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 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

pm713 wrote:But there always going to be that bit of me thinking "instead of all this Gathering Storm stuff we could have had Cardinal Bucharis".

That could have been cool, but the issue I felt was that 999.M41 felt too saturated - like pressure building up in a valve. Filling stuff up behind the valve wouldn't have prevented the build-up of lore at 999.M41. Gathering Storm gave enough breathing room to flesh out and add more to the "current" timeline.

Morgasm the Powerfull wrote:I do have to agree that Gathering and its follow up was a logical - but still too extreme, in my opinion - way to go forward.

That's fair enough. It was logical, and I think it was okay, but if you disagree, you're allowed that opinion.

Sadly making campaings and stories like Beast Rising tend to hit a snag with GWs modern policy of only making fluff to support models - for example, atleast according to a rumor, the intended ending with Men of Iron had to be cut from Beast Rising, since they don't have models. I doubt modern Gw is willing to make Eye of Terror type campaings full of armylist and units that need to be converted and proxied - let alone making models of limited use for, say, soldiers of Nova Terra for a supplement set during Nova Terra Interregnum.

And how would the models/units from 40k look any different than the ones in the Nova Terra Interregnum?

As we know, by the Scouring, Mark 7 Aquila armour was in circulation, guardsmen can already be in a massive variety of uniforms and aesthetic, so that's no difference. I doubt any other faction changed aesthetic sufficiently, so it probably isn't the models completely affecting things. I won't deny that Beast Rising was like that, but considering that GW hadn't really done any Eye of Terror things for quite a while in 5th-7th (and then did a similar one for the Fate of Konor), I don't think it's a nu-GW problem.

Why do you need to wait for GW to make a campaign? There's enough room in the setting to forge your own.

Andykp wrote:Special characters suck. Never liked the idea of them. They shouldn’t be around unless it’s a game about them so Jeff is right.

Why not? If you're taking an Ultramarines battle company, and you're taking a Captain, you have a 1 in 10 chance of that captain being Sicarius. In fact, it's closer to 1 in 4, because the Captains of the 1st and 10th Companies only really deploy with their respective companies (which don't form battle companies), and the reserve companies are less often deployed, so your main options are the 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th Companies. Therefore, in an Ultramarines Battle Company, you have a 25% chance that it would be Sicarius who is commanding it.

Because it’s dull. If you want to play with the captain of the 2nd company or whatever you should be able to create your own character and use your own imagination. I don’t hate them I just don’t use them or enjoy them. They limit the game and when the turn up every where it gets silly. That sanginor or what ever it’s called is supposed to turn up whenever the blood angels were in great peril but was never off the battle field. Guiliman is never away either. Leading every minor skirmish and scrap.

Your 2nd Company Captain doesn't have to be of the same timeline. Maybe Cato was his replacement or Cato was replaced BY him.

It isn't hard, folks. However, the big Chapters will have Characters associated with them and, as a result, those characters are gonna have wargear they prefer.

I never said it was hard to ignore them. I do it all the time it’s just that they are there and other people bring them. Used to be a rule that you had to agree the use of special characters before the game. That was good. No.

Andykp wrote:
I never said it was hard to ignore them. I do it all the time it’s just that they are there and other people bring them. Used to be a rule that you had to agree the use of special characters before the game. That was good. No.

That is basically still a rule. If I really don't enjoy playing against something or someone, don't play them. Further it's not really special characters in general that are an issue. It's just that certain ones are better than others just like certain generic units are better than others. If you changed Bobby Gs name to generic super marine, he would still show up all the time because he's good. Conversely I don't remember the last time I saw any special blood angels characters.

Andykp wrote:
I never said it was hard to ignore them. I do it all the time it’s just that they are there and other people bring them. Used to be a rule that you had to agree the use of special characters before the game. That was good. No.

They're only bringing special characters if they're good. Pray tell the last time you saw Farsight, Shadowsun, and Aunshi this edition?

