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2018/12/18 23:48:30
Subject: Cultists are 5 points per model.
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Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor
Gathering the Informations.
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When the most commonly used Order literally uses a specific weapon type that the Sergeant has no access to? Yes, it does matter.
Also, complaining about the static nature of Infantry is honestly laughable. Fire Warriors are pretty darn static too and they have a transport they're supposed to go in!
Reading is fundamental, kids.
...the fact that Infantry Squads are static units with no sliding scale for unit size nor do the Sergeants have any options.
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2018/12/18 23:54:07
Subject: Cultists are 5 points per model.
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Painlord Titan Princeps of Slaanesh
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Kanluwen wrote:
TLDR version:
Saying they're "inferior versions of Guardsmen" misses the point. Militia are what Conscripts should have been and comparing them to the Guard Infantry Squad is disingenuous.
That's a lot of words to say "I agree but here's some other stuff nobody mentioned and which isn't relevant". Militia are inferior to Infantry Squad in every possible regard. Qualifying it and throwing in a bunch of malarkey doesn't change the fact that they are inferior. Nor does it alter that they cost the same ppm.
We'll swap your Stratagems, WTs and Relics for our Covenants then, shall we? You'd be happy with that? Four whole choices, one of which is for when your WS5+ dudes are in melee, one of which means you can get to and die in melee quicker but can't shoot your gunline in a gunline army, one that's decent and one that means you shoot overwatch at 5+?
Would you [Expletive Deleted]. Away and [Expletive Deleted]..
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/12/19 01:41:09
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2018/12/19 00:09:10
Subject: Cultists are 5 points per model.
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Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor
Gathering the Informations.
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Excommunicatus wrote: Kanluwen wrote: TLDR version: Saying they're "inferior versions of Guardsmen" misses the point. Militia are what Conscripts should have been and comparing them to the Guard Infantry Squad is disingenuous.
That's a lot of words to say "I agree but here's some other stuff nobody mentioned and which isn't relevant". Militia are inferior to Infantry Squad in every possible regard. Qualifying it and throwing in a bunch of malarkey doesn't change the fact that they are inferior. Nor does it alter that they cost the same ppm.
People like you are why we can't have these discussions in a reasonable manner. Militia are not supposed to be Infantry Squads. The WS/BS5+ should have been the big tipoff since that's the same as Conscripts, a unit which is traditionally said to (shock!) recruit from militias. We'll swap your Stratagems, WTs and Relics for our Covenants then, shall we? You'd be happy with that? Four whole choices, one of which is for when your WS5+ dudes are in melee, one of which means you can get to and die in melee quicker but can't shoot your gunline in a gunline army, one that's decent and one that means you shoot overwatch at 5+?
I think you don't quite understand how R&H are supposed to work. You do know that you don't have to take the WS5+ dudes with the Khorne Covenant right? Also, you're an Index Army. You're upset about not getting something that no Index army had.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/19 00:12:18
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2018/12/19 00:18:37
Subject: Cultists are 5 points per model.
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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Kanluwen wrote:"The maths" are useless. They don't factor in outlying factors such as the fact that Infantry Squads are static units with no sliding scale for unit size nor do the Sergeants have any options.
If you keep trying to say "I made this wonderful formula that shows the round peg fits in the round hole" while widening the hole, of course the round peg will fit.
Irrelevant factors in the scheme of things. But evidently gw agrees with you congrats.
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2018/12/19 00:22:54
Subject: Cultists are 5 points per model.
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Painlord Titan Princeps of Slaanesh
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I agree that Militia are not supposed to Infantry Squads. It just isn't relevant, except for the fact that they're priced the same.
Weirdly, you consider everything relevant except the only thing that actually is; they're inferior and they cost the same.
Yep, I'm aware you don't have to take Militia with the Covenant of Khorne and can make it slightly less bad.
Well done, you've refuted my point entirely with that.
I'm also not 'upset' about our lack of Relics et al, that's just dismissive nonsense. I wouldn't play R&H if I was 'upset' at it, I'm just not going to pretend that lacking Relics et al is irrelevant when you're comparing them to a unit that costs the same, is natively better and can be buffed to be even better than that.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/19 00:25:01
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2018/12/19 00:30:52
Subject: Re:Cultists are 5 points per model.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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G00fySmiley wrote:Cruddace is a strong hand in 8th edition. he was not going to allow his precious guard to be balanced by having them go to the 5 points where they should be. In a fair game conscripts would be 4 points, guardsman 5 points as is , and vetrand 6 points, veterans would be the same as now but with a 4+ armor
That's funny, considering Robin Cruddance was responsible for the awful 5th edition guard codex, in which the only really good unit was the vendetta, and which took away our doctrines and sergeant loadouts that we have had since 2nd edition.
