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Was there any doubt antifa threw the first punch? I mean, they showed up to knock some Nazi heads together, so...

The Nazis are Nazis, though, and they also actually escalated it to the point of killing someone. So...

 Ahtman wrote:
Pretty much the only time I ever hear about (or even heard of) Antifa was in response to something Nazis/White Power/KKK did. !

Well that's probably because you're not widely read or informed.

 whembly wrote:
You've cherry picked two lines of that entire post in order to make your point.

Stop that Seb... you're not having an honest dialogue here.

I highlighted those lines, yes, but I didn't remove any context or apply any other meaning than what was already there. I didn't include the rest of the post because I thought the point about the right to speech and the right to assemble were fine, and I had already expressed similar views, including I believe in a response to you.

So I picked out the two bits I had a problem with, and left the rest out. None of the rest changed the meaning of those two sentences.

To put a different spin on your argument, using the same structure.

The nazis are awful in every way.
Anfita is also awful, and does a lot of the same bad stuff, but they're nowhere near as awful as the nazis.
Political violence is wrong, not needed and generally counter productive. Everyone should knock that off right now.
Both sides, and everyone else, have a right to free speech and to assemble.

BUT
There is no real effort anywhere to take away the right to free speech or freedom of assembly. Worrying about that is deflecting.
There is no real effort anywhere to condone the violence committed by either side. Worrying about that is deflecting.
There is a real effort to deflect from criticism of the nazis by talking only about the violence, as if that was the only bad thing that happened in Charlottesville.

BECAUSE
What happened in Charlottesville should sicken every decent person, even if antifa hadn't arrived, even if no-one had swung a single punch, we should be horrified that nazis now feel free so openly proclaim their odious beliefs.

SO
The real conversation needs to be focused on what can be done to reduce the power of nazism to as small a group as possible, without infringing on anyone's rights.

 Crazyterran wrote:
Was there any doubt antifa threw the first punch? I mean, they showed up to knock some Nazi heads together, so...

The Nazis are Nazis, though, and they also actually escalated it to the point of killing someone. So...

it's hard to tell who threw the first punch, there were a lot of people there.

but come on, antifa was just standing their ground. the Nazi's charged into them. textbook self defense.

all the klan had to do was stop for a minute and let the police clear the way.

 sebster wrote:

 whembly wrote:
No, it isn't. So instead of jumping down my throat believing that I'm equating the two... maybe the first question ought to be "whem... are you suggesting they're the same?".

Wouldn't that foster better dialogue than do what ya'll just did?

If you were otherwise taking steps to focus on nazism as the primary concern of what happened in Charlottesville, then yeah I think such questions would be warranted. But all you've done is focus on the violence from a 'both sides' angle.

Do you think we're capable of chew gun and walking?

My primary concerns are both the fething white nationalist and the fething antifa.

As a longtime poster, you would know that I lived TEN fething minutes away from the Ferguson riots.

So, my give-a-feth-o-meter on either group's cause is non-existent since both sides were "looking for a fight". Frankly both those white nationalist and the recent antifa movement deserves nothing but scorn.

I'm not assigning some percentage to one side or the other... my point was that it's IRRELEVANT.

YOU and some OTHER posters latch on to that as if I'm equating the two equally to either shield the actions of the white nationalists or to give too much prominent to antifa's violence. THIS. IS. FETHING. TOXIC.

That's what I'm pissed off about there, as its as if you're subliminally inferring that I support these guys.

 sebster wrote:

 44Ronin wrote:
The irony of people here spamming out 'moral equivalency' and trying to use the 'not as bad as' equivocation is just pathetic and irrelevant non-argument.

The lesser of two evils is still evil.

Nope, you've missed the point entirely. There is nothing wrong with saying what antifa did was wrong. That is what everyone should do - condemn all political violence, by anyone, against anyone.

But there is something deeply wrong with trying to reduce the events in Charlottesville down to nothing but the violence, as if people marching under swastikas and chanting 'Jews won't replace us' wouldn't be utterly sickening even without the violence that followed. Trying to talk past that and just focus on the violence is an attempt to dodge the ugly reality of nazis now feeling bolder and freer to act than at any point in decades.

Likewise, what's deeply wrong is the dishonest equivocation of the driver to the right wingers present and the attempt to paint or gloss over all the right wingers present as 'nazis'.

