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 Excommunicatus wrote:
Right. Because two datasheets that say different things on them are the same.

Looooool.

I do agree that you should [Expletive Deleted] off to YMDC, though. Both of you.

I'm finished anyway, the rules, GW and TO's have all made the position clear.

Niiru wrote:
I'm finished anyway, the rules, GW and TO's have all made the position clear.

I'd love to see the ruling please, in writing or in video. Two different datasheets that exist in two different codices that have different wording/keywords and take up different force org slots are NOT the same datasheet, even if they share the same name. Players at my GW store do this and there is zero issue, even with the manager of my store who is a notorious stickler for rules and keeps on top of rule changes like a hawk.

I would love for this topic to go back to making fun of odd rule things instead of bickering about how rules work.

ClockworkZion wrote:I would love for this topic to go back to making fun of odd rule things instead of bickering about how rules work.

Yeh me too, but seems like people can't take it where it belongs.

w1zard wrote:

Niiru wrote:
I'm finished anyway, the rules, GW and TO's have all made the position clear.

I'd love to see the ruling please, in writing or in video. Two different datasheets that exist in two different codices that have different wording/keywords and take up different force org slots are NOT the same datasheet, even if they share the same name. Players at my GW store do this and there is zero issue, even with the manager of my store who is a notorious stickler for rules and keeps on top of rule changes like a hawk.

I was talking about Predators, not techmarines. They don't have different keywords, or different rules, or different force orgs. I said (several times, reading, reading is the key) that techmarines seem to be a unique unit in this case.

Niiru wrote:
I was talking about Predators, not techmarines. They don't have different keywords, or different rules, or different force orgs. I said (several times, reading, reading is the key) that techmarines seem to be a unique unit in this case.

The predator datahseets in the different codices don't have different keywords? I find that hard to believe considering that would make them unusable to everything except vanilla space marines.

So to try and go back more to the comedy side of things:

Your genestealer cult has been planning their uprising for generations and when time comes for them to spring their ambush on the defenders and drag them under....they show up a battle round late.

Should have synchronized their watches I guess.

A warboss, the biggest, strongest ork around, able to easily rip a man in half with brute strength alone, with arms as thick as many a human is wide, struggles to use a power klaw just as much as a normal human struggles to use an equivalently powerful melee weapon.

 Vitali Advenil wrote:
A warboss, the biggest, strongest ork around, able to easily rip a man in half with brute strength alone, with arms as thick as many a human is wide, struggles to use a power klaw just as much as a normal human struggles to use an equivalently powerful melee weapon.

Have you looked at a Power Klaw? Those things look much heavier than a Power Fist.

I find it funny that a Space Marine in Terminator Armor, which is armor literally designed to function inside of a plasma reactor, is super vulnerable to being killed by a single overcharged shot from a plasma gun. I mean, one would think that a plasma reactor would be like a million plasma gun shots hitting the armor every minute, right? Yet only one hit will most likely vaporize the Terminator.

 ZergSmasher wrote:

 Vitali Advenil wrote:
A warboss, the biggest, strongest ork around, able to easily rip a man in half with brute strength alone, with arms as thick as many a human is wide, struggles to use a power klaw just as much as a normal human struggles to use an equivalently powerful melee weapon.

Have you looked at a Power Klaw? Those things look much heavier than a Power Fist.

I find it funny that a Space Marine in Terminator Armor, which is armor literally designed to function inside of a plasma reactor, is super vulnerable to being killed by a single overcharged shot from a plasma gun. I mean, one would think that a plasma reactor would be like a million plasma gun shots hitting the armor every minute, right? Yet only one hit will most likely vaporize the Terminator.

One would assume that if it's much heavier it would also be better. Especially with GW's fixation about reflecting size on stats. Maybe that's the comedy here.

 ZergSmasher wrote:

 Vitali Advenil wrote:
A warboss, the biggest, strongest ork around, able to easily rip a man in half with brute strength alone, with arms as thick as many a human is wide, struggles to use a power klaw just as much as a normal human struggles to use an equivalently powerful melee weapon.

Have you looked at a Power Klaw? Those things look much heavier than a Power Fist.

I find it funny that a Space Marine in Terminator Armor, which is armor literally designed to function inside of a plasma reactor, is super vulnerable to being killed by a single overcharged shot from a plasma gun. I mean, one would think that a plasma reactor would be like a million plasma gun shots hitting the armor every minute, right? Yet only one hit will most likely vaporize the Terminator.