Probably one of the following;

- That Orks just know how to fix things (including other orks) because it's in their DNA. Why not go with the more interesting and plausible idea that they watch, learn and experiment? How does a dok know how to remove an orks arm without killing him? Because he removed a bunch of arms till he figured out how to do it without killing said ork (then started experimenting with attaching new bits...). How does an ork know how to build an engine? Because he's spent his entire life watching others and helping them to build engines, take them apart, refine them and rebuild them again. It makes far more sense than the DNA explanation.
- That there's only 6 tribes of orks in the whole galaxy (unless this has changed recently?). Surely each group of orks, whether on a planet, or a ship or wherever would form its own unique tribal system?
- That Tyranids come from another galaxy. It's just about plausible that they somehow developed space travel and are organisms that can withstand the rigours of space, but to have them travel from another galaxy, that's pushing it.
- That orbital bombardment isn't the first choice of virtually every race. There's no game without it, which is why really the various authors could have done with dialling in their desire for planet wide wars, because it just makes the lack of more orbital bombardments look silly. That's more a minor gripe.
- Anything that attempts to move the clock closer to or beyond midnight. The 40K universe is not a story, it's a setting. Telling stories within it is fine, especially if you want to sell books or new models, but once you start moving the story on you create an expectation that things will move places, which they really can't and don't need to.
- Cypher. At this point Cypher is just the penultimate season of the tv show Lost. Nobody knows what's going on, not even the writers. And nobody really knows where it's going or how it will end, least of all the writers. Mysterious character that shows up now and again, so you can use him on the tabletop without ever really having to explain what he's doing = fine. Trying to give him a story with an end = miscast.
- Bringing back Gulliman to "fix" things. The Imperium is supposed to be broken. That's what makes it interesting. Stop trying to fix it.

Bringing back Gulliman to "fix" things. The Imperium is supposed to be broken. That's what makes it interesting. Stop trying to fix it.

I don't see Gulliman fixing the IoM, what I do see him being sued for is to make mild changes to the setting that would be benifical for the setting, the Ultimate example I sue is the codex astartes, the changes Gulliman made BASICLY amount to "now you can deploy 3 squads of devestators in 3rd company colours without breaking canon"

bouncingboredom wrote:
Probably one of the following;

- That Orks just know how to fix things (including other orks) because it's in their DNA. Why not go with the more interesting and plausible idea that they watch, learn and experiment? How does a dok know how to remove an orks arm without killing him? Because he removed a bunch of arms till he figured out how to do it without killing said ork (then started experimenting with attaching new bits...). How does an ork know how to build an engine? Because he's spent his entire life watching others and helping them to build engines, take them apart, refine them and rebuild them again. It makes far more sense than the DNA explanation.

The knowledge in the DNA isn't natural though. The old ones either made or modified them to use them as weapons. If the US army could program babies to know how to be a good soldier or engineer they would in a heart beat. Orks have everything they need to rapidly start Orking with out having to learn or do all that much experimentation.

HoundsofDemos wrote:


The knowledge in the DNA isn't natural though. The old ones either made or modified them to use them as weapons. If the US army could program babies to know how to be a good soldier or engineer they would in a heart beat. Orks have everything they need to rapidly start Orking with out having to learn or do all that much experimentation.

Just always seemed a little lame to me. It makes orks less interesting.

 Albino Squirrel wrote:
Okay, so the fact that knowing a daemon's "true name" gives you complete power over them is also very stupid fluff. Probably not the worst lore in 40k, but pretty bad.

True names giving complete mastery is borrowed from folklore and/or ripped directly from other, better works, among which is Ursula Le Guin’s excellent ‘A Wizard Of Earthsea’. And ‘Rumpelstikskin’!

 JohnnyHell wrote:

 Albino Squirrel wrote:
Okay, so the fact that knowing a daemon's "true name" gives you complete power over them is also very stupid fluff. Probably not the worst lore in 40k, but pretty bad.

True names giving complete mastery is borrowed from folklore and/or ripped directly from other, better works, among which is Ursula Le Guin’s excellent ‘A Wizard Of Earthsea’. And ‘Rumpelstikskin’!

or in fact ancient mythology......

 Mr Morden wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:

 Albino Squirrel wrote:
Okay, so the fact that knowing a daemon's "true name" gives you complete power over them is also very stupid fluff. Probably not the worst lore in 40k, but pretty bad.