If you want to find someone who is oversimplifying the scenario, it is you.

I reject your assertion that the issue is 'the nazis'. No, the issue is that the united states is starting to resemble the weimar republic.

 44Ronin wrote:

 sebster wrote:

 44Ronin wrote:
The irony of people here spamming out 'moral equivalency' and trying to use the 'not as bad as' equivocation is just pathetic and irrelevant non-argument.

The lesser of two evils is still evil.

Nope, you've missed the point entirely. There is nothing wrong with saying what antifa did was wrong. That is what everyone should do - condemn all political violence, by anyone, against anyone.

But there is something deeply wrong with trying to reduce the events in Charlottesville down to nothing but the violence, as if people marching under swastikas and chanting 'Jews won't replace us' wouldn't be utterly sickening even without the violence that followed. Trying to talk past that and just focus on the violence is an attempt to dodge the ugly reality of nazis now feeling bolder and freer to act than at any point in decades.

Likewise, what's deeply wrong is the dishonest equivocation of the driver to the right wingers present and the attempt to paint or gloss over all the right wingers present as 'nazis'.

If you want to find someone who is oversimplifying the scenario, it is you.

and you're painting all the counter protesters as Nazi's, I'm glad you realise how deeply wrong and dishonest you are.

I remember three pages ago when I was like, "oh god, I overstepped the bounds of what I was trying to implicate with a given turn of phrase that those opposed broadly to my personal philosophy happen to feel in terms more personal than I could myself personally feel".

Nowsadays I feel as those the situation is so complex that i do not know what i should be saying is the situation that I understand to be the what that we should say is how things are gonna be, understand?

sirlynchmob wrote:

 44Ronin wrote:

 sebster wrote:

 44Ronin wrote:
The irony of people here spamming out 'moral equivalency' and trying to use the 'not as bad as' equivocation is just pathetic and irrelevant non-argument.

The lesser of two evils is still evil.

Nope, you've missed the point entirely. There is nothing wrong with saying what antifa did was wrong. That is what everyone should do - condemn all political violence, by anyone, against anyone.

But there is something deeply wrong with trying to reduce the events in Charlottesville down to nothing but the violence, as if people marching under swastikas and chanting 'Jews won't replace us' wouldn't be utterly sickening even without the violence that followed. Trying to talk past that and just focus on the violence is an attempt to dodge the ugly reality of nazis now feeling bolder and freer to act than at any point in decades.

Likewise, what's deeply wrong is the dishonest equivocation of the driver to the right wingers present and the attempt to paint or gloss over all the right wingers present as 'nazis'.

If you want to find someone who is oversimplifying the scenario, it is you.

and you're painting all the counter protesters as Nazi's, I'm glad you realise how deeply wrong and dishonest you are.

No, everything I discussed in terms of Antifa applies to antifa and doesn't extend to non-antifa. But for entertainment sake go try to find something I said and wiggle it to appear as me painting everyone there who wasn't on the right wing as antifa.

 sebster wrote:

 whembly wrote:
You've cherry picked two lines of that entire post in order to make your point.

Stop that Seb... you're not having an honest dialogue here.

I highlighted those lines, yes, but I didn't remove any context or apply any other meaning than what was already there. I didn't include the rest of the post because I thought the point about the right to speech and the right to assemble were fine, and I had already expressed similar views, including I believe in a response to you.

So I picked out the two bits I had a problem with, and left the rest out. None of the rest changed the meaning of those two sentences.

To put a different spin on your argument, using the same structure.

The nazis are awful in every way.
Anfita is also awful, and does a lot of the same bad stuff, but they're nowhere near as awful as the nazis.
Political violence is wrong, not needed and generally counter productive. Everyone should knock that off right now.
Both sides, and everyone else, have a right to free speech and to assemble.

BUT
There is no real effort anywhere to take away the right to free speech or freedom of assembly. Worrying about that is deflecting.
There is no real effort anywhere to condone the violence committed by either side. Worrying about that is deflecting.
There is a real effort to deflect from criticism of the nazis by talking only about the violence, as if that was the only bad thing that happened in Charlottesville.

BECAUSE
What happened in Charlottesville should sicken every decent person, even if antifa hadn't arrived, even if no-one had swung a single punch, we should be horrified that nazis now feel free so openly proclaim their odious beliefs.

SO
The real conversation needs to be focused on what can be done to reduce the power of nazism to as small a group as possible, without infringing on anyone's rights.

