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 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

AdmiralHalsey wrote:
It can't be they don't have the means to access mass meltaguns I mean, even the sisters of battle can do that...

Even Sisters of Battle have something it means Marines must have the same thing but even better while Sisters get access to nothing that the marines have of course!

Well.... Yeah.

They're Space Marines. They have access to the best the Imperium has to offer, because they're the best of it's fighting forces. The Sisters are ultimately, just the millitant arm of the Church. It'd be really weird for them to have access to the same levels of equipment as the Space Marines. I mean, the Space Marines are associated with the Emperor. Sisters are a much later edition to the Imperiums shakey command structure.

Martel732 wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:
a few things to note. GW really feths up 3+ save models. I think they are assuming a 3+ is still a 3+ (which it was still overpriced when it was) these days the pleathora of ap 4-5 weapons in the game before that marines just laughed off, now turn your power armor into flakk armor or at best carapace armor, that's a huge swath of weapons in the game making marines 16% less durable. So instead of marines being 13ppm they need to start out at a base of 11, as a bare minimum. That's the most expedient way to fix marines.

Did you forget the part where they now get a save vs old AP 2-3 weapons?

That actually helps a lot less than you think it would.

So guard are too tough with a 5+, but a space marine who still gets a save vs. Plasma doesn't help. 5+ vs. AP-2, 6+ vs Ap-3. Not to mention potential cover bonus.


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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
I'm not sure tournament statistics show big wins for your style of list either, so I could probably make a mirrored claim. Or just claim that ITC has limited relevance to the majority of the player base at that. The holy "proof" of tournament statistics has its limits.

My style of lists for 8th definitely have not shown up I know, as they're basically all experiments and theories from extensive Mathhammer, observation, and tournament trends and counters, and so on. However the trends can be followed pretty easily for this edition (so yes I do get annoyed with people who don't understand something showing up once in a blue moon isn't proof) and I've made several correct calls in 6th and 7th, have I not?

No credit is given. The meta has changed quickly over the past 8 months and ITC appears to give different statistical results than BRB, CA, and Open War missions, which probably represent the vast majority of games "in the wild".

That post also makes it sound like you don't play much. Just curious.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AdmiralHalsey wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

AdmiralHalsey wrote:
I confess it is a little odd that Imperial Guardsmen and Space Marines have access to the exact same number and type of weapons, except for Grav and only because that's a recent kit and nu mod nu roolz.

Like. They're SPACE MARINES. Surely the Imperum can bend the rules so they can have two melta guns per 5 men, not one? Guardsmen are expendable and cost less than their weapons. Surely the marine is more expensive than the meltagun? It can't be they don't have the means to access mass meltaguns I mean, even the sisters of battle can do that...

Adding flexibility like that to your average tactical squad would go a long way to making them more playable.

It's a lot odd. The squads Sgt. having a special weapon is weird, the number of special weapons is weird, the inflexability is weird, the inability to carry a CCW and a Rifle equivalent is weird. An actual General would look at this and go cross eyed.

Ah. Good old Reboot Girlieman.
It's His fault. That's why the Primaris have no options at all. Clearly allowing tacticals the tiny bit of flexibility they do have was a concession to another primarch. Perhaps Magnus. He likes a bit of a change.

The Tactical Squad and its loadout is iconic in and of itself. Don't mess with it. This also helps the identity of CSM in that they have less regimented equipment options.

Imo changes to tac marines should not interfere with their aesthetic. Changes like "Tacs get to fire an extra shot with bolters." are much peferrable.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:
a few things to note. GW really feths up 3+ save models. I think they are assuming a 3+ is still a 3+ (which it was still overpriced when it was) these days the pleathora of ap 4-5 weapons in the game before that marines just laughed off, now turn your power armor into flakk armor or at best carapace armor, that's a huge swath of weapons in the game making marines 16% less durable. So instead of marines being 13ppm they need to start out at a base of 11, as a bare minimum. That's the most expedient way to fix marines.

