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Ok, we get it. You aren't convinced. I don't have a dog in the fight, but I would rather not get this thread locked. Couldn't "I'm not convinced" backed up with your data suffice to prove your point? Actually, wouldn't it not prove your point better without the online spew additives? I tend to agree with most of your comments on these boards, NotOnline, but your acerbic tone really detracts from your message and I find myself trying to find loopholes in your argument even more so. All I'm asking for is for you to keep your logic, and tone down the hyperbolic online rhetoric.

Interesting I didn't know terms could take chainaxes. That is a pretty good unit too. Maybe even better than oblitz now. I'll concede that.

So much you know about the army.....
Also when terminators beat you out in a max squad in price and Bullets vomited out then you have a problem.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
Ok, we get it. You aren't convinced. I don't have a dog in the fight, but I would rather not get this thread locked. Couldn't "I'm not convinced" backed up with your data suffice to prove your point? Actually, wouldn't it not prove your point better without the online spew additives? I tend to agree with most of your comments on these boards, NotOnline, but your acerbic tone really detracts from your message and I find myself trying to find loopholes in your argument even more so. All I'm asking for is for you to keep your logic, and tone down the hyperbolic online rhetoric.

Good thing then, but frankly if you regard this as impolite i don't really see a point in this.
Because whilest it may come over as impolite the intention is not.

Not online are you saying they should have been the previous 65 point error? I’m trying to understand what the frustration is here

I get the intention is not, but the language used to convey the non impolite ideas is, in fact impolite. Really, is the "so much you know about the army..." needed to convey or express your thoughts, or is it just gut reaction crap? Or is it online posturing? Usually one sees this sort of rhetorical device when posters don't have much to back up their claims. You do.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Not online are you saying they should have been the previous 65 point error? I’m trying to understand what the frustration is here

Most certainly not 65 pts. I even stated in the tactics thread the following:

It is a Typo, technically it is allowed to field the newer 65 pts value, but considering obviously it is a Copy paste error and for your standing in your local FLG's don't field them at 65 pts.

What i am getting annoyed at is this:

The question is are they worth their points and the answer is when played correctly they are even better than they were before. So...Yes...Because they were already OP. \

Whilest then showing nothign to back up that statement.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
I get the intention is not, but the language used to convey the non impolite ideas is, in fact impolite. Really, is the "so much you know about the army..." needed to convey or express your thoughts, or is it just gut reaction crap? Or is it online posturing?

Which can be read as condescidning i'll cede that point but is more along a frustated contemplation of a factual situation.

I get that, but when you are posting in a discussion board disagreeing about that very thing, you don't really need to get frustrated. Numbers will back you up (or they won't). You do not need to go for the jugular vein. It isn't a life or death experience.

The question isn't "are the worth the points as compared to the old setup?". It's are they worth the points as compared to other options in the book.

And it seems quite likely that they are - *if you're willing to make the investment*.

With potentially fewer Castellans to worry about Obliterators might have more soft targets to chase, which is great for the variability of their gun.

No - I am just smart and know this unit deletes 2 units a turn at minimum and is likely at least -1 to hit with 4++ save when you go to shoot back at them. Buffs aren't really expensive in the sense you are talking about ether. They are auto include. The only question is what units are you going to use them on. Oblitz are unquestionably the best because they get 18x2 quality shots. Nothing else in the army even comes close....except a squad of 10 terminators all with combi meltas which costs A LOT MORE and has LESS range.

Chaos is a death star buff army...understand this. Win games.

If you are deliberately making a unit 50% weaker. Then yeah - it's going to be meh.

Know what is meh? A repulsor. That is Meh. Oblitz DS 1 shotting a repulsor almost automatically - thats not meh.

To which was the following replied:

I guess I'm not trying to cost them according to the maximum potential buff level and factoring the use of 2CP stratagems into their base cost. Even with EC, the Oldblits were not oneshotting a Repulsor by any means on average (they'd do 10-11 out of 16 wounds), so we have to factor in the cost of additional support (and ensuring it could be near enough the Oblits when they DS) as well for more buffs to make that happen. If we're talking a Character, 3 Oldblits, and 2 CP for a DS strike package to kill one 3+sv tank, that doesn't seem OP to me given the state of the game.

It also doesn't help that the Repulsor is basically a 1980's GI Joe toy with a gazillion absurdly named weapons that are just slightly different versions of existing alternatives and can't decide what it wants to actually be. The Repulsor is a fundamentally poorly thought out unit, not just a poorly costed one.