How can you even interpret that I'm deflecting criticism from these nazis by only talking about the violence when I started off with this:

Nazis and their ideology are despicable human beings who should be condemned and rejected at every opportunity.

Ya know... some of the parts that you snipped.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 daedalus wrote:
I remember three pages ago when I was like, "oh god, I overstepped the bounds of what I was trying to implicate with a given turn of phrase that those opposed broadly to my personal philosophy happen to feel in terms more personal than I could myself personally feel".

Nowsadays I feel as those the situation is so complex that i do not know what i should be saying is the situation that I understand to be the what that we should say is how things are gonna be, understand?

Exactamundo.

Just asking, when will the left wing media disavow Antifa?

Guys here (who seem to be apologetic to antifa's violence) saying the problem isn't the downward spiral to political street violence.....but the words of some neo nazi cosplayers....?

The Nazis are Nazis, though, and they also actually escalated it to the point of killing someone. So...

Sorry but what? You are presuming that Antifa, who have, for months been attacking people in the street for simply being pro-Trump, didn't escalate the situation?

These double standards are blowing my mind guys.

Antifa is bad, but they didnt kill someone. The Nazis down in VA did.

The fact that you find them at all equivalent is reprehnsible. The fact you down play them as 'cosplayers' is as well.

 whembly wrote:
Do you think we're capable of chew gun and walking?

We are, so when someone sits still chewing gum, I'm gonna assume it's because they don't want to walk.

So when someone posts entirely about the violence on both sides, and doesn't say much at all about one side being nazis, then I'm gonna assume its because they don't think the nazis are relevant.

My primary concerns are both the fething white nationalist and the fething antifa.

And your primary concern is wrong. Antifa are a bunch of clowns clinging to ridiculous philosophies and idealistic notions of fighting for a cause. They will fade in time, replaced by some new group that fills the same space, just as antifa replaced similar movement before them. There will always be idealistic kids looking for a cause they can pretend to heroically fight for.

The nazi thing is different. Race hate is different. It is so much more dangerous, it has such a horrendous legacy in your country, in my country, in so many places.

That real and all important fact is being buried by a con job that looks at Charlotteville entirely in terms of violence.

That's what I'm pissed off about there, as its as if you're subliminally inferring that I support these guys.

That is not what I'm doing. That's not what I think anyone is doing. Sorry if that's the impression you've gotten, and I will take some blame for that, thinking back on some of the words I've used.

What I am saying is that the violence is bad, but it is only a small part of the story here. It sounds harsh, but violence happens, even political protests. Most times injuries don't reach fatalities, but that does happen sometimes as well. We shouldn't reach that point, ever, but we're far from a perfect society.

But somethings represent far greater threats. One of the biggest is race hate. That's the big thing, the one we need to focus on in the wake of what happened.

 44Ronin wrote:
Just asking, when will the left wing media disavow Antifa?

Guys here (who seem to be apologetic to antifa's violence) saying the problem isn't the downward spiral to political street violence.....but the words of some neo nazi cosplayers....?

The Nazis are Nazis, though, and they also actually escalated it to the point of killing someone. So...

Sorry but what? You are presuming that Antifa, who have, for months been attacking people in the street for simply being pro-Trump, didn't escalate the situation?

These double standards are blowing my mind guys.

For being pro-Trump?

Nazis didn't just appear out of the fething ground in Charlottesville the other day and nice, measured, "reasoned debate" where we listen carefully to Nazi concerns and have TV talk show panels asking if Nazis maybe have a point, and allow Nazis to march around in public without opposition or appropriate condemnation is how we got to the stage that these scum are committing terror attacks against demonstrators and chanting antisemitic filth outside a synagogue in the first place.

You realise all this false equivalence between literal actual Nazis and the people opposing them is starting to sound like letters and op-eds in the Daily Mail in the 30's condemning the socialists and antifascists going off to Spain to fight Franco and insisting we could reach a rational accommodation with the Nazi regime, right?

Shame used to be an adequate weapon to keep Nazis in check, but once the "respectable" right got into bed with Nazis and the "moderates" started insisting we not condemn Nazis out of hand they stopped being ashamed, making direct confrontation necessary, and if that confrontation leads to a few golf shirt wearing, chinless, racist, Nazi scumbags getting punched, I am super OK with that.