Did you forget the part where they now get a save vs old AP 2-3 weapons?

That actually helps a lot less than you think it would.

So guard are too tough with a 5+, but a space marine who still gets a save vs. Plasma doesn't help. 5+ vs. AP-2, 6+ vs Ap-3. Not to mention potential cover bonus.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
I'm not sure tournament statistics show big wins for your style of list either, so I could probably make a mirrored claim. Or just claim that ITC has limited relevance to the majority of the player base at that. The holy "proof" of tournament statistics has its limits.

My style of lists for 8th definitely have not shown up I know, as they're basically all experiments and theories from extensive Mathhammer, observation, and tournament trends and counters, and so on. However the trends can be followed pretty easily for this edition (so yes I do get annoyed with people who don't understand something showing up once in a blue moon isn't proof) and I've made several correct calls in 6th and 7th, have I not?

No credit is given. The meta has changed quickly over the past 8 months and ITC appears to give different statistical results than BRB, CA, and Open War missions, which probably represent the vast majority of games "in the wild".

That post also makes it sound like you don't play much. Just curious.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AdmiralHalsey wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

AdmiralHalsey wrote:
I confess it is a little odd that Imperial Guardsmen and Space Marines have access to the exact same number and type of weapons, except for Grav and only because that's a recent kit and nu mod nu roolz.

Like. They're SPACE MARINES. Surely the Imperum can bend the rules so they can have two melta guns per 5 men, not one? Guardsmen are expendable and cost less than their weapons. Surely the marine is more expensive than the meltagun? It can't be they don't have the means to access mass meltaguns I mean, even the sisters of battle can do that...

Adding flexibility like that to your average tactical squad would go a long way to making them more playable.

It's a lot odd. The squads Sgt. having a special weapon is weird, the number of special weapons is weird, the inflexability is weird, the inability to carry a CCW and a Rifle equivalent is weird. An actual General would look at this and go cross eyed.

Ah. Good old Reboot Girlieman.
It's His fault. That's why the Primaris have no options at all. Clearly allowing tacticals the tiny bit of flexibility they do have was a concession to another primarch. Perhaps Magnus. He likes a bit of a change.

The Tactical Squad and its loadout is iconic in and of itself. Don't mess with it. This also helps the identity of CSM in that they have less regimented equipment options.

Imo changes to tac marines should not interfere with their aesthetic. Changes like "Tacs get to fire an extra shot with bolters." are much peferrable.

1. That Guardsman not getting a save is 4 points. The Marine getting a 6+ save is 13 points. You're skipping points entirely.
2. I'm not asking "credit" for anything. I'm asking how many incorrect calls I've made in 6th/7th and so far in 8th.
Regarding how much I play, I gotta play with borrowed models at the moment so it's a few times a month for the time being. That doesn't have bearing on whether or not I can do basic math though when you forget that "save" the Marine has is essentially non-existent. On a model that is 3x the cost.
3. Nobody cares about what you think is iconic. That has no bearing on game balance. The 1 Special/1 Heavy at 10 dudes is outdated and needs to go.

 Insectum7 wrote:
The Tactical Squad and its loadout is iconic in and of itself. Don't mess with it. This also helps the identity of CSM in that they have less regimented equipment options.

Imo changes to tac marines should not interfere with their aesthetic. Changes like "Tacs get to fire an extra shot with bolters." are much peferrable.

Calvary was Iconic in armies, they went away because of thier inability to hold thier own against tanks.

That being said it really dosent matter how you do it just get them the flexability they need to be relavent.

It's iconic, because it's always been like that.
It's always been like that, because that's the bits that GW Included in their first plastic SM Box.

I don't want the rules for the game to be forever tied to some GW Marketing dude's choice for the contents of a SM Box back in the early 90's, thanks.

