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Because we all assumed that the drones (SMS) had it. We all miss-read it, judges too. I was informed the sms can shoot which we all agreed was ok. Not that it mattered. The captain refused to die for the rest of the game lol.

 Ordana wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 KillswitchUK wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Why was there a hammerhead mistake? Did you have 0 practice games and never actually look at the ability in the codex? Can you explain why this rule would be misplayed so egregiously?

Correct, 0 practice games. Never read the rule, just assumed they had it, as did many other tau players at the event (not to deflect, just saying). We even checked the rule at the table with the judge on my epub version of the codex and still miss-read the rule as it looked to us as if the tanks did have FTGG.

Wow, okay. In that case, i retract my statement about this specific instance being intentional.

In retrospect, once you found out this rule was played differently, the best thing to do is resign from the tournament. It sucks but then you don't run into this kind of thing.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 niv-mizzet wrote:
@killswitch
Man, don't try to defend yourself on the internet. It's a bit of a fool's errand. Best defense would be to quietly discuss with the LGT people and get the ban removed. Most of them will take that as proof of innocence. If that can't happen, then let them chatter with what they're gonna chatter about until they get bored of it.

Actually i am glad he's discussing this. Finding out he had 0 games played as Tau actually makes the error more understandable. While there should have been consequences clearly a lifetime ban is not appropriate here.

And how about if you look at the part where he still miss played his Hammerheads the next day (he no longer fired the main gun with FTGG but still did the SMS's)

I guess that depends on how he was corrected I guess?

At this point what can you say, I would expect someone who has never played an army to make insane volumes of mistakes.

 Marmatag wrote:

 Ordana wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 KillswitchUK wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Why was there a hammerhead mistake? Did you have 0 practice games and never actually look at the ability in the codex? Can you explain why this rule would be misplayed so egregiously?

Correct, 0 practice games. Never read the rule, just assumed they had it, as did many other tau players at the event (not to deflect, just saying). We even checked the rule at the table with the judge on my epub version of the codex and still miss-read the rule as it looked to us as if the tanks did have FTGG.

Wow, okay. In that case, i retract my statement about this specific instance being intentional.

In retrospect, once you found out this rule was played differently, the best thing to do is resign from the tournament. It sucks but then you don't run into this kind of thing.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 niv-mizzet wrote:
@killswitch
Man, don't try to defend yourself on the internet. It's a bit of a fool's errand. Best defense would be to quietly discuss with the LGT people and get the ban removed. Most of them will take that as proof of innocence. If that can't happen, then let them chatter with what they're gonna chatter about until they get bored of it.

Actually i am glad he's discussing this. Finding out he had 0 games played as Tau actually makes the error more understandable. While there should have been consequences clearly a lifetime ban is not appropriate here.

And how about if you look at the part where he still miss played his Hammerheads the next day (he no longer fired the main gun with FTGG but still did the SMS's)

I guess that depends on how he was corrected I guess?

At this point what can you say, I would expect someone who has never played an army to make insane volumes of mistakes.

I would expect someone who had a mistake pointed out to them bother to read the actual rule entry. which leaves very little room for such a mistake.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 KillswitchUK wrote:
Because we all assumed that the drones (SMS) had it. We all miss-read it, judges too. I was informed the sms can shoot which we all agreed was ok. Not that it mattered. The captain refused to die for the rest of the game lol.

Except their not drones and no one treats them like drones because then they would be able to detach and forced to fire at the closest target like drones are.

But whatever, why read rules lolz

 Ordana wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 Ordana wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 KillswitchUK wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Why was there a hammerhead mistake? Did you have 0 practice games and never actually look at the ability in the codex? Can you explain why this rule would be misplayed so egregiously?

Correct, 0 practice games. Never read the rule, just assumed they had it, as did many other tau players at the event (not to deflect, just saying). We even checked the rule at the table with the judge on my epub version of the codex and still miss-read the rule as it looked to us as if the tanks did have FTGG.

Wow, okay. In that case, i retract my statement about this specific instance being intentional.

In retrospect, once you found out this rule was played differently, the best thing to do is resign from the tournament. It sucks but then you don't run into this kind of thing.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 niv-mizzet wrote:
@killswitch
Man, don't try to defend yourself on the internet. It's a bit of a fool's errand. Best defense would be to quietly discuss with the LGT people and get the ban removed. Most of them will take that as proof of innocence. If that can't happen, then let them chatter with what they're gonna chatter about until they get bored of it.