And this is just a small exceprt from the last page off this thread alone, special points for NOT providing any math even though it was stated he had the Numbers and or making claims promptly to be disproven (repulsor 1 shot.)




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
The question isn't "are the worth the points as compared to the old setup?". It's are they worth the points as compared to other options in the book.

And it seems quite likely that they are - *if you're willing to make the investment*.

With potentially fewer Castellans to worry about Obliterators might have more soft targets to chase, which is great for the variability of their gun.

Still does not fix the issue that there are more Assasins around that which complicates MoP buffs which make the Oblits reliable.

But maybee you are right and the meta changed enough but frankly after a short intervall off a meta shakeup i don't see many things having changed.

We don't have to attack each other.

The key value for the new obliterators that makes them worth their cost is their buff efficiency. They have a very high power density. Buffs go further on larger units, generally.

If you're not investing in supporting them and building around them, you're not getting their full value, and you're doing marginally worse than Oldbliterators. If you are, you're doing better than if you were doing the same with Oldbliterators.

That's kind of where it's at, and it kind of depends on what you want out of your oblitz. You probably shouldn't just staple them onto any list, but if you build around them you might go reasonably far.

Not Online!!! wrote:


Still does not fix the issue that there are more Assasins around that which complicates MoP buffs which make the Oblits reliable.

But maybee you are right and the meta changed enough but frankly after a short intervall off a meta shakeup i don't see many things having changed.

I wouldn't even consider the MoP as a viable buffer unless you're walking obliterators. They're a CP dumping ground otherwise.

If your oblitz are hitting on 2's rr1's and wounding 3's rerolling 1's against a repulsor (average damage roll str 8 ap-2 flat2) - shooting twice. You will do. 36 damage to a t8 3+ save tank.
That is enough to kill 2 repulsors. Or a supreme command of command tanks...Both about a 600 point total value.


Really with those buff - you average a kill without shooting twice.

No, they are not worth 115pts for any other mark than slaanesh and endless cacophony, with that combo they are worth those points.

Did anyone actually say that this definitely wasn't a misprint? I didn't see much of that, I think everyone here acknowledged the possibility of GW's screw up. I think the main point is that a lot of people with more experience with Chaos were arguing that 65 pts is fine. Care to clear up who you were referring to, P4P?

 Xenomancers wrote:
If your oblitz are hitting on 2's rr1's and wounding 3's rerolling 1's against a repulsor (average damage roll str 8 ap-2 flat2) - shooting twice. You will do. 36 damage to a t8 3+ save tank.
That is enough to kill 2 repulsors. Or a supreme command of command tanks...Both about a 600 point total value.


Really with those buff - you average a kill without shooting twice.

Tell me then, hitting on 2+ and rerolling ones that would just be about an additional 160+ pts instead of the cozy 90 from before at cheapest footslogging., If you want to avoid that you will pay 200+ for charachter support alone.
So we are at 345 +200+ another 90 pts rounded down for CP.
That is over 600 pts.
For getting 600 pts back as a suicide unit.
(the correct price Tag is higher i rounded down the equipped sorceres, cp cost and Lord cost)

First of all - oblitz have 24" range and they deep strike. If you are suiciding with them - that is up to you. 24" range is clearly enough range for you to at he very least...drop in cover. More than likely though - you are just dropping them into the middle of your army (if you built it right) and sharing the reoll 1's buff with as many units as you can.

Second of all...What kind of Choas army isn't running a sorceror with precience? What kind of Choas army isn't going to be using the reroll 1's to wound aura? You build an army wisely and the only thing it is costing you is CP - because all your firepower is going to benifit from these buffs (except preceince which you were taking anyways...

Also - CP are not points. CP are another currency. And as if you aren't using 1 criminally undercosted +1 to wound strat (should easily be 3 CP) and EC every turn...you just aren't playing competitively at all.

Were they preferable before? OFC they were - I'd much rather have to squads of 65 point oldblitz and deep strike them turn 2 and 3 but now you have to frontload and play defense buffs on oblitz to really get the most out of them.

Good thing your 2 essentially required HQ's have this under control.

 Xenomancers wrote:
If your oblitz are hitting on 2's rr1's and wounding 3's rerolling 1's against a repulsor (average damage roll str 8 ap-2 flat2) - shooting twice. You will do. 36 damage to a t8 3+ save tank.
That is enough to kill 2 repulsors. Or a supreme command of command tanks...Both about a 600 point total value.


Really with those buff - you average a kill without shooting twice.