A reactor probably does not output plasma shots in itself. I'd expect the plasma gun projectile to have a lot more power than what you'd be exposed to inside a reactor. The protective clothes used in nuclear reactors won't save you from a direct nuke shot, after all.

We have people who work inside operating nuclear reactors?

I don't know, but the point is,there's a difference between reactors and weapons.

 Bobthehero wrote:
I don't know, but the point is,there's a difference between reactors and weapons.

This is true, last time I tried chucking a reactor at someone I nearly put my back out

plus you can take a reactor on a plane...

I have yet to play a game of 8th, but this sounds like the worst game ever.

 KTG17 wrote:
I have yet to play a game of 8th, but this sounds like the worst game ever.

Many games have weird disconnects between logic and gameplay. In magic the gathering, two squirrels can fight evenly with a full grown grizzly bear, 5 can kill most dragons, while 15 of them can team up to take down the largest of the Eldrazi titans, which are plane-destroying deific creatures. Many video game RPG’s have sword fighters able to shrug off machine gun fire while hitting far harder than said firearms, and have final bosses use ridiculous epic moves like causing a SUPER NOVA and destroying a solar system, but not only does the move not kill a level appropriate hero, it can MISS them entirely.

Never mind the silliness of going bankrupt because you were forced to stay at a hotel on boardwalk instead of just deciding to walk around the corner to cheap Baltic avenue.

Anyway:

-An interesting situation happens when a skyshield pad with a dreadnought or similar unit on top is destroyed. The dreadnought can happily sit still atop the ruins, but should he make his way down to the ground, he can never return to his perch.

 niv-mizzet wrote:

 KTG17 wrote:
I have yet to play a game of 8th, but this sounds like the worst game ever.

Many games have weird disconnects between logic and gameplay. In magic the gathering, two squirrels can fight evenly with a full grown grizzly bear, 5 can kill most dragons, while 15 of them can team up to take down the largest of the Eldrazi titans, which are plane-destroying deific creatures. Many video game RPG’s have sword fighters able to shrug off machine gun fire while hitting far harder than said firearms, and have final bosses use ridiculous epic moves like causing a SUPER NOVA and destroying a solar system, but not only does the move not kill a level appropriate hero, it can MISS them entirely.

Never mind the silliness of going bankrupt because you were forced to stay at a hotel on boardwalk instead of just deciding to walk around the corner to cheap Baltic avenue.

Anyway:

-An interesting situation happens when a skyshield pad with a dreadnought or similar unit on top is destroyed. The dreadnought can happily sit still atop the ruins, but should he make his way down to the ground, he can never return to his perch.

Can the dreadnought actually climb the skyshield pad?

And if so, but can't climb ruins... if the pad is destroyed would it be able to actually climb -down- the ruins, or would it just be stuck?

 ZergSmasher wrote:

 Vitali Advenil wrote:
A warboss, the biggest, strongest ork around, able to easily rip a man in half with brute strength alone, with arms as thick as many a human is wide, struggles to use a power klaw just as much as a normal human struggles to use an equivalently powerful melee weapon.

Have you looked at a Power Klaw? Those things look much heavier than a Power Fist.

I find it funny that a Space Marine in Terminator Armor, which is armor literally designed to function inside of a plasma reactor, is super vulnerable to being killed by a single overcharged shot from a plasma gun. I mean, one would think that a plasma reactor would be like a million plasma gun shots hitting the armor every minute, right? Yet only one hit will most likely vaporize the Terminator.

You think that's bad, when 3rd edition launched Terminators didn't even have an invulnerable save! They had to add it in Chapter Approved. However, the invulnerable save is meant to represent the whole "super tough" thing, it just doesn't translate well into 8th. Terminators really need an extra point of toughness and a 1+ save for them to even be remotely worth their points.

Huh, new GW is the same as old GW. Whodathunkit!

I'm glad my gaming group is pretty lax with CC rules and units standing on a step stool being unable to be charged. Its thematic for Ruins, if your model cant fit, then fine, but its pretty dumb with certain terrain features like craters, ice blocks, trenches, hills etc.

But yeah, carrying a step stool with you in battle will make you nigh invincible.

Niiru wrote:

 niv-mizzet wrote:

 KTG17 wrote:
I have yet to play a game of 8th, but this sounds like the worst game ever.

Many games have weird disconnects between logic and gameplay. In magic the gathering, two squirrels can fight evenly with a full grown grizzly bear, 5 can kill most dragons, while 15 of them can team up to take down the largest of the Eldrazi titans, which are plane-destroying deific creatures. Many video game RPG’s have sword fighters able to shrug off machine gun fire while hitting far harder than said firearms, and have final bosses use ridiculous epic moves like causing a SUPER NOVA and destroying a solar system, but not only does the move not kill a level appropriate hero, it can MISS them entirely.