I found the first cardboard dreadnought iconic too. Or the Sentinal with the Guardsman with an Assault Cannon sticking out the top. Or 2nd Ed's damage tables, or...

the lack of dispersal in regards to special/heavy weapons with Marine squads, is just weird. They're supposed to be the baddest assed mofo's in the galaxy. the entire battle doctrine they follow (codex) woefully pigeonholes them into inflexibility. I would imagine that a full 10 Marine squad should have roughly 2 heavies and 2 specials with a sergeant and a corporal (both armed with either PS or fist and some form of grenade launcher).
the NCO's can use the launchers for marking (smoke), or lobbing grenades while the bulk charges in.

basically they would need to ditch the codex and start over to be more effective.

what changes to the stats I would make? i can't say, but I can agree that any changes need to be mindful of the rest of the game, as soooooo much is based on it.

Regarding marine tacticals, are Combat Squads still a thing? We've allowed
for a squad to split (permanently) at any time during the game, not just at deployment and as long as there are at least 3 models each per new unit. This allows some flexibility without changing any stats, sometimes sacrificing a few so the rest can achieve an objective.

 amanita wrote:
Regarding marine tacticals, are Combat Squads still a thing? We've allowed
for a squad to split (permanently) at any time during the game, not just at deployment and as long as there are at least 3 models each per new unit. This allows some flexibility without changing any stats, sometimes sacrificing a few so the rest can achieve an objective.

Or you can just buy a separate squad...

AdmiralHalsey wrote:
They have access to the best the Imperium has to offer, because they're the best of it's fighting forces.

I'm sorry, that is actually the better marine. Oh wait, the better marine are actually not the best of the Imperium because they are bested by the even better marines. Oh but I forgot, those are bested by the better than the even better marines. Which are bested by the Custodes. Also the Assassins. Also the Inquisitors have better equipment if they want. Also that guy is commanding a legion of warlord titans.

AdmiralHalsey wrote:
The Sisters are ultimately, just the millitant arm of the Church.

The Sisters are ultimately, just the militant arm of the most politically powerful and wealthiest organization in the whole Imperium. How could being the wealthiest organization in the whole Imperium, and having multiple seats among the High Lords of Terra, could result in them having access to more melta? THAT'S A TOTAL MYSTERY!!! (to you, apparently)

When (If) SOB get released in plastic they will receive new kits and options and weapons, many of them 100% new, maybe even things like Grav who knows, I'm sure about that.

I would be stoked if the Tactical Marine and equivalents just dropped to 11 points, and Scouts stayed at 11. They both serve very distinct roles in the army, and Scouts really aren't losing much being the same points as a Tactical.

Add on the special rule to Marine units:

Astartes Boltgun Training- For each to hit roll of a 6 with Boltguns, Bolt Pistols, Bolt RIfles, Heavy Bolters and Storm Bolters by Astartes units counts as 2 hits.

It makes your standard Marine a bit cheaper, and adds a bit of anti-horde to Marines of all flavors.

That would be more than enough for me.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

AdmiralHalsey wrote:
They have access to the best the Imperium has to offer, because they're the best of it's fighting forces.

I'm sorry, that is actually the better marine. Oh wait, the better marine are actually not the best of the Imperium because they are bested by the even better marines. Oh but I forgot, those are bested by the better than the even better marines. Which are bested by the Custodes. Also the Assassins. Also the Inquisitors have better equipment if they want. Also that guy is commanding a legion of warlord titans.

The classic marine dilemma. Not going to lie I got a good kick out of the grey knight thread where they complained about Custodes being better Marines than them.

Of course I get the real point of it, pointing out the grey Knight codex sucked, but there was something magical about watching Grey Knights be upset that they were no longer the 100% best OC donutsteel space Marines anymore.

This is 40k lore in a nutshell. Unless you're a faction that GW really goes out of it's way to use an antagonist/NPC faction (IG, orks, nids) most of your lore in the codex devolves into "Lord smashington went to deltron 3030 and KILLED ALL THE THINGS! ALL. OF. THEM."

Which of course is the point of 40k, everything cranked to 11 to the point of absurdity, but it does feel concerning that perhaps some of the lore writers are taking the setting a bit too seriously.