True names giving complete mastery is borrowed from folklore and/or ripped directly from other, better works, among which is Ursula Le Guin’s excellent ‘A Wizard Of Earthsea’. And ‘Rumpelstikskin’!

or in fact ancient mythology......

yup as I said one of the earliest stories is, perhaps coincidentaly, how Horus became king of the gods of egypt.

bouncingboredom wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:


The knowledge in the DNA isn't natural though. The old ones either made or modified them to use them as weapons. If the US army could program babies to know how to be a good soldier or engineer they would in a heart beat. Orks have everything they need to rapidly start Orking with out having to learn or do all that much experimentation.

Just always seemed a little lame to me. It makes orks less interesting.

I feel completely the opposite. Having orks be yet another species that learns the same way we do... Well, vanilla isn't very green.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:


I feel completely the opposite. Having orks be yet another species that learns the same way we do... Well, vanilla isn't very green.

The way I view it, the Imperium tries to teach people as little as possible and what it does teach is strictly limited. The Eldar teach through careful tutoring and long hours spent mastering their craft. Orks should just kind of stumble, bodge and bluff their way through it.

A couple of lore points that I think are stupid;

Perpetuals
Theory (widely quoted as fact) that Ork tech works because of a gestalt psychic field
Random gate to Realm of Chaos being retconned into Commorragh

But to be honest 40k lore is mostly pretty cool, and certainly is the thing that keeps dragging me back to the game!

A lot of stuff released after 5th/6th edition was bad, 5th was the golden age and now they don't know how to do good fluff.
Sometimes, there are good things, but usually we get Cawlliman Mary sue lore breaking stuff because it is cool to have big men doing big things instead of a well described setting that took decades to make...
10 000 years to explore, and yet they retconned the good old Eye of Terror campaign...
When we got The Beast Arise, I thought it was eventually time to get the same treatment we got with The Horus Heresy but for others events, I was wrong.
999M41 SHOULD be saturated, it is the End Time and the clock is closing to midnight, the closer we get the more events happen: like tyranids and necrons wakening

All of this pales in comparison to C.S. GOTO.
Then again Goto was a black library writer.
Still from Lelith Hesperax living in the Eye of terror and beeing a slaneshi follower, to Terminators doing backflipps i think it is save to assume that this was the worst possible lore ever written under the 40 K license / brand.
Heck "if the emperor had a text to speech device" is better in regards to lore and stringent writing then what he was capable of doing, and this show is simply put a satire version of 40k.

Not Online!!! wrote:
All of this pales in comparison to C.S. GOTO.
Then again Goto was a black library writer.
Still from Lelith Hesperax living in the Eye of terror and beeing a slaneshi follower, to Terminators doing backflipps i think it is save to assume that this was the worst possible lore ever written under the 40 K license / brand.
Heck "if the emperor had a text to speech device" is better in regards to lore and stringent writing then what he was capable of doing, and this show is simply put a satire version of 40k.

...and whilst being unfunny and awful it’s STILL better than Goto’s writing.

 JohnnyHell wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
All of this pales in comparison to C.S. GOTO.
Then again Goto was a black library writer.
Still from Lelith Hesperax living in the Eye of terror and beeing a slaneshi follower, to Terminators doing backflipps i think it is save to assume that this was the worst possible lore ever written under the 40 K license / brand.
Heck "if the emperor had a text to speech device" is better in regards to lore and stringent writing then what he was capable of doing, and this show is simply put a satire version of 40k.

...and whilst being unfunny and awful it’s STILL better than Goto’s writing.

Actually the show is preety good. Basically the old not- so- serious tone of oldschool 40 cranked up to 11. Some like it for that, others not so much because it isn't grimmdark enough. (albeit it still fits as grimmderp.) But GOTO, now that, well, thing, it scares me. It seriously does, how can one write so incompetent in a well established lore universe, i mean i have seen better fanfiction of 40k then what GOTO pulled.

 godardc wrote:
A lot of stuff released after 5th/6th edition was bad, 5th was the golden age and now they don't know how to do good fluff.
Sometimes, there are good things, but usually we get Cawlliman Mary sue lore breaking stuff because it is cool to have big men doing big things instead of a well described setting that took decades to make...
10 000 years to explore, and yet they retconned the good old Eye of Terror campaign...
When we got The Beast Arise, I thought it was eventually time to get the same treatment we got with The Horus Heresy but for others events, I was wrong.
999M41 SHOULD be saturated, it is the End Time and the clock is closing to midnight, the closer we get the more events happen: like tyranids and necrons wakening

yup 5th edition was the height of 40k lore! Kaldor Dragio, the Spirtual Liege! Wolves riding Wolves that shoot bees from their mouth! Amazing Lore!