An Actual Englishman wrote:Re; Infantry being 5 ppm models. The maths has been done to death on this in countless threads. At 4 ppm infantry are the best troop in the game. At 5 ppm they are still the best troop in the game but the gap is smaller.
This is not true. I am a guard player who thinks IS need to go to 5ppm, but the math at 5 ppm guardsmen puts them equal in both damage output and durability-per-point to fire warriors. 5ppm guardsmen are not the best troop in the game by a longshot.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/12/19 00:34:48
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2018/12/19 01:42:11
Subject: Cultists are 5 points per model.
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[DCM]
Sentient OverBear
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This is still a violation of Rule #1. You're not being clever, you're just being rude.
Stop.
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DQ:70S++G+++M+B++I+Pw40k94+ID+++A++/sWD178R+++T(I)DM+++
Trust me, no matter what damage they have the potential to do, single-shot weapons always flatter to deceive in 40k. Rule #1 - BBAP
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2018/12/19 08:47:30
Subject: Cultists are 5 points per model.
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Mekboy on Kustom Deth Kopta
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Kanluwen wrote:"The maths" are useless. They don't factor in outlying factors such as the fact that Infantry Squads are static units with no sliding scale for unit size nor do the Sergeants have any options.
If you keep trying to say "I made this wonderful formula that shows the round peg fits in the round hole" while widening the hole, of course the round peg will fit.
This is some good excuse manufacturing right here. Your outlying factors are bogus. Infantry squads are best played as static units, this is a choice the player makes to maximise efficiency. The sliding scale for unit size is nowhere near as important as you claim and the lack of options for Sergeants is cry me a river territory. Boo hoo your Sergeant can't take a lasgun to maximise efficiency even more on a unit that is by far the most efficient. My heart bleeds.
Stop making excuses for an evidently over performing unit. Not only do the theoretical maths show it but when we look at competitive lists you'll notice that Infantry squads are the most used unit in the game.
w1zard wrote:
An Actual Englishman wrote:Re; Infantry being 5 ppm models. The maths has been done to death on this in countless threads. At 4 ppm infantry are the best troop in the game. At 5 ppm they are still the best troop in the game but the gap is smaller.
This is not true. I am a guard player who thinks IS need to go to 5ppm, but the math at 5 ppm guardsmen puts them equal in both damage output and durability-per-point to fire warriors. 5ppm guardsmen are not the best troop in the game by a longshot.
Fire Warriors are mathematically one of the best troops in the game and at 5 ppm Infantry still outperform them vs certain targets. If you've seen the maths on this you know it's true.
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2018/12/19 08:49:40
Subject: Cultists are 5 points per model.
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Fixture of Dakka
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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Also, complaining about the static nature of Infantry is honestly laughable. Fire Warriors are pretty darn static too and they have a transport they're supposed to go in!
I'm pretty sure Kan's point here is that you have to buy them in blocks of 10 - no options for under- or over-sized squads in the 'dex.
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2021-4 Plog - Here we go again... - my fifth attempt at a Dakka PLOG
My Pile of Potential - updates ongoing...
Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.
Kanluwen wrote:This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.
Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...
tneva82 wrote:You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling. - No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something... |
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2018/12/19 08:58:06
Subject: Cultists are 5 points per model.
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The Dread Evil Lord Varlak
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Kanluwen wrote: Excommunicatus wrote: Kanluwen wrote: TLDR version: Saying they're "inferior versions of Guardsmen" misses the point. Militia are what Conscripts should have been and comparing them to the Guard Infantry Squad is disingenuous.
That's a lot of words to say "I agree but here's some other stuff nobody mentioned and which isn't relevant". Militia are inferior to Infantry Squad in every possible regard. Qualifying it and throwing in a bunch of malarkey doesn't change the fact that they are inferior. Nor does it alter that they cost the same ppm.
