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 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Confirmation that Regular Space Marines can't ride in a Repulsor. Also, Aggressors lack AP on everything but their fists. That is pretty lame.



They have no AP, but they get 24 shots per Marine if they stand still, thats 144 Shots for a full squad, not including the Frag Launchers. They get those 144 Shots, when firing on overwatch.
   
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I suspect they won't get to fire twice on Overwatch if they stand still (as that seems pretty terribly broken), but if they haven't worded it correctly, people will do that. It is an absurd amount of shots, regardless of the lack of save modifiers.
   
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 Elbows wrote:
I suspect they won't get to fire twice on Overwatch if they stand still (as that seems pretty terribly broken), but if they haven't worded it correctly, people will do that. It is an absurd amount of shots, regardless of the lack of save modifiers.
It specifically says that they can fire twice during Overwatch. And their Flamers are 2d6 shots. They will wreck anything that charges them.

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It says on their entry it counts for Overwatch. Now imagine if Bolter Drill Strategem works on them.
   
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 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
It says on their entry it counts for Overwatch. Now imagine if Bolter Drill Strategem works on them.
It does. Anything that has the word Bolt in the name is affected (Boltstorm Gauntlets are listed as an example).

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Those guys are gonna be good regardless of AP
   
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Quantity is a quality all on its own etc etc etc.

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 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Those guys are gonna be good regardless of AP
Yeah, I am warming up to them. I just wish that missile launcher was better. Should have been able to fire krak grenades too.

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 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Confirmation that Regular Space Marines can't ride in a Repulsor. Also, Aggressors lack AP on everything but their fists. That is pretty lame.



They have no AP, but they get 24 shots per Marine if they stand still, thats 144 Shots for a full squad, not including the Frag Launchers. They get those 144 Shots, when firing on overwatch.


Looks like it's only 12 shots per marine if they stand still, as they are called "Gauntlets" rather than "Gauntlet". That's still a hefty amount of firepower though.
   
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I can't wait to have my 10-Man Sternguard Squad use Bolter Drill and Masterful Marksmanship for a total of 2 CP. If they are within 15", 20 shots, 6s generate an additional hit. +1 to Wound Rolls (maybe they need an LT nearby for funsies). AP-2. Lots of stuff is going to die to that.

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 JJ wrote:
 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Confirmation that Regular Space Marines can't ride in a Repulsor. Also, Aggressors lack AP on everything but their fists. That is pretty lame.



They have no AP, but they get 24 shots per Marine if they stand still, thats 144 Shots for a full squad, not including the Frag Launchers. They get those 144 Shots, when firing on overwatch.


Looks like it's only 12 shots per marine if they stand still, as they are called "Gauntlets" rather than "Gauntlet". That's still a hefty amount of firepower though.


Nevermind maybe I am wrong

Still 72 shots.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/07/21 16:58:58


 
   
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A Dark Place

Machine Empathy: I can't read those images at all, so I assume it's for 1 unit each time it's played?
Still, a Stormtalon hitting ground units on 2s is pretty nice.
I may just have to get a box of those Aggressors...
I see the Stormhawk is up a power level, really itching to know which point values have changed now.

   
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 Flood wrote:

I see the Stormhawk is up a power level, really itching to know which point values have changed now.
Probably none, or got a reduction.
   
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 Flood wrote:
Machine Empathy: I can't read those images at all, so I assume it's for 1 unit each time it's played?
Still, a Stormtalon hitting ground units on 2s is pretty nice.
I may just have to get a box of those Aggressors...
I see the Stormhawk is up a power level, really itching to know which point values have changed now.


One vehicle


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:


Nevermind maybe I am wrong

Still 72 shots.


Well, it's D6 on the frag, so 9.5 shots each, right? So 57-ish. Very short ranged, but they can run and shoot and punch well.

Best thing about them is CS into squads of 1. Hard to tell if they are 2 or 3 W. And a 3+ save?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/21 17:24:42


 
   
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 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Confirmation that Regular Space Marines can't ride in a Repulsor. Also, Aggressors lack AP on everything but their fists. That is pretty lame.