Actually i am glad he's discussing this. Finding out he had 0 games played as Tau actually makes the error more understandable. While there should have been consequences clearly a lifetime ban is not appropriate here.

And how about if you look at the part where he still miss played his Hammerheads the next day (he no longer fired the main gun with FTGG but still did the SMS's)

I guess that depends on how he was corrected I guess?

At this point what can you say, I would expect someone who has never played an army to make insane volumes of mistakes.

I would expect someone who had a mistake pointed out to them bother to read the actual rule entry. which leaves very little room for such a mistake.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 KillswitchUK wrote:
Because we all assumed that the drones (SMS) had it. We all miss-read it, judges too. I was informed the sms can shoot which we all agreed was ok. Not that it mattered. The captain refused to die for the rest of the game lol.

Except their not drones and no one treats them like drones because then they would be able to detach and forced to fire at the closest target like drones are.

But whatever, why read rules lolz

I mean I agree that players should be accountable for their rules.

Personally the appropriate action would have been to disqualify him right then and there. Not let him play out the tournament and ban him later.

Kudos for facing the internet fury.

Yeah a thumbs up too Alex.

@ Marmatag - Have you ever made a mistake in a tournament? If yes did you self-DQ?

 KillswitchUK wrote:

 niv-mizzet wrote:
@killswitch
Man, don't try to defend yourself on the internet. It's a bit of a fool's errand. Best defense would be to quietly discuss with the LGT people and get the ban removed. Most of them will take that as proof of innocence. If that can't happen, then let them chatter with what they're gonna chatter about until they get bored of it.

Agreed, problem is the LGT people who promised a public apology and apologised for me for the nonsense they have posted, havn't done so. And that above coment really made me bite. Lies and chinese whispers of the worst kind!

You should screenshot that and expose the fact that these guys are really just out for themselves on this one.




And don't worry about the guys out for your blood. Most of them will move on when they next minor drama comes up.

 Marmatag wrote:
Personally the appropriate action would have been to disqualify him right then and there. Not let him play out the tournament and ban him later.

There is no reason the TO couldn't have done both:
* Immediate DQ solves the issue of cheating up within the current event.
* Lifetime ban prevents problems in future events.

 Marmatag wrote:

I mean I agree that players should be accountable for their rules.
Personally the appropriate action would have been to disqualify him right then and there. Not let him play out the tournament and ban him later.

That was my entire fething point. Innuendo about forgetting rules, bumping models with drinks, or picking up wound dice aside are just that, innuendo. Intentional cheating requires fething INTENT, and unless you can prove INTENT then you have 0 reason to be lifetime banning anyone. You can't seriously say you can prove INTENT on a video that has no sound and a limited view of the players. If they are so concerned with the integrity of the tournament they should have just DQed him on the spot.

But, if they are going to be DQing or lifetime banning him they should do so to Mr. Robinson as well because Geoff made a lot of "mistakes" during play too, as you can plainly see if you watch the video.

 Mmmpi wrote:

Also, if you're going to argue about punishment, I'd appreciate it if you didn't take your cues from the American Pro-Gun Lobby. It's stupid when they do it, and even more so here. It's the easiest way to shred any credibility you may have had. As you noticed happened here. Any claim that you can't do anything because the solution isn't 100% perfect is a fallacy.
Again, Dorito, Peregrine, I agree with you about this. The guy got what he deserved. And anyone else caught doing the same should get the same punishment. Even if that means 75% of the event players have to go. This, like any other activity is lessened by the presence of cheaters, and the people who defend them in the face of their blatant actions, not questionable ones, but blatant, are doing the hobby a disservice. Gaming has enough of a reputation as it is. It doesn't need more on top of this. And maybe if we start holding people to a higher standard, rather then lower, then it's reputation will improve.

Speaking hypothetically here, getting rid of 75% of the playerbase is really not a good way to "help" the hobby, although I think 75% is an exaggeration. If you want to stop cheating and "loose" play at events, the solution is not to ruin the few people that you do catch, it is to simply CATCH all of the people who are doing it. Why aren't all tables recorded like this?

As requested

https://ibb.co/cQRkY8

w1zard wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

I mean I agree that players should be accountable for their rules.
Personally the appropriate action would have been to disqualify him right then and there. Not let him play out the tournament and ban him later.

That was my entire fething point. Innuendo about forgetting rules, bumping models with drinks, or picking up wound dice aside are just that, innuendo. Intentional cheating requires fething INTENT, and unless you can prove INTENT then you have 0 reason to be lifetime banning anyone. You can't seriously say you can prove INTENT on a video that has no sound and a limited view of the players. If they are so concerned with the integrity of the tournament they should have just DQed him on the spot.