People like you are why we can't have these discussions in a reasonable manner. Militia are not supposed to be Infantry Squads. The WS/BS5+ should have been the big tipoff since that's the same as Conscripts, a unit which is traditionally said to (shock!) recruit from militias. We'll swap your Stratagems, WTs and Relics for our Covenants then, shall we? You'd be happy with that? Four whole choices, one of which is for when your WS5+ dudes are in melee, one of which means you can get to and die in melee quicker but can't shoot your gunline in a gunline army, one that's decent and one that means you shoot overwatch at 5+?
I think you don't quite understand how R&H are supposed to work. You do know that you don't have to take the WS5+ dudes with the Khorne Covenant right? Also, you're an Index Army. You're upset about not getting something that no Index army had. Knaluwen, you are wrong. How ? By taking a gander at the 7th Ed IA13 list . Militia is not a designated unit type it is a template that could either reach Guardsmen standard in equipment and training at the same cost as a standard guardsmen then or be cheaper for worse stuff. So yes Militia is used in the R&H sense as a groupe name that includes varying stages of discipline or motivation. Edit: So they need to fill and should fill all of these roles, by FW's late 7th design: Infantry line: With bs 4+ Cannonfodder for 3 pts in a mass assult list. Traitor Guard squad with a 5+ sv and a 4+ BS/ WS Which they atm don't. Which is why a lot of people that saw IA13 started their army for their personal taste and are now upset at the GAK we got handled by FW/ GW shortly afterwards because remember IA13 is late 7th. Also Goalpost moving, if you have no idea how the army should function you are not in the right tell someone that his opinion about the 4ppm militia is wrong. Automatically Appended Next Post: Your version of "Orders" is blended with your version of the "Regiments" tagline, giving you the Covenants. You having no Stratagems, Relics, or Warlord Traits means nothing as no Index lists had them until we saw Chapter Approved's first iteration. Also not true since certain index armies got handed some stratagems by CA17 if i remember correctly. Meanwhile neither DKoK nor R&H nor Elysians have seen any bone thrown to them.
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This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/12/19 13:38:10
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH. |
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2018/12/19 11:39:44
Subject: Cultists are 5 points per model.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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An Actual Englishman wrote:Fire Warriors are mathematically one of the best troops in the game and at 5 ppm Infantry still outperform them vs certain targets. If you've seen the maths on this you know it's true.
First, it's actually the fire warriors that outperform the (5 ppm) guardsmen against high T targets, while performing only slightly worse against T3 and T4 targets.
Secondly, fire warriors (and thus 5ppm guardsmen) lose to both kabalites and skitarii rangers in a direct comparison. Fire warriors aren't bad, but I wouldn't say they are "one of the best troops in the game"...
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/12/19 11:43:18
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2018/12/19 11:46:45
Subject: Cultists are 5 points per model.
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Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan
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Kanluwen telling others that they are the factor that makes Guard discussions unreasonable. Well, now I've seen it all.
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P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it. |
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2018/12/19 11:48:01
Subject: Cultists are 5 points per model.
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Beautiful and Deadly Keeper of Secrets
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It is easy to say Infantry are bad and don't deserve to be raised up to 5 points if you state every stat that doesn't matter compared to what matters.
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2018/12/19 13:04:09
Subject: Cultists are 5 points per model.
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Ork Boy Hangin' off a Trukk
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The fact that you can bring almost twice the amount of guard infantry as ork boyz feels just wrong. I think the +1 pt to ork boyz and cultists was fair, but I am dumbfounded at people defending 4 pt guardsmen... How is this even a discussion.
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2018/12/19 13:17:37
Subject: Cultists are 5 points per model.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Sluggaloo wrote:The fact that you can bring almost twice the amount of guard infantry as ork boyz feels just wrong. I think the +1 pt to ork boyz and cultists was fair, but I am dumbfounded at people defending 4 pt guardsmen... How is this even a discussion.
Because they have a case of don't nerf me guard itis.
Symptoms include passionate pleading that soup is the issue, it's all soups fault, guard are weak.
If left untreated "don't nerf me guard itis" maye result in vomiting falsehoods as facts.
Be on the lookout for "don't nerf me gaurd itis", do your civic duty and report them to the inquisition for treatment.
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2018/12/19 13:37:03
Subject: Cultists are 5 points per model.
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The Dread Evil Lord Varlak
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Ice_can wrote: Sluggaloo wrote:The fact that you can bring almost twice the amount of guard infantry as ork boyz feels just wrong. I think the +1 pt to ork boyz and cultists was fair, but I am dumbfounded at people defending 4 pt guardsmen... How is this even a discussion.