They have no AP, but they get 24 shots per Marine if they stand still, thats 144 Shots for a full squad, not including the Frag Launchers. They get those 144 Shots, when firing on overwatch.


I think re Agressors we need to revise our thoughts on them, we initally thought they where gonna be the heavy anti armor etc units of the Primaris Marines, this appers to not be the case (unless one of the hellblaster options is a much power powerful plasma gun Primaris Marines seem to lack dedicated anti tank infantry) rather agressors seem to be the premier anti-horde option for Primaris Marines. Agressors are what we're gonna want to use against guard infantry lists etc.

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 Desubot wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Desubot wrote:
 MagicJuggler wrote:
 NorseSig wrote:
 casvalremdeikun wrote:
The relic is better than a Relic Blade. I don't see how it is garbage.


I hate all relics that are simply a better melee weapon. I want something that is a force multiplier or somehow affects more than the model using it. Was not a fan of the Gorgon Chain either. Though my meta forced me into it because i like to win once and a while.


This basically. Sword+1 is bland and boring, especially if every relic is some variation of that or armor+1.

Sometimes it's the oddball items or the ones with odd tactical applications that are the most fun. From the Veil of Darkness to the Astral Grimoire, or (my personal favorite) the Scrolls of Magnus, relics that do something different rather than the same thing + 1 are more memorable!


You guys cant complain

IF got a bolt pistol.

They are all going to be boring it looks like which is fine.

I actually LIKE the Spartean :(
Two damage, ignores cover, AP-1, and can target characters? AND fits the whole Bolt theme? What's not to like?

Nothing not to like at all. though was hoping for a relic boltgun so i could use those master crafted boltgun bits.

Well it does look like the Primarchs Wrath is still there, so that has to count for something. I don't know the stats for it though.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Desubot wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Desubot wrote:
 MagicJuggler wrote:
 NorseSig wrote:
 casvalremdeikun wrote:
The relic is better than a Relic Blade. I don't see how it is garbage.


I hate all relics that are simply a better melee weapon. I want something that is a force multiplier or somehow affects more than the model using it. Was not a fan of the Gorgon Chain either. Though my meta forced me into it because i like to win once and a while.


This basically. Sword+1 is bland and boring, especially if every relic is some variation of that or armor+1.

Sometimes it's the oddball items or the ones with odd tactical applications that are the most fun. From the Veil of Darkness to the Astral Grimoire, or (my personal favorite) the Scrolls of Magnus, relics that do something different rather than the same thing + 1 are more memorable!


You guys cant complain

IF got a bolt pistol.

They are all going to be boring it looks like which is fine.

I actually LIKE the Spartean :(
Two damage, ignores cover, AP-1, and can target characters? AND fits the whole Bolt theme? What's not to like?

Nothing not to like at all. though was hoping for a relic boltgun so i could use those master crafted boltgun bits.

Well it does look like the Primarchs Wrath is still there, so that has to count for something. I don't know the stats for it though.


proably be pretty good given that storm bolters are pretty win this edition

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BrianDavion wrote:
(unless one of the hellblaster options is a much power powerful plasma gun Primaris Marines seem to lack dedicated anti tank infantry

Heavy plasma incinerators are S8 AP -4 D1 and OC for S9 AP-4 D2.

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BrianDavion wrote:

I think re Agressors we need to revise our thoughts on them, we initally thought they where gonna be the heavy anti armor etc units of the Primaris Marines, this appers to not be the case (unless one of the hellblaster options is a much power powerful plasma gun Primaris Marines seem to lack dedicated anti tank infantry) rather agressors seem to be the premier anti-horde option for Primaris Marines. Agressors are what we're gonna want to use against guard infantry lists etc.


Yeah, both options for their Gauntlets seem good vs horde.

And as Prete says;

pretre wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
(unless one of the hellblaster options is a much power powerful plasma gun Primaris Marines seem to lack dedicated anti tank infantry

Heavy plasma incinerators are S8 AP -4 D1 and OC for S9 AP-4 D2.


Heavy Plasma Incinerators will be good vs vehicles.
   
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Ooo agressors seem like a great counter to conscript, brimstone horror, and razorworwing flock spam.

I gotta say I appreciate how the primaris stuff is all lateral and not just marines +1 so far.