So that's...

35/2 hits
35/3 wounds
70/9 unsaved
140/9 damage, or 15.56

Requiring a Lord and a Sorcerer. Replace the Lord with a Master of Possessions to get reroll 1s to-wound, you get:

35/2 hits
245/18 wounds
245/27 unsaved
490/27 damage, or 18.15

So, with the investment of...

3 Obliterators
1 Sorcerer, who must cast a power
1 Master of Possessions, who must cast a power and CANNOT Deep Strike, so has to walk
2 CP

You can one-round a Repulsor on average. If the opponent gets slightly lucky or you get slightly unlucky? Well, sucks to suck, your units just failed to do much.

Edit: Xeno, you do know that Exalted Champions are NOT Lieutenants, right? They give FULL rerolls to-wound, but in MELEE ONLY. The only way to get rerolls to-wound at a distance is with Daemon units and a Master of Posessions.

No...you kill 2 repulsors. Oblitz average 2 damage.

And yes - I know where all the powers are coming from. It's just not a fair or smart way to evaluate power of combos by adding the points from support when you are taking the support anyways. Plus trust me. If you kill 2 full life repulsors or 3 command tanks in 1 turn you automatically win the game. So it is worth it.

 Xenomancers wrote:
If your oblitz are hitting on 2's rr1's and wounding 3's rerolling 1's against a repulsor (average damage roll str 8 ap-2 flat2) - shooting twice. You will do. 36 damage to a t8 3+ save tank.
That is enough to kill 2 repulsors. Or a supreme command of command tanks...Both about a 600 point total value.


Really with those buff - you average a kill without shooting twice.

If we are talking Newblits (as opposed to the Oldblits), I guess if you're enhancing BS, getting rerolls to hit, roll above average on S (Repulsor is T8 and Oblit weapons are S6+D3), have rerolls to wound, and are Slaanesh with Endless Cacophony, sure.


But at that point we're not talking about 115pt Oblits. We're talking about Slaaneshi Oblits with a 2CP Stratagem that are enjoying 4 distinct buffs that have to be provided by other sources (and thus should factor into the costs as well) and rolling above average on their stats. Most anything will look impressive on paper if you load that many buffs and ignore the support costs.

As is, out of the box, 3 naked Newblits will do 8 damage to a Repulsor for 345pts (18 x 2/3 =12 hits /2 with avgS8=6 wounds x2/3 avg-2ASM=4 failed saves x2 avg Damage =8). They'll sport 12 T5 2+/5++ wounds.

By comparison, for 360pts two quadlas Predators will do 10.37 wounds out of the box with double the range and sport 22 T7 3+sv wounds.

 Xenomancers wrote:
No...you kill 2 repulsors. Oblitz average 2 damage.

And yes - I know where all the powers are coming from. It's just not a fair or smart way to evaluate power of combos by adding the points from support when you are taking the support anyways. Plus trust me. If you kill 2 full life repulsors or 3 command tanks in 1 turn you automatically win the game. So it is worth it.

I didn't include Endless Cacophony. And you want me to anydice this? See actual odds, instead of averages? (Oh, and by the way-you have to reroll stats when you shoot again. So if you used a CP to change a 1 to a 2 or 3, you can't do it again with EC.)

Assuming S8, AP-2, Prescience, VotLW, and RR1s to-hit and to-wound, you have the following odds of doing the indicated number of wounds:

6 or less wounds......................95% or greater
7...............................................88.79%
8...............................................77.05%
9...............................................60.64%
10.............................................42.11%
11.............................................25.15%
12.............................................12.61%
13.............................................5.17%
14.............................................1.68%
15+...........................................Less than 1%

So that's a 60% chance of killing a Repulsor, assuming average stats. Days like this I wish I could write programs to actually simulate it and just run it a million or so times, because Obliterators are just so damn random.

Which do you think will see more competitive play? Quadlas pred or nublitz?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
No...you kill 2 repulsors. Oblitz average 2 damage.

And yes - I know where all the powers are coming from. It's just not a fair or smart way to evaluate power of combos by adding the points from support when you are taking the support anyways. Plus trust me. If you kill 2 full life repulsors or 3 command tanks in 1 turn you automatically win the game. So it is worth it.

I didn't include Endless Cacophony. And you want me to anydice this? See actual odds, instead of averages? (Oh, and by the way-you have to reroll stats when you shoot again. So if you used a CP to change a 1 to a 2 or 3, you can't do it again with EC.)