Because they have a case of don't nerf me guard itis.
Symptoms include passionate pleading that soup is the issue, it's all soups fault, guard are weak.
If left untreated "don't nerf me guard itis" maye result in vomiting falsehoods as facts.
Be on the lookout for "don't nerf me gaurd itis", do your civic duty and report them to the inquisition for treatment.
case in point though, in soup guardsmen are a bigger issue then in mono dex armies.
Are they too effective, most likely but Kabalites and firewarriors fall in the same offending group of troop choices. Meanwhile cultists and boyz got the shaft and are now less powerfull.
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https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH. |
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2018/12/19 14:06:32
Subject: Cultists are 5 points per model.
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Hungry Ork Hunta Lying in Wait
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Had a discussion with a friend about this, He plays Traitor guard using AM codex, and Im firmly in the "they should be 5 ppm." and his rebuttle to me was 'How can I demand that whilst I have 4ppm Termagants??'
I just believe across the board models are too cheap now days and it has ruined game balance. hell when I started Chaos Daemons bloodletters were 15ppm!
Bump point costs back up, make list building actual decisions and stop letting people bring ALL the toys, we luckily have narrative play for that
On the other side, yes Termagants are THE ideal 4ppm unit, as by god their damage is abysmal, armour is pathetic and the buffs it has available are pretty crappy baring synapse fearless.... which is 100% mandatory otherwise they're hit with -1 to hit and charge against non closest enemy unit, thus balancing things out.
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2018/12/19 14:26:30
Subject: Cultists are 5 points per model.
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The Dread Evil Lord Varlak
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Gir Spirit Bane wrote:Had a discussion with a friend about this, He plays Traitor guard using AM codex, and Im firmly in the "they should be 5 ppm." and his rebuttle to me was 'How can I demand that whilst I have 4ppm Termagants??'
I just believe across the board models are too cheap now days and it has ruined game balance. hell when I started Chaos Daemons bloodletters were 15ppm!
Bump point costs back up, make list building actual decisions and stop letting people bring ALL the toys, we luckily have narrative play for that
On the other side, yes Termagants are THE ideal 4ppm unit, as by god their damage is abysmal, armour is pathetic and the buffs it has available are pretty crappy baring synapse fearless.... which is 100% mandatory otherwise they're hit with -1 to hit and charge against non closest enemy unit, thus balancing things out.
Nope, the ideal 4 ppm model is clearly the castellan, as it is such a integral part of the Knight codex
jokes aside, doubling the prices of all units and doubling the point played and then begin the finetuning, would be severly needed in my opinion. Maybee also implement a d10 system?
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https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH. |
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2018/12/19 14:44:53
Subject: Cultists are 5 points per model.
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Horrific Hive Tyrant
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Guard are much better than Termagants in most situations, so I'm not sure how that's an argument?
Not only are Guard better as they come, there are more powerful synergies available across the army to use them.
Devilgaunts look scary, but that's doubling your point value. Tervigons are still very expensive too.
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2018/12/19 15:07:26
Subject: Cultists are 5 points per model.
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Hungry Ork Hunta Lying in Wait
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Stux wrote:Guard are much better than Termagants in most situations, so I'm not sure how that's an argument?
Not only are Guard better as they come, there are more powerful synergies available across the army to use them.
Devilgaunts look scary, but that's doubling your point value. Tervigons are still very expensive too.
Yes I was arguing with him Termagants do barely any damage, they really are just board space/ meat shields for the cost. Devilgants are scary yes, but at 8 points a pop hardly cheap for how fragile and they don't get orders for a pittance, instead they get a MC which is STILL overcosted for its effects and offensive output and kills nearby gants when it dies!
Guard infantry squads could go to 5, still output good damage and be cheap enough for crazy amount of CP and be excellent board denial units with access to some fantastic buffs from within AM and the Imperium soup as a whole.
I'll parrot myself again, increase all models point costs for more granularity as it is IS are way and ahead PPM than anything. (Plus do they still get the option to take a HWT in the squad? If so that's SUCH a nice advantage, an un-snipeable mortar, heavy bolter/autocannon!)
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2018/12/19 15:09:09
Subject: Cultists are 5 points per model.