Never mind the silliness of going bankrupt because you were forced to stay at a hotel on boardwalk instead of just deciding to walk around the corner to cheap Baltic avenue.

Anyway:

-An interesting situation happens when a skyshield pad with a dreadnought or similar unit on top is destroyed. The dreadnought can happily sit still atop the ruins, but should he make his way down to the ground, he can never return to his perch.

Can the dreadnought actually climb the skyshield pad?

And if so, but can't climb ruins... if the pad is destroyed would it be able to actually climb -down- the ruins, or would it just be stuck?

It’s debatable. Going by pure no-intent RAW, only enemies can get on your landing pad. If you play by enough intent to allow someone to deploy on their own pad, only ruins and sector mechanicus iirc actually stop non-flying units of certain types from climbing them. “Need fly to get big units upstairs” is not actually a core rule, just a rule on those couple terrain types.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 ZergSmasher wrote:

 Vitali Advenil wrote:
A warboss, the biggest, strongest ork around, able to easily rip a man in half with brute strength alone, with arms as thick as many a human is wide, struggles to use a power klaw just as much as a normal human struggles to use an equivalently powerful melee weapon.

Have you looked at a Power Klaw? Those things look much heavier than a Power Fist.

I find it funny that a Space Marine in Terminator Armor, which is armor literally designed to function inside of a plasma reactor, is super vulnerable to being killed by a single overcharged shot from a plasma gun. I mean, one would think that a plasma reactor would be like a million plasma gun shots hitting the armor every minute, right? Yet only one hit will most likely vaporize the Terminator.

You think that's bad, when 3rd edition launched Terminators didn't even have an invulnerable save! They had to add it in Chapter Approved. However, the invulnerable save is meant to represent the whole "super tough" thing, it just doesn't translate well into 8th. Terminators really need an extra point of toughness and a 1+ save for them to even be remotely worth their points.

Huh, new GW is the same as old GW. Whodathunkit!

You might be thinking of 4th. In 3rd Terminators were a 3+ save on 2 dice. As in, roll 2d6, add the results together, beat a 2. Lascannons had a -6 save modifier iirc.

The Newman wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 ZergSmasher wrote:

 Vitali Advenil wrote:
A warboss, the biggest, strongest ork around, able to easily rip a man in half with brute strength alone, with arms as thick as many a human is wide, struggles to use a power klaw just as much as a normal human struggles to use an equivalently powerful melee weapon.

Have you looked at a Power Klaw? Those things look much heavier than a Power Fist.

I find it funny that a Space Marine in Terminator Armor, which is armor literally designed to function inside of a plasma reactor, is super vulnerable to being killed by a single overcharged shot from a plasma gun. I mean, one would think that a plasma reactor would be like a million plasma gun shots hitting the armor every minute, right? Yet only one hit will most likely vaporize the Terminator.

You think that's bad, when 3rd edition launched Terminators didn't even have an invulnerable save! They had to add it in Chapter Approved. However, the invulnerable save is meant to represent the whole "super tough" thing, it just doesn't translate well into 8th. Terminators really need an extra point of toughness and a 1+ save for them to even be remotely worth their points.

Huh, new GW is the same as old GW. Whodathunkit!

You might be thinking of 4th. In 3rd Terminators were a 3+ save on 2 dice. As in, roll 2d6, add the results together, beat a 2. Lascannons had a -6 save modifier iirc.

That was 2nd. 2nd was the full on modifier edition. 3rd had zero modifiers and moved from a squad skirmish game to a full on army vs army game. You are right that in 2nd Terminators had a 3+ save on 2D6. I remember it also being unable to be modified past a certain amount (basically a proto-invulnerable save) but I don't see it mentioned in the Ultramarine codex. If someone knows what I am thinking about (or if I am just plain wrong) please let me know.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
I remember it also being unable to be modified past a certain amount (basically a proto-invulnerable save) but I don't see it mentioned in the Ultramarine codex. If someone knows what I am thinking about (or if I am just plain wrong) please let me know.

No, that wasn't a thing. It was just the save on 2 dice. The drop from that to the straight 2+ save in 3rd ed was painful...

 insaniak wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
I remember it also being unable to be modified past a certain amount (basically a proto-invulnerable save) but I don't see it mentioned in the Ultramarine codex. If someone knows what I am thinking about (or if I am just plain wrong) please let me know.