But, if they are going to be DQing or lifetime banning him they should do so to Mr. Robinson as well because Geoff made a lot of "mistakes" during play too, as you can plainly see if you watch the video.

Firstly, the organizers of the event have the right to ban anyone they want for NO reason at all.

Secondly, this is not a court of law. You have no reasonable expectation to be held to the same standards as one.

Poasted!

 KillswitchUK wrote:
As requested

https://ibb.co/cQRkY8

Oh lord. They're going to try and hand out more bans. That seems like the worst thing to do right now...

 djones520 wrote:

w1zard wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

I mean I agree that players should be accountable for their rules.
Personally the appropriate action would have been to disqualify him right then and there. Not let him play out the tournament and ban him later.

That was my entire fething point. Innuendo about forgetting rules, bumping models with drinks, or picking up wound dice aside are just that, innuendo. Intentional cheating requires fething INTENT, and unless you can prove INTENT then you have 0 reason to be lifetime banning anyone. You can't seriously say you can prove INTENT on a video that has no sound and a limited view of the players. If they are so concerned with the integrity of the tournament they should have just DQed him on the spot.

But, if they are going to be DQing or lifetime banning him they should do so to Mr. Robinson as well because Geoff made a lot of "mistakes" during play too, as you can plainly see if you watch the video.

Firstly, the organizers of the event have the right to ban anyone they want for NO reason at all.

Secondly, this is not a court of law. You have no reasonable expectation to be held to the same standards as one.

Fair enough.

Then you have no right to complain when people complain that is was done unfairly, or applied unevenly.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 KillswitchUK wrote:
As requested

https://ibb.co/cQRkY8

Oh lord. They're going to try and hand out more bans. That seems like the worst thing to do right now...

I said I dont want anyone else put under this heat as its not fair on anyone making honest mistakes. One video i watched I noticed 15 "mistakes" in 26 minutes of footage.

 KillswitchUK wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 KillswitchUK wrote:
As requested

https://ibb.co/cQRkY8

Oh lord. They're going to try and hand out more bans. That seems like the worst thing to do right now...

I said I dont want anyone else put under this heat as its not fair on anyone making honest mistakes. One video i watched I noticed 15 "mistakes" in 26 minutes of footage.

Alas. Problem.. How do you tell a honest tired, hot or so mistake from a cheat. A tired mid read from a genuine attempt to gain advantage.

Its a different one to gauge.

Because not one of the points mentioned int he video gained me an advantage. The knock with my water i didnt even notice because i was leaning over looking elsewhere and rubbing my head because i had a splitting headache. If i noticed i would have moved it back

Oh no, it was quality innuendo.

And you say hostility, I say disagree with their argument methods, the basis of their argument, and the way they try to wiggle their way out of responsibility for the position they took, while still trying to support it.

At last, all the cheaters that are shaming our community will be banned, and the rest will be afraid of doing it again.
Tomorrow, «competitive» 40k will be better.
Eventually, this LGT proved useful !

 Mmmpi wrote:
Oh no, it was quality innuendo.

And you say hostility, I say disagree with their argument methods, the basis of their argument, and the way they try to wiggle their way out of responsibility for the position they took, while still trying to support it.

Let me ask you again, do you think Geoff should be banned, considering he made some "mistakes" during play as well. You can watch the video and clearly see.

Do you think everyone else who makes such mistakes should be banned too?

When does a genuinely innocent mistake turn into an intentional act of cheating? As you can plainly see by this thread it is very hard to tell. Banning everyone who makes "mistakes" like this on the off chance they were doing it intentionally means a large chunk of the community (including myself, and probably you too) would be lifetime banned from competitive play.

w1zard wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:
Oh no, it was quality innuendo.

And you say hostility, I say disagree with their argument methods, the basis of their argument, and the way they try to wiggle their way out of responsibility for the position they took, while still trying to support it.

Let me ask you again, do you think Geoff should be banned, considering he made some "mistakes" during play as well. You can watch the video and clearly see.

Do you think everyone else who makes such mistakes should be banned too?

When does a genuinely innocent mistake turn into an intentional act of cheating? As you can plainly see by this thread it is very hard to tell. Banning everyone who makes "mistakes" like this on the off chance they were doing it intentionally means a large chunk of the community (including myself, and probably you too) would be lifetime banned from competitive play.

Same played local tournament things.