Agressors seem to be anti horde while centurions remain anti tank. Revilers and scouts don't occupy the same slot. Intercessors are more individually powerful but arnt flexible like tactical marines who get special and heavy weapons. Repulsor is a gunboat but not a better land raider. Etc.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/21 18:27:33


01001000 01100001 01101001 01101100 00100000 01101111 01110101 01110010 00100000 01001110 01100101 01100011 01110010 01101111 01101110 00100000 01101111 01110110 01100101 01110010 01101100 01101111 01110010 01100100 01110011 00100001  
   
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 buddha wrote:
Ooo agressors seem like a great counter to conscript, brimstone horror, and razorworwing flock spam.

I gotta say I appreciate how the primaris stuff is all lateral and not just marines +1 so far.

Agressors seem to be anti horde while centurions remain anti tank. Revilers and scouts don't occupy the same slot. Intercessors are more individually powerful but arnt flexible like tactical marines who get special and heavy weapons. Repulsor is a gunboat but not a better land raider. Etc.


It feels like the repulsor is stepping on the predators toes a bit. roughly the same amount of shots for the dakka variety, same amount of las cannons for the las pred. but better T and 10 transport cap. i wonder how many points its going to be.

Centurions in dakka mode is close to the agressors i feel. 6 heavy bolter shots and 6 hurricane bolter shots per guy.

the main difference is one gets to ignore cover while the other gets double shots when not moving. and i play IF so the ignore cover is wasted on the centurions :(

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/21 18:40:50


 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Scott-S6 wrote:
And yet another thread is hijacked for Unit to ask for the same advice, receive the same answers and make the same excuses.

Oh my god I'm becoming martel.
Send help!

 
   
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Someone mentioned PL 16. That's around 310-330 points since PL roughly 20 points/PL
   
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 Desubot wrote:
 buddha wrote:
Ooo agressors seem like a great counter to conscript, brimstone horror, and razorworwing flock spam.

I gotta say I appreciate how the primaris stuff is all lateral and not just marines +1 so far.

Agressors seem to be anti horde while centurions remain anti tank. Revilers and scouts don't occupy the same slot. Intercessors are more individually powerful but arnt flexible like tactical marines who get special and heavy weapons. Repulsor is a gunboat but not a better land raider. Etc.


It feels like the repulsor is stepping on the predators toes a bit. roughly the same amount of shots for the dakka variety, same amount of las cannons for the las pred. but better T and 10 transport cap. i wonder how many points its going to be.

Centurions in dakka mode is close to the agressors i feel. 6 heavy bolter shots and 6 hurricane bolter shots per guy.

the main difference is one gets to ignore cover while the other gets double shots when not moving. and i play IF so the ignore cover is wasted on the centurions :(


If you're just going off shots, the Dakka Repulsor has more than the Predator (mind you the Pred does get S7). But the Onslaught Heavy Cannon is 12 Shots vs 2d3, then it can have the twinlinked heavy bolter (so your 6 HB shots), you can put the regular Onslaught Cannon on top for a further 6 shots.

So that alone is 24 S5 AP -1 1 damage shots, then there is all the other weapon systems it can take.

   
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Holy crap...did you guys see the other stuff marines are getting in the IF Chapter Focus article this morning?

So, it looks like the chapter tactics are just the first part of a trinity of awesome and are counterbalanced by their chapter stratagem and warlord trait.

IF:

Tactic: Ignore cover and reroll failed wounds against buildings.
Stratagem: Bolter Drill - Reroll 1's when firing any bolter weapon (I can't find an official source for bolter drill, but this definition has been floating around the internet)
Trait: Friendly IF units in 6" of your warlord that are in cover gain an additional armor bonus of 1 when targeted by weapons with AP -1.

Just...holy crap. My IF list may have just gained an Aegis Defense Line so I know I'll have cover in every game I play.

What do people think the stratagems and traits might be for some of the other chapters?

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The source for bolter drill IIRC was from their livestream.

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 NorseSig wrote:
I am looking at how they can be used. Look at the list I used today. So far it looks like they are quite limited, and ultimately based on current info a low mid tier. The IH ARE at a disadvantage compared to other chapters for the most part.