BrianDavion wrote:

 godardc wrote:
A lot of stuff released after 5th/6th edition was bad, 5th was the golden age and now they don't know how to do good fluff.
Sometimes, there are good things, but usually we get Cawlliman Mary sue lore breaking stuff because it is cool to have big men doing big things instead of a well described setting that took decades to make...
10 000 years to explore, and yet they retconned the good old Eye of Terror campaign...
When we got The Beast Arise, I thought it was eventually time to get the same treatment we got with The Horus Heresy but for others events, I was wrong.
999M41 SHOULD be saturated, it is the End Time and the clock is closing to midnight, the closer we get the more events happen: like tyranids and necrons wakening

yup 5th edition was the height of 40k lore! Kaldor Dragio, the Spirtual Liege! Wolves riding Wolves that shoot bees from their mouth! Amazing Lore!

The old Eye of Terror campaign was a great one story wise, but some of it was pure undiluted cheese on the tebletop.
On the plus side it gave us the lost and the damned army list, which was at that time probably one of the fluffiest and best written lists they ever gave out. Sadly they just retconned it away.

Not Online!!! wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 godardc wrote:
A lot of stuff released after 5th/6th edition was bad, 5th was the golden age and now they don't know how to do good fluff.
Sometimes, there are good things, but usually we get Cawlliman Mary sue lore breaking stuff because it is cool to have big men doing big things instead of a well described setting that took decades to make...
10 000 years to explore, and yet they retconned the good old Eye of Terror campaign...
When we got The Beast Arise, I thought it was eventually time to get the same treatment we got with The Horus Heresy but for others events, I was wrong.
999M41 SHOULD be saturated, it is the End Time and the clock is closing to midnight, the closer we get the more events happen: like tyranids and necrons wakening

yup 5th edition was the height of 40k lore! Kaldor Dragio, the Spirtual Liege! Wolves riding Wolves that shoot bees from their mouth! Amazing Lore!

The old Eye of Terror campaign was a great one story wise, but some of it was pure undiluted cheese on the tebletop.
On the plus side it gave us the lost and the damned army list, which was at that time probably one of the fluffiest and best written lists they ever gave out. Sadly they just retconned it away.

now that the renegedes FW list has been squatted I'm hoping GW introduces a modern version of it

BrianDavion wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 godardc wrote:
A lot of stuff released after 5th/6th edition was bad, 5th was the golden age and now they don't know how to do good fluff.
Sometimes, there are good things, but usually we get Cawlliman Mary sue lore breaking stuff because it is cool to have big men doing big things instead of a well described setting that took decades to make...
10 000 years to explore, and yet they retconned the good old Eye of Terror campaign...
When we got The Beast Arise, I thought it was eventually time to get the same treatment we got with The Horus Heresy but for others events, I was wrong.
999M41 SHOULD be saturated, it is the End Time and the clock is closing to midnight, the closer we get the more events happen: like tyranids and necrons wakening

yup 5th edition was the height of 40k lore! Kaldor Dragio, the Spirtual Liege! Wolves riding Wolves that shoot bees from their mouth! Amazing Lore!

The old Eye of Terror campaign was a great one story wise, but some of it was pure undiluted cheese on the tebletop.
On the plus side it gave us the lost and the damned army list, which was at that time probably one of the fluffiest and best written lists they ever gave out. Sadly they just retconned it away.

now that the renegedes FW list has been squatted I'm hoping GW introduces a modern version of it

I personally rather have the FW team doing the R&H stuff, since Vraks and the 7th book were huge sucesses. Fun armies that were fluffy and at the same time actually viable to play. (albeit the vraks one of seventh and certain formations were totaly broken, but 7th was anyways at the end a dick measuring contest of whichone could bring the most op allied cheese and formation spam.)
I guess i could live with GW making it IF, they capture the feel and capability aswell as customability of the 13th IA list. (needless to say i also want the models to be in the same style, because i like them more then the cultists, aswell as the fact that the autoguns they made sofar are just shoulderstockless in most cases which annoys me heavily.