AdmiralHalsey wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

AdmiralHalsey wrote:
It can't be they don't have the means to access mass meltaguns I mean, even the sisters of battle can do that...

Even Sisters of Battle have something it means Marines must have the same thing but even better while Sisters get access to nothing that the marines have of course!

Well.... Yeah.

They're Space Marines. They have access to the best the Imperium has to offer, because they're the best of it's fighting forces. The Sisters are ultimately, just the millitant arm of the Church. It'd be really weird for them to have access to the same levels of equipment as the Space Marines. I mean, the Space Marines are associated with the Emperor. Sisters are a much later edition to the Imperiums shakey command structure.

I want to point out that the sisters have less access to equipment. They get Storm bolters, Meltaguns, flamers, heavy flamers, multi-meltas, heavy bolters, inferno pistols, and hand flamers.

Space marines get: grav pistols, guns, cannons and combies, plasma guns and cannons, assault cannons, auto cannons, hurricane bolters, las cannons, missile launchers, and that's not including stuff the primaris marines get.

So, one unit of sisters gets four special weapons, and the base unit can take three in five. They still only have a limited selection to choose from. Besides, if you want more special and heavy weapons, just take two 5 man squads, give each sergeant a combi weapon, and take 2 heavy/special weapons of choice. Just call one sarge a corporal or something, and say they're a full squad in fluff. It's what I do.

Honestly I do think the best way to boost Tacticals without drastically changing their identity to be something completely different would be to give them their own ability.
Even something allong a similar vein to Fury of the Legion in 30k where they get to boost their shooting if they don't move (Fury of the Legion itself wouldn't fit or work, but something like "don't move and get 7th Ed Preferred Enemy" could work).

And Marines could probably do with an extra Attack base. You could probably even do that without increasing the Attack stat of Veteran units, and instead have their benefit just be extra Leadership and better weapons and abilities. Of course, that change would definitely require points changes around the board.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Honestly I do think the best way to boost Tacticals without drastically changing their identity to be something completely different would be to give them their own ability.
Even something allong a similar vein to Fury of the Legion in 30k where they get to boost their shooting if they don't move (Fury of the Legion itself wouldn't fit or work, but something like "don't move and get 7th Ed Preferred Enemy" could work).

And Marines could probably do with an extra Attack base. You could probably even do that without increasing the Attack stat of Veteran units, and instead have their benefit just be extra Leadership and better weapons and abilities. Of course, that change would definitely require points changes around the board.

Then you get an inconsistency of Sternguard not getting the same bonus and they're actual vets.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
something like "don't move and get 7th Ed Preferred Enemy" could work

So, you want to give every tactical squad the Dark Angels chapter trait.

Just make them 11 and declare victory. This is making even my head begin to hurt.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Honestly I do think the best way to boost Tacticals without drastically changing their identity to be something completely different would be to give them their own ability.
Even something allong a similar vein to Fury of the Legion in 30k where they get to boost their shooting if they don't move (Fury of the Legion itself wouldn't fit or work, but something like "don't move and get 7th Ed Preferred Enemy" could work).

And Marines could probably do with an extra Attack base. You could probably even do that without increasing the Attack stat of Veteran units, and instead have their benefit just be extra Leadership and better weapons and abilities. Of course, that change would definitely require points changes around the board.

Then you get an inconsistency of Sternguard not getting the same bonus and they're actual vets.

Wait, Sternguard don't already have 2 As? I'm pretty sure they do.

Mmmpi wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
something like "don't move and get 7th Ed Preferred Enemy" could work

So, you want to give every tactical squad the Dark Angels chapter trait.

I will confess, I'd forgotten that was the DA's trait. My usually DA opponent hasn't played since 7th.
That was just an example though, I'm not saying that should be what they actually get.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Honestly I do think the best way to boost Tacticals without drastically changing their identity to be something completely different would be to give them their own ability.
Even something allong a similar vein to Fury of the Legion in 30k where they get to boost their shooting if they don't move (Fury of the Legion itself wouldn't fit or work, but something like "don't move and get 7th Ed Preferred Enemy" could work).

