to kill somebody. America isn't that dangerous of a place, it is not reasonable by any stretch of the imagination to believe that investigating a possible scream of distress in that neighborhood should cause the responding police to anticipate having to repel a murderous ambush.
It does look rather bad when you take that into account, but I've called the emergency services enough times that I know there can be incorrect assumptions just between me and the operator. Then add in at least one other relay (if the operator contacts the cops directly) or more if the open assignment goes to a police controller first. Even if the caller stressed that she's not sure and not too worried yet that part might have been left out when the assignment reached the patrol. Jumpy guy with a gun anyway, ofc.
But it would be interesting to see a transcript of the 911 call and the assignment given to the patrol.
2018/03/24 15:40:38
Subject: Re:Unarmed Woman shot by Minnesota Police
Prestor Jon wrote: Of course this time it wasn't a black man who called 9/11 to report a possible crime and then waited outside for 15 minutes for the police to arrive it was a female blonde Australian yoga instructor in a bathrobe so the defense that residential neighborhoods in Minneapolis are so dangerous that cops need to draw their duty weapons, chamber a round and hold it in their laps ready to send a round downrange inches in front of their partner's face through the car window into the first unidentified person that approaches their car seem incredibly stupid and unsupportable. The police were called to a residential neighborhood to investigate a suspicious noise that was heard 15 minutes ago, that doesn't justify rolling up into the neighborhood with guns drawn prepared to kill somebody. America isn't that dangerous of a place, it is not reasonable by any stretch of the imagination to believe that investigating a possible scream of distress in that neighborhood should cause the responding police to anticipate having to repel a murderous ambush.
It does look rather bad when you take that into account, but I've called the emergency services enough times that I know there can be incorrect assumptions just between me and the operator. Then add in at least one other relay (if the operator contacts the cops directly) or more if the open assignment goes to a police controller first. Even if the caller stressed that she's not sure and not too worried yet that part might have been left out when the assignment reached the patrol. Jumpy guy with a gun anyway, ofc.
But it would be interesting to see a transcript of the 911 call and the assignment given to the patrol.
Regardless of the transcript I think the trial is going to show that Noor broke a lot of dept procedures and used lethal force without justification.
It’s not proper procedure for the police to do drive by shootings. I strongly doubt that Noor was trained to draw his duty weapon and hold the loaded pistol in his lap while on patrol so he could snap fire through an open window.
Shooting through the opposite car window with the bullet passing with inches in front of his partners face and body isn’t likely something that Noor was taught to do in his training. In a life threatening emergency situation such a safety violation would be justified but shooting at an unidentified target doesn’t meet that threshold.
That’s the final catch 22 for Noor, he shot somebody before he could accurately identify them or their intent. If Noor couldn’t identify who was approaching the car and what he/she intended then how did he determine that the person posed a reasonable threat of bodily harm that requires the use of lethal force? If Noor was able to identify the person as a woman in a bathrobe, even if he couldn’t identify that she was holding a cellphone and didn’t know she was the person who called 9/11, Noor still needs to explain why it’s reasonable to decide that a woman in a bathrobe approaching the police car even one holding an unidentified object in her hand needs to shot on sight.
Unlike other cases I think it’s going to be very difficult for Noor to show that his process was correct. That’s what gets other officers in shootings acquitted, they follow the correct process/SOP up to the moment when an object or a movement occurs that could be interpretsted in a snap judgment to possibly be a weapon or reaching for a weapon so the officers shoot, the other person dies and the outcome is that person wasn’t armed. The outcome of a dead unarmed citizen who wasn’t as dangerous as he/she was perceived is bad but the process leading up to that death shields the officer from the negative outcome. If the person did have a weapon to reach for or the object was a weapon and the cops hesitate they could get hurt or killed so they shoot first and if they’re wrong but followed procedure it’s unlikely that they get convicted of a crime.
Mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
2018/03/27 07:25:47
Subject: Re:Unarmed Woman shot by Minnesota Police
The Somali-American Police Association seems an awfully specific group to have its own association. I looked up their webpage but I couldn't see anything that even hinted at membership numbers. It is based in Minneapolis, though, same as Noor. Maybe Noor is the whole of the Somali-American Police Association? That would explain their outspoken support for him.
Anyhow, I think the police firing Noor was wrong, and almost certainly a response to political pressure. They could have suspended Noor without pay until the conclusion of the trial, so as not to give any indication to a jury as their own opinion of the event. Really, suspension without pay should be standard in shootings (if an officer is acquitted then backpay could be given).
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
2018/03/27 09:02:22
Subject: Re:Unarmed Woman shot by Minnesota Police
sebster wrote: T They could have suspended Noor without pay until the conclusion of the trial, so as not to give any indication to a jury as their own opinion of the event. Really, suspension without pay should be standard in shootings (if an officer is acquitted then backpay could be given).
It can take a year or more to get to and then through a trial. Most cops are gonna lose their house, car, and likely family trying to make it that long without pay. If the shoot looks 'good' from the police internal affairs review, no reason to feth over the cop in that way. If the shoot looks bad, may as well fire him and let him deal with the consequences.
Every time a terrorist dies a Paratrooper gets his wings.
There is a difference between an administrative finding that you violated polity, and a criminal verdict that you didn’t break the law beyond a reasonable doubt.
d-usa wrote: There is a difference between an administrative finding that you violated polity, and a criminal verdict that you didn’t break the law beyond a reasonable doubt.
Exactly. An internal review can show that an employee violated company policy/conditions of employment to the extent that the employee should be fired regardless of whether or not any crime was committed. In this instance Noor could have been found to have acted in a manner that warranted his termination from the police force regardless of whether or not criminal charges were filed or the outcome of any prosecution. In general I think it's fair to put cops on paid leave while an internal investigation is conducted and determine any punishment once the internal investigation is concluded. Criminal proceedings really shouldn't factor into it.
Mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
2018/03/27 17:19:13
Subject: Re:Unarmed Woman shot by Minnesota Police
sebster wrote: The Somali-American Police Association seems an awfully specific group to have its own association. I looked up their webpage but I couldn't see anything that even hinted at membership numbers. It is based in Minneapolis, though, same as Noor. Maybe Noor is the whole of the Somali-American Police Association? That would explain their outspoken support for him.
Anyhow, I think the police firing Noor was wrong, and almost certainly a response to political pressure. They could have suspended Noor without pay until the conclusion of the trial, so as not to give any indication to a jury as their own opinion of the event. Really, suspension without pay should be standard in shootings (if an officer is acquitted then backpay could be given).
We actually have a pretty large Somali population in Minnesota. However, I think there are only a handful of somali police officers.
Here is some more about the organization and it has member sin different cities as well.
CptJake wrote: It can take a year or more to get to and then through a trial. Most cops are gonna lose their house, car, and likely family trying to make it that long without pay. If the shoot looks 'good' from the police internal affairs review, no reason to feth over the cop in that way. If the shoot looks bad, may as well fire him and let him deal with the consequences.
I understand the logic, but think it has serious ramifications for internal police reviews impacting on jury decisions.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Easy E wrote: We actually have a pretty large Somali population in Minnesota. However, I think there are only a handful of somali police officers.
Here is some more about the organization and it has member sin different cities as well.
I wondered if it might be something like that, but thought it was funnier to think of the organization as just Noor by himself
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/28 09:08:52
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