Assuming S8, AP-2, Prescience, VotLW, and RR1s to-hit and to-wound, you have the following odds of doing the indicated number of wounds:

6 or less wounds......................95% or greater
7...............................................88.79%
8...............................................77.05%
9...............................................60.64%
10.............................................42.11%
11.............................................25.15%
12.............................................12.61%
13.............................................5.17%
14.............................................1.68%
15+...........................................Less than 1%

So that's a 60% chance of killing a Repulsor, assuming average stats. Days like this I wish I could write programs to actually simulate it and just run it a million or so times, because Obliterators are just so damn random.

Sorry It's a lot more impressive when you shoot them twice...might as well just double all that expenditure for 2 CP...this is why the Nublitz are good.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Which do you think will see more competitive play? Quadlas pred or nublitz?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
No...you kill 2 repulsors. Oblitz average 2 damage.

And yes - I know where all the powers are coming from. It's just not a fair or smart way to evaluate power of combos by adding the points from support when you are taking the support anyways. Plus trust me. If you kill 2 full life repulsors or 3 command tanks in 1 turn you automatically win the game. So it is worth it.

I didn't include Endless Cacophony. And you want me to anydice this? See actual odds, instead of averages? (Oh, and by the way-you have to reroll stats when you shoot again. So if you used a CP to change a 1 to a 2 or 3, you can't do it again with EC.)

Assuming S8, AP-2, Prescience, VotLW, and RR1s to-hit and to-wound, you have the following odds of doing the indicated number of wounds:

6 or less wounds......................95% or greater
7...............................................88.79%
8...............................................77.05%
9...............................................60.64%
10.............................................42.11%
11.............................................25.15%
12.............................................12.61%
13.............................................5.17%
14.............................................1.68%
15+...........................................Less than 1%

So that's a 60% chance of killing a Repulsor, assuming average stats. Days like this I wish I could write programs to actually simulate it and just run it a million or so times, because Obliterators are just so damn random.

Sorry It's a lot more impressive when you shoot them twice...might as well just double all that expenditure for 2 CP...this is why the Nublitz are good.

Because, you know, feth anyone who doesn't play Slaanesh, right? That's good game design.

The way I see it. The point value given is so that there is only 1 way to play oblitz or they aren't worth it. The required support and high point cost - it means adding more CSM makes more sense than adding in TS DP and co. I think it is an attempt to give Mono army something over soup.

But they are going to be Slaanesh and they are going to use the shoot twice stratagem. If you are not going to do that why are you bringing Oblits? You are also likely to have some buffing characters, because you have to have at least one HQ. This might be canned strategy - but its how the game is played.

I'm in the "should be about 90 points" camp. They are certainly not amazing at 115.
But at 65 they were comically good, and I think anyone who couldn't see it was kidding themselves.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Which do you think will see more competitive play? Quadlas pred or nublitz?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
No...you kill 2 repulsors. Oblitz average 2 damage.

And yes - I know where all the powers are coming from. It's just not a fair or smart way to evaluate power of combos by adding the points from support when you are taking the support anyways. Plus trust me. If you kill 2 full life repulsors or 3 command tanks in 1 turn you automatically win the game. So it is worth it.

I didn't include Endless Cacophony. And you want me to anydice this? See actual odds, instead of averages? (Oh, and by the way-you have to reroll stats when you shoot again. So if you used a CP to change a 1 to a 2 or 3, you can't do it again with EC.)

Assuming S8, AP-2, Prescience, VotLW, and RR1s to-hit and to-wound, you have the following odds of doing the indicated number of wounds:

6 or less wounds......................95% or greater
7...............................................88.79%
8...............................................77.05%
9...............................................60.64%
10.............................................42.11%
11.............................................25.15%
12.............................................12.61%
13.............................................5.17%
14.............................................1.68%
15+...........................................Less than 1%

So that's a 60% chance of killing a Repulsor, assuming average stats. Days like this I wish I could write programs to actually simulate it and just run it a million or so times, because Obliterators are just so damn random.

Sorry It's a lot more impressive when you shoot them twice...might as well just double all that expenditure for 2 CP...this is why the Nublitz are good.

Because, you know, feth anyone who doesn't play Slaanesh, right? That's good game design.

Personally - From a fluff perspective it is meaningless. You can include mixtures of gods in your detachments for no penalty. If fluff is a huge concern - just paint them however you want and say they are slannesh and make up some story as to why your Tzeentchen painted oblitz are shooting twice. It isn't a limiting factor like if it were a black legion only stratagem. Or you have to be Ultramarines to play competitive marines.