IMHO FW works best as a source of expansions rather then producing entire army lists.

BrianDavion wrote:
IMHO FW works best as a source of expansions rather then producing entire army lists.

Depends, i feel they screw up more if they just expand rossters. Normaly if they write a whole army (Krieg/ R&H,etc.) they are way weaker and or more gimmicky, compared to the added dreadnoughts and or the scorpious or sicarian at their introduction. Frankly atm GW and FW do a better job at balancing but that came with the CA and certain other stuff that.

Regardless and back on topic: Other then GOTO i can not really fathom anything worse than that, except maybe the surprise that cawl pulled out nigh infinite primaris and extra equipment whilest not beeing capable of just reequiping regular marines with bolterrifles....
No seriously why can he equip all primaris and give them out like candy on halloween but can not give out enough bolterrifles for regular marines? Surely a bolterrifle is easier to make then a marine, most certainly easier then a primaris marine right?

Not Online!!! wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
All of this pales in comparison to C.S. GOTO.
Then again Goto was a black library writer.
Still from Lelith Hesperax living in the Eye of terror and beeing a slaneshi follower, to Terminators doing backflipps i think it is save to assume that this was the worst possible lore ever written under the 40 K license / brand.
Heck "if the emperor had a text to speech device" is better in regards to lore and stringent writing then what he was capable of doing, and this show is simply put a satire version of 40k.

...and whilst being unfunny and awful it’s STILL better than Goto’s writing.

Actually the show is preety good. Basically the old not- so- serious tone of oldschool 40 cranked up to 11. Some like it for that, others not so much because it isn't grimmdark enough. (albeit it still fits as grimmderp.) But GOTO, now that, well, thing, it scares me. It seriously does, how can one write so incompetent in a well established lore universe, i mean i have seen better fanfiction of 40k then what GOTO pulled.

It’s really unfunny. Not because of grimdark levels but because it thinks homophonic slurs are hillllarrrrious. Could have been great, squandered it on unfunny ‘jokes’. Pathetic.

Not Online!!! wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
IMHO FW works best as a source of expansions rather then producing entire army lists.

Depends, i feel they screw up more if they just expand rossters. Normaly if they write a whole army (Krieg/ R&H,etc.) they are way weaker and or more gimmicky, compared to the added dreadnoughts and or the scorpious or sicarian at their introduction. Frankly atm GW and FW do a better job at balancing but that came with the CA and certain other stuff that.

Regardless and back on topic: Other then GOTO i can not really fathom anything worse than that, except maybe the surprise that cawl pulled out nigh infinite primaris and extra equipment whilest not beeing capable of just reequiping regular marines with bolterrifles....
No seriously why can he equip all primaris and give them out like candy on halloween but can not give out enough bolterrifles for regular marines? Surely a bolterrifle is easier to make then a marine, most certainly easier then a primaris marine right?

proably because the Primaris Marines had a central distrubution point for the gear, Cawl could make an exact estimate of how many where needed. the weapons may also be designed to work best with MK X armor (targeting equipment in the helmet etc)logistics is complicated. And one could also ask tht question of just about EVERY piece of special equipment in the Marine arsenal. Why don't ALL Marines have terminator armor? Why don't all marines have special issue ammo etc

BrianDavion wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
IMHO FW works best as a source of expansions rather then producing entire army lists.

Depends, i feel they screw up more if they just expand rossters. Normaly if they write a whole army (Krieg/ R&H,etc.) they are way weaker and or more gimmicky, compared to the added dreadnoughts and or the scorpious or sicarian at their introduction. Frankly atm GW and FW do a better job at balancing but that came with the CA and certain other stuff that.