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Dysartes wrote:Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Also, complaining about the static nature of Infantry is honestly laughable. Fire Warriors are pretty darn static too and they have a transport they're supposed to go in!
I'm pretty sure Kan's point here is that you have to buy them in blocks of 10 - no options for under- or over-sized squads in the 'dex.
Seeing as most other models are 7-8 points and their 5 man total is 35 or 40, the latter being the price of 10 Infantry models...
Do you really think it's a valid complaint? Automatically Appended Next Post: w1zard wrote: An Actual Englishman wrote:Fire Warriors are mathematically one of the best troops in the game and at 5 ppm Infantry still outperform them vs certain targets. If you've seen the maths on this you know it's true.
First, it's actually the fire warriors that outperform the (5 ppm) guardsmen against high T targets, while performing only slightly worse against T3 and T4 targets.
Secondly, fire warriors (and thus 5ppm guardsmen) lose to both kabalites and skitarii rangers in a direct comparison. Fire warriors aren't bad, but I wouldn't say they are "one of the best troops in the game"...
They don't lose to Kalabites. I haven't a clue where you got that idea from.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/19 15:11:12
CaptainStabby wrote:If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote:BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote:Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote:ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever. |
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2018/12/19 15:13:17
Subject: Cultists are 5 points per model.
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Killer Klaivex
The dark behind the eyes.
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Ice_can wrote:Because they have a case of don't nerf me guard itis.
Symptoms include passionate pleading that soup is the issue, it's all soups fault, guard are weak.
Soup players, meanwhile, have no such illness. They're just rabidly defend the idea that Soup should actually be balanced against mono-armies, lest they be forced to actually use skill to win.
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blood reaper wrote:I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote:Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote:GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
Andilus Greatsword wrote:
"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"
Akiasura wrote:I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.
insaniak wrote:
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet. |
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2018/12/19 15:19:47
Subject: Cultists are 5 points per model.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Ice_can wrote: Sluggaloo wrote:The fact that you can bring almost twice the amount of guard infantry as ork boyz feels just wrong. I think the +1 pt to ork boyz and cultists was fair, but I am dumbfounded at people defending 4 pt guardsmen... How is this even a discussion.
Because they have a case of don't nerf me guard itis.
Symptoms include passionate pleading that soup is the issue, it's all soups fault, guard are weak.
If left untreated "don't nerf me guard itis" maye result in vomiting falsehoods as facts.
Be on the lookout for "don't nerf me gaurd itis", do your civic duty and report them to the inquisition for treatment.
Its so ironic seeing "pleading that soup is the issue" as "vomiting falsehoods" yet can you provide any data that suggests otherwise? Are we supposed to ignore the fact that every winning "guard" list since the conscript nerf has been soup? Are we supposed to ignore the fact that SM, Orks, DE, Eldar, Tau all have more mono GT wins then guard? Do you have any evidence that suggests the issue is guardsmen in and of themselves and not simply there ability to provide CP to elite armies like knights? I'd be all for a guard increase in points if I believed they were the issue and not simply soup (like all data suggests). Why not address the issue of shared CP pools and then fine tweak points instead of increasing guard by a point which won't change any of those loyal 32 lists? I think it would actually be nice to see some mono imperial lists from time to time at the top tables but as long as CP is shared with no drawback your going to simply see buffs/nerfs that only make sense in the context of uninhibited souping and ruin the chances of any mono faction to truly compete.
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2018/12/19 15:40:51
Subject: Cultists are 5 points per model.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Assuming the target is say... an MEQ within rapidfire range of both the firewarrior and kabalite.
Kabalite (6ppm) - 2 shots -> (4/3) hits -> (2/3) wounds -> (2/9) unsaved wounds -> (1/27) unsaved wounds per point during one shooting phase
Fire warrior (8ppm) - 2 shots -> 1 hit -> (2/3) wounds -> (2/9) unsaved wounds -> (1/36) unsaved wounds per point during one shooting phase
I picked a target of middling toughness for fairness sake... kabalites get better the higher the toughness goes because their weapon wounds on 4+ regardless of toughness... but let's look at the scenario that advantages the fire warrior the most, shooting at GEQ:
Kabalite (6ppm) - 2 shots -> (4/3) hits -> (2/3) wounds -> (4/9) unsaved wounds -> (2/27) unsaved wounds per point during one shooting phase ~ 0.074
Fire warrior (8ppm) - 2 shots -> 1 hit -> (5/6) wounds -> (5/9) unsaved wounds -> (5/72) unsaved wounds per point during one shooting phase ~0.069
Kabalite still has better damage output per point than a fire warrior does, even against the fire warrior's "best" target.