 Formosa wrote:
No, they are not worth 115pts for any other mark than slaanesh and endless cacophony, with that combo they are worth those points.

It seems to me that this is not correct. The are the damage outputs of each unit divided by their points with no buffs. Obliterators are more well rounded and potentially stronger than any yother option when supported with CP rerolls to stave off the crappy results.

Tyel wrote:
But they are going to be Slaanesh and they are going to use the shoot twice stratagem. If you are not going to do that why are you bringing Oblits? You are also likely to have some buffing characters, because you have to have at least one HQ. This might be canned strategy - but its how the game is played.

I'm in the "should be about 90 points" camp. They are certainly not amazing at 115.
But at 65 they were comically good, and I think anyone who couldn't see it was kidding themselves.

I have to disagree. That is a really powerful combo. It should realistically kill about 1/4th of your opponent elite army. In other words. It doesn't need to be cheaper.

 JNAProductions wrote:


Because, you know, feth anyone who doesn't play Slaanesh, right? That's good game design.

Or anyone who doesn't like Castellans or Ynnari (at least prior to the FAQ)?

If you want a strong list you use the strong elements. Marking Slaanesh means nothing for paint jobs.

Okay, Imma go through and manually mathhammer all the possibilities. All numbers assume every single available buff with the exception of Endless Cacophony. I have bolded each one that results in a dead Repulsor on average.



Too much math later reveals that Obliterators average to 14.238 against a Repulsor with every single buff, excepting Endless Cacophony and rerolls on stats. Or, in other words, unless a reroll to any one stat is worth a +25% improvement, theyaren't even one-shotting a Repulsor on average.

I am confused. I thought we already figured that the average damage with all buffs but cocophany was 18?

Also when it comes to CP rerolls - they are only ever worth it on a 1 stat and 1 stats on damage are going to be the most beneficial.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Okay, Imma go through and manually mathhammer all the possibilities. All numbers assume every single available buff with the exception of Endless Cacophony. I have bolded each one that results in a dead Repulsor on average.

Spoiler:

S7 AP-1 D1 averages to 5.104
S8 AP-1 D1 averages to 6.806
S9 AP-1 D1 averages to 8.507
S7 AP-2 D1 averages to 6.806
S8 AP-2 D1 averages to 9.074
S9 AP-2 D1 averages to 11.343
S7 AP-3 D1 averages to 8.507
S8 AP-3 D1 averages to 11.343
S9 AP-3 D1 averages to 14.178
S7 AP-1 D2 averages to 10.208
S8 AP-1 D2 averages to 13.611
S9 AP-1 D2 averages to 17.014
S7 AP-2 D2 averages to 13.611
S8 AP-2 D2 averages to 18.148
S9 AP-2 D2 averages to 22.685
S7 AP-3 D2 averages to 17.014
S8 AP-3 D2 averages to 22.685
S9 AP-3 D2 averages to 28.356
S7 AP-1 D3 averages to 15.313
S8 AP-1 D3 averages to 20.417
S9 AP-1 D3 averages to 25.521
S7 AP-2 D3 averages to 20.417
S8 AP-2 D3 averages to 27.222
S9 AP-2 D3 averages to 34.028
S7 AP-3 D3 averages to 25.521
S8 AP-3 D3 averages to 34.028
S9 AP-3 D3 averages to 42.535

Average damage is...

(5.104+6.806+8.507+6.806+9.074+11.343+8.507+11.343+14.178+10.208+13.611+17.014+13.611+18+18+17.014+18+18+15.313+18+18+18+18+18+18+18+18)/27

All of which equals 14.238 damage on average.

Too much math later reveals that Obliterators average to 14.238 against a Repulsor with every single buff, excepting Endless Cacophony and rerolls on stats. Or, in other words, unless a reroll to any one stat is worth a +25% improvement, theyaren't even one-shotting a Repulsor on average.

I find it slightly amusing that people act like a Repulsor is an easy thing to kill.

Here's an easier exercise. 3 Oblits with only CaC or VotLW & CaC.

That's a 48% and 67% kill rate with a good number chances to kill two repulsors as well as mostly crippling it otherwise.








Automatically Appended Next Post:
And for gaks and giggles - the average a Castellan does to a Repulsor

7 * .666 * .5 * .833 * 2 = 3.9
3.5 * .666 * .666 * 6 = 9.3
8 * .666 * .333 * .5 * 2 = 1.8

That's 15 wounds from an unbuffed Castellan.