And Marines could probably do with an extra Attack base. You could probably even do that without increasing the Attack stat of Veteran units, and instead have their benefit just be extra Leadership and better weapons and abilities. Of course, that change would definitely require points changes around the board.

Then you get an inconsistency of Sternguard not getting the same bonus and they're actual vets.

Wait, Sternguard don't already have 2 As? I'm pretty sure they do.

Mmmpi wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
something like "don't move and get 7th Ed Preferred Enemy" could work

So, you want to give every tactical squad the Dark Angels chapter trait.

I will confess, I'd forgotten that was the DA's trait. My usually DA opponent hasn't played since 7th.
That was just an example though, I'm not saying that should be what they actually get.

Boy you certainly missed my point didn't you?
I didn't say they had Vet stats, I said they were Vets, and they would somehow forget that.

Its a pretty good point.
Translating fluff to rules I suppose all marines would get a extra Attack except Scouts and Devs

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Honestly I do think the best way to boost Tacticals without drastically changing their identity to be something completely different would be to give them their own ability.
Even something allong a similar vein to Fury of the Legion in 30k where they get to boost their shooting if they don't move (Fury of the Legion itself wouldn't fit or work, but something like "don't move and get 7th Ed Preferred Enemy" could work).

And Marines could probably do with an extra Attack base. You could probably even do that without increasing the Attack stat of Veteran units, and instead have their benefit just be extra Leadership and better weapons and abilities. Of course, that change would definitely require points changes around the board.

Then you get an inconsistency of Sternguard not getting the same bonus and they're actual vets.

Wait, Sternguard don't already have 2 As? I'm pretty sure they do.

Mmmpi wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
something like "don't move and get 7th Ed Preferred Enemy" could work

So, you want to give every tactical squad the Dark Angels chapter trait.

I will confess, I'd forgotten that was the DA's trait. My usually DA opponent hasn't played since 7th.
That was just an example though, I'm not saying that should be what they actually get.

Boy you certainly missed my point didn't you?
I didn't say they had Vet stats, I said they were Vets, and they would somehow forget that.

Maybe explain your point better? Are you referring to them not having the theoretical ability Tactical squads would get?
If so, then the same applies to Terminators, Command Squads and Vanguard Veterans. Does it really matter? Sternguard get their special bolters, access to more combi-weapons, and their own unique stratagem. Them not having the same ability wouldn't mean they're 'forgetting' it, it could very well represent the fact that as veterans, they now fulfil a different role entirely.
If not, then what do you mean.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 amanita wrote:
Regarding marine tacticals, are Combat Squads still a thing? We've allowed
for a squad to split (permanently) at any time during the game, not just at deployment and as long as there are at least 3 models each per new unit. This allows some flexibility without changing any stats, sometimes sacrificing a few so the rest can achieve an objective.

Or you can just buy a separate squad...

Your solution to increasing a unit's flexibility for the same points is to buy another squad?

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

Mmmpi wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
something like "don't move and get 7th Ed Preferred Enemy" could work

So, you want to give every tactical squad the Dark Angels chapter trait.

I will confess, I'd forgotten that was the DA's trait. My usually DA opponent hasn't played since 7th.
That was just an example though, I'm not saying that should be what they actually get.

Just want to start out with saying, what I wrote sounds a bit accusatory, which I want to apologize for.


About the tactical squads/vet squads topic:

I think what he's trying to say is, why do the tactical squads know how to do something and the vet squads don't. While terminators would have different equipment and training, veterans are basically just more experienced tactical squads, so it wouldn't make sense for the tactical marines to get an ability and the vets not to have it too. The fact that Vets don't have objective secured is another example of this. It's basically saying to the effect "I learned how to fold paper cranes in origami class, but when I learned to make paper giraffes later, I forgot the cranes trick."

 amanita wrote:
Regarding marine tacticals, are Combat Squads still a thing? We've allowed
for a squad to split (permanently) at any time during the game, not just at deployment and as long as there are at least 3 models each per new unit. This allows some flexibility without changing any stats, sometimes sacrificing a few so the rest can achieve an objective.