Let's look at defense shall we?
10 bolter shots fired by marines at a unit of kabalites and a unit of fire warriors
Kabalites (6ppm) - 10 shots -> (20/3) hits -> (40/9) wounds -> (80/27) unsaved wounds ~17.78 points of kabalites killed
Fire warriors (8ppm) - 10 shots -> (20/3) hits -> (40/9) wounds -> (40/18) unsaved wounds ~17.78 points of fire warriors killed
Well... would you look at that. Kabalites have the same durability per point as fire warriors against small arms while having better damage output per point against everything except vehicles, having much better weapon skill, and having better movement. Oh, I guess fire warriors have 3" more rapidfire range and 6" more total range.
That's where I got that idea from.
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This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2018/12/19 15:48:10
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2018/12/19 15:47:32
Subject: Cultists are 5 points per model.
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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ignore - other people addressed it
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/19 15:48:09
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2018/12/19 15:49:20
Subject: Cultists are 5 points per model.
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Beautiful and Deadly Keeper of Secrets
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Asmodios wrote:Ice_can wrote: Sluggaloo wrote:The fact that you can bring almost twice the amount of guard infantry as ork boyz feels just wrong. I think the +1 pt to ork boyz and cultists was fair, but I am dumbfounded at people defending 4 pt guardsmen... How is this even a discussion.
Because they have a case of don't nerf me guard itis.
Symptoms include passionate pleading that soup is the issue, it's all soups fault, guard are weak.
If left untreated "don't nerf me guard itis" maye result in vomiting falsehoods as facts.
Be on the lookout for "don't nerf me gaurd itis", do your civic duty and report them to the inquisition for treatment.
Its so ironic seeing "pleading that soup is the issue" as "vomiting falsehoods" yet can you provide any data that suggests otherwise? Are we supposed to ignore the fact that every winning "guard" list since the conscript nerf has been soup? Are we supposed to ignore the fact that SM, Orks, DE, Eldar, Tau all have more mono GT wins then guard? Do you have any evidence that suggests the issue is guardsmen in and of themselves and not simply there ability to provide CP to elite armies like knights? I'd be all for a guard increase in points if I believed they were the issue and not simply soup (like all data suggests). Why not address the issue of shared CP pools and then fine tweak points instead of increasing guard by a point which won't change any of those loyal 32 lists? I think it would actually be nice to see some mono imperial lists from time to time at the top tables but as long as CP is shared with no drawback your going to simply see buffs/nerfs that only make sense in the context of uninhibited souping and ruin the chances of any mono faction to truly compete.
Orks and Tau are not able to soup up.. So is that really supposed to be an argument that they have more mono wins because they are always going to be mono? Eldar and DE can soup with each other, but have no reason to because there's no real synergy like an Imperium or Chaos army grants so they tend to stay mono as well.
As for more Mono GT wins.. Well they're going to take the best thing possible, which is usually going to be soup, and IG can soup quite well.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/19 15:50:27
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2018/12/19 15:51:39
Subject: Cultists are 5 points per model.
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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w1zard wrote:
Oh, I guess fire warriors have 3" more rapidfire range and 6" more total range.
That's a pretty significant advantage.
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2018/12/19 15:54:14
Subject: Cultists are 5 points per model.
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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ZebioLizard2 wrote:Orks and Tau are not able to soup up.. So is that really supposed to be an argument that they have more mono wins because they are always going to be mono? Eldar and DE can soup with each other, but have no reason to because there's no real synergy like an Imperium or Chaos army grants so they tend to stay mono as well.
As for more Mono GT wins.. Well they're going to take the best thing possible, which is usually going to be soup, and IG can soup quite well.
So... the data is that soup is the problem? Say it ain't so!
Plus, there absolutely have been mono guard lists at tournaments, and they're not making very good showings compared to those listed. Mono-guard shows up.
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2018/12/19 15:56:28
Subject: Cultists are 5 points per model.
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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w1zard wrote:
Assuming the target is say... an MEQ within rapidfire range of both the firewarrior and kabalite.