So feth "double standards" - punch a Nazi today, punch a Nazi tomorrow, punch and dox and protest every Nazi you can find until these despicable creatures crawl back inside whatever hole they came from, because the normal democratic process is not adequate to deal with a group of people who want to suspend the normal democratic process in order to literally commit genocide.

 Crazyterran wrote:
Antifa is bad, but they didnt kill someone. The Nazis down in VA did.

The fact that you find them at all equivalent is reprehnsible. The fact you down play them as 'cosplayers' is as well.

I do look down on neo-nazis and make fun of them, because I'm not down with violence.



What's reprehensible is violence and its apologists, like you. You're obsessing over the results of the skirmishes, not the fact of the skirmishes.

 44Ronin wrote:
Likewise, what's deeply wrong is the dishonest equivocation of the driver to the right wingers present and the attempt to paint or gloss over all the right wingers present as 'nazis'.

Yeah, I mean sure, lots of people turned up to protest the removal of the statue, and on realising they were marching with people carrying swastikas chanting 'Blood and Soil' they... kept marching. So it's totally wrong to say those people were nazis. Much better to say they

If you want to find someone who is oversimplifying the scenario, it is you.

I am happy to talk about the complexity of the issue, but that discussion has to begin from a point that represents the basic realities of the issue.

I see you're Australian, so I'll try an AFL analogy. Think of the complexity of defeating the forward press by maintaining ball use that balances run & carry, direct and peripheral use. We can have that conversation, but only once we first agree that the purpose of the game is to kick a bigger score than the other team. Yes, 'kicking a bigger score than the other team' is very simplistic, but it's where you have to start.

So far with Charlottesville you have reached the starting point.

No, the issue is that the united states is starting to resemble the weimar republic.

Given the Nazis in Charlottesville, that's a fascinating comparison. I mean it's fething stupid as an analogy, but it's a fascinating choice you made.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 whembly wrote:
How can you even interpret that I'm deflecting criticism from these nazis by only talking about the violence when I started off with this:

Nazis and their ideology are despicable human beings who should be condemned and rejected at every opportunity.

Ya know... some of the parts that you snipped.

Dude, that was the part I kept. I think you might want to go back and read it again, I think you've gotten a bit lost in what was actually said by both of us.

And yes, throwing out a standard line that nazis are bad, then applying the exact same line to the people fighting the nazis, and then talking only about violence and not about the race hate of one side that went to Charlottesville is deflecting from what really happened. It would be like describing WW2 as 'two groups of nations fought and both sides killed many people'. What was fought for actually matters.

 Yodhrin wrote:

 44Ronin wrote:
Just asking, when will the left wing media disavow Antifa?

Guys here (who seem to be apologetic to antifa's violence) saying the problem isn't the downward spiral to political street violence.....but the words of some neo nazi cosplayers....?

The Nazis are Nazis, though, and they also actually escalated it to the point of killing someone. So...

Sorry but what? You are presuming that Antifa, who have, for months been attacking people in the street for simply being pro-Trump, didn't escalate the situation?

These double standards are blowing my mind guys.

For being pro-Trump?

Yes. for those who have been living under a rock, Antifa have been attacking people at Trump rallies.

Let's not forget berkeley bikelock bandit

Nazis didn't just appear out of the fething ground in Charlottesville the other day and nice, measured, "reasoned debate" where we listen carefully to Nazi concerns and have TV talk show panels asking if Nazis maybe have a point, and allow Nazis to march around in public without opposition or appropriate condemnation is how we got to the stage that these scum are committing terror attacks against demonstrators and chanting antisemitic filth outside a synagogue in the first place.

Attempting to locate intelligent argument.....

You realise all this false equivalence between literal actual Nazis and the people opposing them is starting to sound like letters and op-eds in the Daily Mail in the 30's condemning the socialists and antifascists going off to Spain to fight Franco and insisting we could reach a rational accommodation with the Nazi regime, right?

Actual nazi's were a thing in the 30's. These guys are wannabes. You're the bearer of false-equivalence.

Shame used to be an adequate weapon to keep Nazis in check, but once the "respectable" right got into bed with Nazis and the "moderates" started insisting we not condemn Nazis out of hand they stopped being ashamed, making direct confrontation necessary, and if that confrontation leads to a few golf shirt wearing, chinless, racist, Nazi scumbags getting punched, I am super OK with that.