Combatsquadding mid-game with the Stratagem in order to grab 2 objectives or something similar is the only worthwhile use of combat squads.

Combatsquadding a unit during deployment however seems not just pointless, but rather hurts the list, now when sergeants are free.
Why would you not want +1 A, +1 Ld and one additional combi-weapon/powerweapon?
With 2x5 you're also free to take 2 special weapons or 2 heavy weapons if you fancy, while with 1x10 you're stuck with 1 of each.

 MinscS2 wrote:

 amanita wrote:
Regarding marine tacticals, are Combat Squads still a thing? We've allowed
for a squad to split (permanently) at any time during the game, not just at deployment and as long as there are at least 3 models each per new unit. This allows some flexibility without changing any stats, sometimes sacrificing a few so the rest can achieve an objective.

Combatsquadding mid-game with the Stratagem in order to grab 2 objectives or something similar is the only worthwhile use of combat squads.

Combatsquadding a unit during deployment however seems not just pointless, but rather hurts the list, now when sergeants are free.
Why would you not want +1 A, +1 Ld and one additional combi-weapon/powerweapon?
With 2x5 you're also free to take 2 special weapons or 2 heavy weapons if you fancy, while with 1x10 you're stuck with 1 of each.

I mostly agree with this statement, but the one continued use I can see for Combat Squadding is to be able to get 2 units for 1 drop to help with trying to secure that +1 advantage for first turn.

 MinscS2 wrote:

 amanita wrote:
Regarding marine tacticals, are Combat Squads still a thing? We've allowed
for a squad to split (permanently) at any time during the game, not just at deployment and as long as there are at least 3 models each per new unit. This allows some flexibility without changing any stats, sometimes sacrificing a few so the rest can achieve an objective.

Combatsquadding mid-game with the Stratagem in order to grab 2 objectives or something similar is the only worthwhile use of combat squads.

Combatsquadding a unit during deployment however seems not just pointless, but rather hurts the list, now when sergeants are free.
Why would you not want +1 A, +1 Ld and one additional combi-weapon/powerweapon?
With 2x5 you're also free to take 2 special weapons or 2 heavy weapons if you fancy, while with 1x10 you're stuck with 1 of each.

You can change your squad loadouts for the match. I'll often combat squad to get 2 squads of plasma, combi plasma, grav cannon into a Drop Pod to maximize damage output. This leaves me with two 5-man bolter teams which then advance to nab objectives or meet the battle lines. Or other games I can put all the plasmas into the pods, and leave the Grav Cannon with the ground unit to hold center, etc. It actually gives you some extra mission flexibility during deployment.

 amanita wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 amanita wrote:
Regarding marine tacticals, are Combat Squads still a thing? We've allowed
for a squad to split (permanently) at any time during the game, not just at deployment and as long as there are at least 3 models each per new unit. This allows some flexibility without changing any stats, sometimes sacrificing a few so the rest can achieve an objective.

Or you can just buy a separate squad...

Your solution to increasing a unit's flexibility for the same points is to buy another squad?

You get an extra Combi and unit for filling out a detachment. I don't see any way that's a limit to the squad's flexibility.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 MinscS2 wrote:

 amanita wrote:
Regarding marine tacticals, are Combat Squads still a thing? We've allowed
for a squad to split (permanently) at any time during the game, not just at deployment and as long as there are at least 3 models each per new unit. This allows some flexibility without changing any stats, sometimes sacrificing a few so the rest can achieve an objective.

Combatsquadding mid-game with the Stratagem in order to grab 2 objectives or something similar is the only worthwhile use of combat squads.