No, that wasn't a thing. It was just the save on 2 dice. The drop from that to the straight 2+ save in 3rd ed was painful...

Was there something like that at all in 2nd or am I just getting more senile by the day?

I remember the Chapter Approved (The good ol' Black Book) giving them a 5+ invulnerable and everyone was like "yey... bike." I also remember when Plasma Cannons were the ultimate anti-terminator armour weapon because of the Deep Strike rules and Blast Markers.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 ZergSmasher wrote:

 Vitali Advenil wrote:
A warboss, the biggest, strongest ork around, able to easily rip a man in half with brute strength alone, with arms as thick as many a human is wide, struggles to use a power klaw just as much as a normal human struggles to use an equivalently powerful melee weapon.

Have you looked at a Power Klaw? Those things look much heavier than a Power Fist.

I find it funny that a Space Marine in Terminator Armor, which is armor literally designed to function inside of a plasma reactor, is super vulnerable to being killed by a single overcharged shot from a plasma gun. I mean, one would think that a plasma reactor would be like a million plasma gun shots hitting the armor every minute, right? Yet only one hit will most likely vaporize the Terminator.

You think that's bad, when 3rd edition launched Terminators didn't even have an invulnerable save! They had to add it in Chapter Approved. However, the invulnerable save is meant to represent the whole "super tough" thing, it just doesn't translate well into 8th. Terminators really need an extra point of toughness and a 1+ save for them to even be remotely worth their points.

They should just throw the oldmarine players a bone and given them the Aggressor stat line. Keep those oldmarines players happy a little while longer

A Primarch of the Ultramarines chapter can sneakily sidle into battle with a squad of 10 Khorne Berzerkers that just charged another squad of blue marines and they are so in awe of his confidence that they refuse to attack him out of pure respect.

After finishing them off he can then tippy toe into combat with a passing thunderhawk.

Meanwhile the Imperial knight on the opposite side of the field is sulking because the officer in charge refuses to order him to swing the 20 metre long chain blade into an office block where some cultists are having a brew and roasting marshmallows

Tea time is sacred and only a heathen would dare violate its sanctity.

 Bobthehero wrote:
I don't know, but the point is,there's a difference between reactors and weapons.

Nuclear reactors generally run at something like 300 celsius
Nuclear weapons generally peak at something approaching 100,000,000 celsius

Same word (nuclear), totally different threat level in terms of temperature.

Plasma sounds kewl and deadly and stuff - but the inside of a fluorescent light or plasma TV is really not that scary due to the low density of the plasma. We know little about 40k plasma reactors other than that walking in entirely unprotected would be a very bad idea.

happy_inquisitor wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
I don't know, but the point is,there's a difference between reactors and weapons.

Nuclear reactors generally run at something like 300 celsius
Nuclear weapons generally peak at something approaching 100,000,000 celsius

Same word (nuclear), totally different threat level in terms of temperature.

Plasma sounds kewl and deadly and stuff - but the inside of a fluorescent light or plasma TV is really not that scary due to the low density of the plasma. We know little about 40k plasma reactors other than that walking in entirely unprotected would be a very bad idea.

"Plasma Reactor" is a misnomer in the first place. It takes energy to convert a gas into plasma and it takes energy to keep it a plasma once it gets there, so by itself plasma isn't useful as a source of energy or even as a storage medium.

Where plasma comes into energy generation is when you start talking about fusion reactions, and even there "a plasma reaction" isn't the right way to think about it. Compare it to a combustion engine; hydrogen gas is the equivament of gasoline, plasma inside the reactor's magnetic bubble is the equivalent of atomized gasoline compressed inside a cylinder. It's not "a plasma reaction" for the same reason it's not "an atomized gasoline reaction".

There is actually something properly called a plasma reaction, but it's part of the manufacturing process for microchips.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Space Marine flags are capable of causing plasma weapons to explode entirely in the direction of an enemy unit. (The wording of the Ancient's Banner does not specify enemy action, so if an overloaded plasma gun rolls a 1 you get a chance to fire with it a second time.)

-The lowliest space marine scout can quickly return to battle after an apothecary tells them to “walk it off,” even if they just got obliterated by a volcano cannon.

-The mightiest space marine heroes with incredible force fields, custom armor, and unnatural resilience, will never return after being rendered unconscious or otherwise unable to fight. The apothecary won’t even attempt to help them.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Tea time is sacred and only a heathen would dare violate its sanctity.

Some guys in Boston disagreed about 240 or so years ago...