Your narratives are hilarious nonsense.

So feth "double standards" - punch a Nazi today, punch a Nazi tomorrow, punch and dox and protest every Nazi you can find until these despicable creatures crawl back inside whatever hole they came from, because the normal democratic process is not adequate to deal with a group of people who want to suspend the normal democratic process in order to literally commit genocide.

And here we have the regressive call to the de-evolution of society. The regressive call to primitive violence.

 44Ronin wrote:
Just asking, when will the left wing media disavow Antifa?

How do you disavow a group you never aligned with in the first place? I don't think you know what words mean.

Guys here (who seem to be apologetic to antifa's violence) saying the problem isn't the downward spiral to political street violence.....but the words of some neo nazi cosplayers....?

And now you're describing people who preach and believe in race hate, who carry swastikas and chant Nazi slogans, as cosplayers. You're being ridiculous and should stop.

Sorry but what? You are presuming that Antifa, who have, for months been attacking people in the street for simply being pro-Trump, didn't escalate the situation?

Yeah, okay, you're getting pretty heated, you're not thinking straight. Step back for a while mate, take some breaths. Because you're posting nonsense. When someone 'escalates to' something it means they are the first to take it to that step. It was a nazi who took the first step to murdering someone. This doesn't mean other people didn't also escalate other things.

But seriously, when you've gotten to the point where you're angry enough that you can't follow simple sentences, step back from the keyboard for a while. Don't worry, it happens to everyone sometimes. But hanging around while posting that kind of nonsense is not useful for you, or for anyone else.

 44Ronin wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
Antifa is bad, but they didnt kill someone. The Nazis down in VA did.

The fact that you find them at all equivalent is reprehnsible. The fact you down play them as 'cosplayers' is as well.

I do look down on neo-nazis and make fun of them, because I'm not down with violence.



What's reprehensible is violence and its apologists, like you. You're obsessing over the results of the skirmishes, not the fact of the skirmishes.

The very post you quoted i say Antifa is bad. Of course street violence is bad, it doesnt even need to be said.

Antifa is bad. I said it again, in case you needed it repeated.

I cant imagine any rational, decent human being picking a bunch of Nazis over Antifa, however. The fact that over seventy years after the end of the second world war, after seeing the atrocities perpetuated by the Nazi regime, we still have people who will proudly march under their colours should be a shameful moment to the western world as a whole.

The fact there are people like you who would defend them, even by arguing that the ones who got into a street brawl with them are just as bad, is horrible.

So, yes, Antifa is bad. A lot of them are idiots, and anyone who went down spoiling for a fight should be prosecuted. But they are not anywhere as bad as the people they fought.

 sebster wrote:

 44Ronin wrote:
Just asking, when will the left wing media disavow Antifa?

How do you disavow a group you never aligned with in the first place? I don't think you know what words mean.

Start with cutting the apologetics?

Guys here (who seem to be apologetic to antifa's violence) saying the problem isn't the downward spiral to political street violence.....but the words of some neo nazi cosplayers....?

And now you're describing people who preach and believe in race hate, who carry swastikas and chant Nazi slogans, as cosplayers. You're being ridiculous and should stop.

This thread has really jumped the shark, er, tracks.

 sebster wrote:

BUT
There is no real effort anywhere to take away the right to free speech or freedom of assembly. Worrying about that is deflecting.

/quote]

Calling utter steaming turd on that one.

Shutting down is Antifa's call to arms. They pull fire alarms, set areas on fire and all other sorts of nefarious tactics to do exactly what you claim they don't.

It's not deflection, it is a fact about the group. A fact solidified in their actions over the past recent months and instilled in their stated doctrine.

I'm walking away from this thread. I'm tired of people condemning both sides as equally bad. I'm tired of the whole " they're not proper Nazis" lame excuse. Even if they're just a Nazi fan club, they're fans of people who would have put my wife in an effing concentration camp. They're fans of people who in the 60s were hanging people like my wife from effing trees. They're scum and I'm not going to lose any sleep if a few of them get a kicking. There, I said it.

This all got really stupid and really off topic fast. Well done guys, you should have lost this thread pages ago but I was at work. I hope the extra few hours of sniping, misrepresenting the arguments of users on 'the other side' and generally rolling around in the OT was worth it. No more threads to do with the riots, even tangentially. That's done. It ruined its thread and then it ruined this one.