Combatsquadding a unit during deployment however seems not just pointless, but rather hurts the list, now when sergeants are free.
Why would you not want +1 A, +1 Ld and one additional combi-weapon/powerweapon?
With 2x5 you're also free to take 2 special weapons or 2 heavy weapons if you fancy, while with 1x10 you're stuck with 1 of each.

You can change your squad loadouts for the match. I'll often combat squad to get 2 squads of plasma, combi plasma, grav cannon into a Drop Pod to maximize damage output. This leaves me with two 5-man bolter teams which then advance to nab objectives or meet the battle lines. Or other games I can put all the plasmas into the pods, and leave the Grav Cannon with the ground unit to hold center, etc. It actually gives you some extra mission flexibility during deployment.

That doesn't many any sense when you can just buy your bizarre all-Bolter (WHY) as a separate squad in the first place and get an extra Sergeant...

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
That doesn't many any sense when you can just buy your bizarre all-Bolter (WHY) as a separate squad in the first place and get an extra Sergeant...

I think his point was that Combat Squad lets him get a Heavy, Special, and Combi into a 5 man, so he can fit 2 of said 5-man squads into a pod, giving it a heavy/special weapon density of 6/10, while simultaneously giving him cheap (yes yes for marines, I know they're not Guard), expendable, durable marines that can chill out and do other things in the backfield.

I apologize in advance as I am late to this thread and ithis could already have been said, but... a very big problem with Codex Adeptus Astartes is the Stratagems. They are SO bad when compared to other codexes. Almost all of them are either overpriced, or really situational and specific.

I think it's because there they tried to make specific stratagems for specific units AND chapters... and the marines have such ridiculous diversity they just ended end up with an atom-thin layer of synergy. It's rare to find more than 1 or 2 that are usable.

Honour the Chapter can do work, but costs 3CP
Chapter Master is nice. Again 3CP
Killshot is good if you own (and take) multiple predators - pretty situational.


All the others are bobbins.

Use this when a unit of scout bikes falls back? What?
+1 to wound with Sternguard. Too specific.
Use when an enemy psyker uses a power within 24″ of a Black Templars unit. I mean really.

Awful.

Compare to something like the Blood Angels or Adeptus Custodes who have no subfactions and fewer units... you have the same number of stratagems - OR SOMETIMES MORE - and they are much more concentrated... so you might want to use 2 or 3 of them in a battle.

Instead of zero.

 Silentz wrote:
I apologize in advance as I am late to this thread and ithis could already have been said, but... a very big problem with Codex Adeptus Astartes is the Stratagems. They are SO bad when compared to other codexes. Almost all of them are either overpriced, or really situational and specific.

I think it's because there they tried to make specific stratagems for specific units AND chapters... and the marines have such ridiculous diversity they just ended end up with an atom-thin layer of synergy. It's rare to find more than 1 or 2 that are usable.

Honour the Chapter can do work, but costs 3CP
Chapter Master is nice. Again 3CP
Killshot is good if you own (and take) multiple predators - pretty situational.


All the others are bobbins.

Use this when a unit of scout bikes falls back? What?
+1 to wound with Sternguard. Too specific.
Use when an enemy psyker uses a power within 24″ of a Black Templars unit. I mean really.

Awful.

Compare to something like the Blood Angels or Adeptus Custodes who have no subfactions and fewer units... you have the same number of stratagems - OR SOMETIMES MORE - and they are much more concentrated... so you might want to use 2 or 3 of them in a battle.

Instead of zero.

I actually think this is somewhat true of Guard (yes yes hear me out!)

There are some that are aces. Defensive Gunners, Crush Them, Commissar Tank (kinda), and Take Cover are all pretty good. Grenadiers is alright, if situational, but certainly not bad.

A good number though are bupkis.
Preliminary Bombardment? Yeah, no, thanks.
Reinforcement points and CP for Send in the Next Wave? Yeah, alright.
Fire on My Position: derp herp derp

I dunno. There actually are quite a few good stratagems, but the bad ones are REALLY bad.