Kabalite (6ppm) - 2 shots -> (4/3) hits -> (2/3) wounds -> (2/9) unsaved wounds -> (1/27) unsaved wounds per point during one shooting phase
Fire warrior (8ppm) - 2 shots -> 1 hit -> (2/3) wounds -> (2/9) unsaved wounds -> (1/36) unsaved wounds per point during one shooting phase
I picked a target of middling toughness for fairness sake... kabalites get better the higher the toughness goes because their weapon wounds on 4+ regardless of toughness... but let's look at the scenario that advantages the fire warrior the most, shooting at GEQ:
Kabalite (6ppm) - 2 shots -> (4/3) hits -> (2/3) wounds -> (4/9) unsaved wounds -> (2/27) unsaved wounds per point during one shooting phase ~ 0.074
Fire warrior (8ppm) - 2 shots -> 1 hit -> (5/6) wounds -> (5/9) unsaved wounds -> (5/72) unsaved wounds per point during one shooting phase ~0.069
Kabalite still has better damage output per point than a fire warrior does, even against the fire warrior's "best" target.
Let's look at defense shall we?
10 bolter shots fired by marines at a unit of kabalites and a unit of fire warriors
Kabalites (6ppm) - 10 shots -> (20/3) hits -> (40/9) wounds -> (80/27) unsaved wounds ~17.78 points of kabalites killed
Fire warriors (8ppm) - 10 shots -> (20/3) hits -> (40/9) wounds -> (40/18) unsaved wounds ~17.78 points of fire warriors killed
Well... would you look at that. Kabalites have the same durability per point as fire warriors against small arms while having better damage output per point against everything except vehicles, having much better weapon skill, and having better movement. Oh, I guess fire warriors have 3" more rapidfire range and 6" more total range.
That's where I got that idea from.
Fire Warriors are 7 points I thought? That's how one of my opponents a while back was playing them.
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CaptainStabby wrote:If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote:BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote:Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote:ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever. |
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2018/12/19 16:11:29
Subject: Cultists are 5 points per model.
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Ork Boy Hangin' off a Trukk
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Asmodios wrote:
Its so ironic seeing "pleading that soup is the issue" as "vomiting falsehoods" yet can you provide any data that suggests otherwise? Are we supposed to ignore the fact that every winning "guard" list since the conscript nerf has been soup?
Please do provide data detailing of this 0% winrate for mono guard since Chapter Approved '17.
Asmodios wrote:
Are we supposed to ignore the fact that SM, Orks, DE, Eldar, Tau all have more mono GT wins then guard?
Pointless comparison. Orks, Tau and Tyranids have no way of allying with anything else other than their own respective factions. Because hey, I agree, soup is too strong. The fact that any imperial player can soup up with undercosted guardsmen is a big part of the problem, but soup being a problem doesn't change the fundamental issue specific to guardsmen, which are undercosted. There's a reason they exist in the vast majority of imperial armies at the moment. They, along with my ork boyz, and jimmy's cultists, and jane's firewarriors are the reason people are struggling to find a reason to ever bring power armor to the table. Cheap, undercosted units spammed are too good at what they do. Board control, tarpitting, screening vs assault, objective denial, durability per point etc are vital in this edition.
Asmodios wrote:
Do you have any evidence that suggests the issue is guardsmen in and of themselves and not simply there ability to provide CP to elite armies like knights? I'd be all for a guard increase in points if I believed they were the issue and not simply soup (like all data suggests). Why not address the issue of shared CP pools and then fine tweak points instead of increasing guard by a point which won't change any of those loyal 32 lists?
As I mentioned above, I agree that soup is dumb. I'd go as far to say that most players don't like soup ( GW is happy with it as MORE SALES). Fact is though, that is another issue. Because on the other hand, guardsmen are too good for 4 pts. Look at other 4 pt units like termagaunts, look at 3 pt units like grots. Guardsmen are much better.
Asmodios wrote:
I think it would actually be nice to see some mono imperial lists from time to time at the top tables but as long as CP is shared with no drawback your going to simply see buffs/nerfs that only make sense in the context of uninhibited souping and ruin the chances of any mono faction to truly compete.
It would be nice to see mono guard, but just because guard have access to all of the juicy toys the imperium has to offer through soup, doesn't mean they're weak. Imperial players are absolutely spoilt for choice in units you can take. If we were to make mono-faction armies a rule, AM would completely gak on any other army easily just from the raw, cheap firepower and board control alone. Just like in the index days.
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