Yeah made a aload of mistakes and still do. I always apologise if I made one and find out, or try and give advantage away of gained. Ie allow a model back or so.

Even if it's giving someone some of those small lunch packs of twin oreo!

I can't wait to hear what all the haters have to say now.

I guess this shows that the Tau are OP if someone who never read the rules and never played the army before can make it to the final table of a large event.

 djones520 wrote:

w1zard wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

I mean I agree that players should be accountable for their rules.
Personally the appropriate action would have been to disqualify him right then and there. Not let him play out the tournament and ban him later.

That was my entire fething point. Innuendo about forgetting rules, bumping models with drinks, or picking up wound dice aside are just that, innuendo. Intentional cheating requires fething INTENT, and unless you can prove INTENT then you have 0 reason to be lifetime banning anyone. You can't seriously say you can prove INTENT on a video that has no sound and a limited view of the players. If they are so concerned with the integrity of the tournament they should have just DQed him on the spot.

But, if they are going to be DQing or lifetime banning him they should do so to Mr. Robinson as well because Geoff made a lot of "mistakes" during play too, as you can plainly see if you watch the video.

Firstly, the organizers of the event have the right to ban anyone they want for NO reason at all.

Secondly, this is not a court of law. You have no reasonable expectation to be held to the same standards as one.

Cool that doesn't stop anyone from calling an unfair ban an unfair ban

 godardc wrote:
At last, all the cheaters that are shaming our community will be banned, and the rest will be afraid of doing it again.
Tomorrow, «competitive» 40k will be better.
Eventually, this LGT proved useful !

Heck, my Dakka experience is getting better by being able to Ignore all of the cheaters and apologists. It's a great thread!

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 KillswitchUK wrote:
As requested

https://ibb.co/cQRkY8

Oh lord. They're going to try and hand out more bans. That seems like the worst thing to do right now...

Doubt it, they are just putting on a stern face, nothing more will come out of it no matter what they find after watching all footage

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 godardc wrote:
At last, all the cheaters that are shaming our community will be banned, and the rest will be afraid of doing it again.
Tomorrow, «competitive» 40k will be better.
Eventually, this LGT proved useful !

Heck, my Dakka experience is getting better by being able to Ignore all of the cheaters and apologists. It's a great thread!

Not a apologist just understand mistakes happen. Not every mid read rule, nudge or forgetful action is a direct cheat.

Its not like everyone knows there rules cover to cover perfectly, and can and do make the odd mistakes, especially at end of a day.

 Primark G wrote:
Unlike the ork player who slow played to victory at WHF Alex defended himself here which shows some character in my opnion.

what's the first rule of getting caught cheating? deny, deny , look at lance Armstrong, marion jones, bill Clinton, if you profuse it is not true, then it isn't true. He now wants an apology from the TO for slandering his 'good' name, when the evidence say otherwise. imo he needs to shut up and practice at being a better opponent, I don't mean table top tactical, but curbing his fast and loose playing style.


First, how about getting himself a set or two of matching dices, instead of the jumbo bunch, clearly he can afford such from his winnings, this will immensely help any 'accidental' pick up of opponent's wound counter when he rolls his dice nearby. rolling dice in plain view of the opponent, tell them what he needs for success/failure.


I call BS on his response of not having any practice game before the tourney with tau, the codex has been out for a few months, i don't believe any tournament player who enters without a practice game, that's just my opinion. misreading rules i can understand, as i believe everyone does at some point, plus some GW rules are ambiguous.

the tourney itself could have better terrain, our local shop has better, I don't know how they could have mess that up. I feel sorry for players attending the event that has to travel from overseas.

 SHUPPET wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 KillswitchUK wrote:
As requested

https://ibb.co/cQRkY8

Oh lord. They're going to try and hand out more bans. That seems like the worst thing to do right now...

Doubt it, they are just putting on a stern face, nothing more will come out of it no matter what they find after watching all footage

Agreed. Banning a large chunk of the top players from their event would be bad for business. They sent their "message" with Mr. Harrison's lifetime ban. He was just unlucky enough to be the one to get the short end of the stick while everyone else "gets away with it". Like I've been saying this entire time, totally unjust.

They don't even realize that their "message" is going to fall on deaf ears. People who intentionally cheat are just going to keep doing it and try that much harder not to get caught, while the people who unintentionally make gameplay mistakes like this are not going to want to go because they might get banned for making a stupid mistake.

What a sad world we live in if it's true that everyone at the top tables gets there by cheating.