So I'd just like to point something out: The current info about the IH tends to indicate they have a great deal of synergy with existing powerful space marine lists.

Firstly, the CT makes your infantry harder to kill, and thus better at holding objectives. That's 75% of what most marine armies use infantry for at this point, along with snipers for enemy characters it seems. I highly doubt any of the tactics I've seen so far will change that, so generally the boost is more useful than anything related to dealing damage etc, if we are discussing actual tiers.

Secondly, depending on how the stratagem works, it may apply to flyers as well as tanks. Suddenly stormtalons and stormhawks can move without a firing penalty, which is one of the big draws of the stormraven. Given how popular the stormraven is, that's again a kinda big deal.

So... as far as actual tiers go, IH currently looks like it could benefit the best current marine builds more than any other. Which could change when point costs are adjusted, maybe some of the other tactics are some powerful they end up creating new best builds even (though none of the builds shown so far seem that good).
   
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We know from an image of the stratagem page that Bolter Drill gives a unit's bolters the ability to generate extra hits on hit rolls of 6+. This works out to be basically the same thing as re-rolling 1s to hit, but it stacks with re-rolls. It doesn't strike me as being particularly good.

I don't think Imperial Fists are getting a whole lot that's that worthwhile, really. The Warlord trait is neat but ultimately it's only protecting you from AP -1 shooting.

The standout Chapter stratagems are Raven Guard (1 CP for infiltrate) and White Scars (1 CP to advance a bike 8", shoot, and charge). Maybe Black Templars with Abhor the Witch (1 CP to deny on a 4+ within 24"). The others make a unit do a few more wounds.

   
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SilverAlien wrote:
 NorseSig wrote:
I am looking at how they can be used. Look at the list I used today. So far it looks like they are quite limited, and ultimately based on current info a low mid tier. The IH ARE at a disadvantage compared to other chapters for the most part.


So I'd just like to point something out: The current info about the IH tends to indicate they have a great deal of synergy with existing powerful space marine lists.

Firstly, the CT makes your infantry harder to kill, and thus better at holding objectives. That's 75% of what most marine armies use infantry for at this point, along with snipers for enemy characters it seems. I highly doubt any of the tactics I've seen so far will change that, so generally the boost is more useful than anything related to dealing damage etc, if we are discussing actual tiers.

Secondly, depending on how the stratagem works, it may apply to flyers as well as tanks. Suddenly stormtalons and stormhawks can move without a firing penalty, which is one of the big draws of the stormraven. Given how popular the stormraven is, that's again a kinda big deal.

So... as far as actual tiers go, IH currently looks like it could benefit the best current marine builds more than any other. Which could change when point costs are adjusted, maybe some of the other tactics are some powerful they end up creating new best builds even (though none of the builds shown so far seem that good).

Yes, the IH stratagem appears to work on flyers. Of course, it only means they get 25% more hits when shooting the things they each want to be shooting at.
   
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Dionysodorus wrote:
We know from an image of the stratagem page that Bolter Drill gives a unit's bolters the ability to generate extra hits on hit rolls of 6+. This works out to be basically the same thing as re-rolling 1s to hit, but it stacks with re-rolls. It doesn't strike me as being particularly good.

Uhh no.

Rerolling ones is 14/18 hits per dice rolled.
Exploding 6's is 1/2 Hit plus 1/6 chance of 2 Hits. Which is 5/6 (I think) or 15/18. A little better.

And you mentioned the stacking rerolls, which will increase it a bit more.

edit: Well, you did say basically the same and 1/18 difference is basically the same. I thought it would be more dramatic. It probably is with rerolls.

Rerolls
1/2 Hit plus 1/6 chance of 2 hits. 15/18 hit.
Then
Rerolls
1/6 Misses get rerolled, with 1/2 hit is 1/12 more hits. Then 1/6 of 1/6 get 2 hits.

So 3/36 and 2/36 plus 30/36 is 35/36 per shot. So basically, you hit with every bolter.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2017/07/21 20:12:05


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Hmmm, so looks like I am positioning Pedro Kantor near the Sternguard for maximum effect. I could also put a Lieutenant near them for even more wounds from Masterful Marksmanship.

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