Regardless and back on topic: Other then GOTO i can not really fathom anything worse than that, except maybe the surprise that cawl pulled out nigh infinite primaris and extra equipment whilest not beeing capable of just reequiping regular marines with bolterrifles....
No seriously why can he equip all primaris and give them out like candy on halloween but can not give out enough bolterrifles for regular marines? Surely a bolterrifle is easier to make then a marine, most certainly easier then a primaris marine right?

proably because the Primaris Marines had a central distrubution point for the gear, Cawl could make an exact estimate of how many where needed. the weapons may also be designed to work best with MK X armor (targeting equipment in the helmet etc)logistics is complicated. And one could also ask tht question of just about EVERY piece of special equipment in the Marine arsenal. Why don't ALL Marines have terminator armor? Why don't all marines have special issue ammo etc

Seriously ? Logistics?
Don't even start a logistical debate, because the average Bolter was and still is more then enough to deal with nearly anything from a lore perspective. Because now you manufacture 2 types you only have half the previous output. Logistical logical would've been to either
A) Beginn mass production with the intention of giving a Boltrifle to every Marine
B) and even more reasonable, Don't build boltrifles in the first place, because the Bolter is good enough and allready can be manufactured in bigger quantities



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JohnnyHell wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
All of this pales in comparison to C.S. GOTO.
Then again Goto was a black library writer.
Still from Lelith Hesperax living in the Eye of terror and beeing a slaneshi follower, to Terminators doing backflipps i think it is save to assume that this was the worst possible lore ever written under the 40 K license / brand.
Heck "if the emperor had a text to speech device" is better in regards to lore and stringent writing then what he was capable of doing, and this show is simply put a satire version of 40k.

...and whilst being unfunny and awful it’s STILL better than Goto’s writing.

Actually the show is preety good. Basically the old not- so- serious tone of oldschool 40 cranked up to 11. Some like it for that, others not so much because it isn't grimmdark enough. (albeit it still fits as grimmderp.) But GOTO, now that, well, thing, it scares me. It seriously does, how can one write so incompetent in a well established lore universe, i mean i have seen better fanfiction of 40k then what GOTO pulled.

It’s really unfunny. Not because of grimdark levels but because it thinks homophonic slurs are hillllarrrrious. Could have been great, squandered it on unfunny ‘jokes’. Pathetic.

Homophonic?
do you mean Homophobic right? when and were would that be?
Also why does that seem to trigger you so much?

Text Speech Device is just everything wrong with 1d4chan hyperboles cranked up 5×. They don't always grasp the implications of the lore and they hardly do anything funny.

Post 2018/08/19 17:22:32 Subject: Re:Worst lore ever written?
BrianDavion wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
IMHO FW works best as a source of expansions rather then producing entire army lists.


Depends, i feel they screw up more if they just expand rossters. Normaly if they write a whole army (Krieg/ R&H,etc.) they are way weaker and or more gimmicky, compared to the added dreadnoughts and or the scorpious or sicarian at their introduction. Frankly atm GW and FW do a better job at balancing but that came with the CA and certain other stuff that.

Regardless and back on topic: Other then GOTO i can not really fathom anything worse than that, except maybe the surprise that cawl pulled out nigh infinite primaris and extra equipment whilest not beeing capable of just reequiping regular marines with bolterrifles....
No seriously why can he equip all primaris and give them out like candy on halloween but can not give out enough bolterrifles for regular marines? Surely a bolterrifle is easier to make then a marine, most certainly easier then a primaris marine right?


proably because the Primaris Marines had a central distrubution point for the gear, Cawl could make an exact estimate of how many where needed. the weapons may also be designed to work best with MK X armor (targeting equipment in the helmet etc)logistics is complicated. And one could also ask tht question of just about EVERY piece of special equipment in the Marine arsenal. Why don't ALL Marines have terminator armor? Why don't all marines have special issue ammo etc


Seriously ? Logistics?
Don't even start a logistical debate, because the average Bolter was and still is more then enough to deal with nearly anything from a lore perspective. Because now you manufacture 2 types you only have half the previous output. Logistical logical would've been to either
A) Beginn mass production with the intention of giving a Boltrifle to every Marine
B) and even more reasonable, Don't build boltrifles in the first place, because the Bolter is good enough and allready can be manufactured in bigger quantities

yet again these strange logistics issues are hardly unique to bolt rifles. it's also possiable that bolt rifles are just too big for general marines to use and retain their battlefield mobility. Primaris Marines are both bigger and stronger