Grey Knights Tactica: The Psychics Awaken!

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**Slayer-Fan123**

MiguelFelstone wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The question is do you want the Champ in combat with something that's T8?

Honest question, with all the great HQs we have, and all the powerful support abilities they bring (Brother Captain giving our 2 DMG smite double the range ect) - why would you ever field a Champion?

He's a 90 point distraction. Not a bad deal compared to Crowe who borders on useless.

**tksolway**

MiguelFelstone wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The question is do you want the Champ in combat with something that's T8?

Honest question, with all the great HQs we have, and all the powerful support abilities they bring (Brother Captain giving our 2 DMG smite double the range ect) - why would you ever field a Champion?

I've used Crowe in the past when I wanted someone in a Razorback. If you know who you're facing, the Champions/Crowe are better than other choices against some armies, like Eldar, IG, and maybe Orcs.

As someone said above, against anything T4, a Champion with the Relic is actually better in CC than a BC with a hammer. So maybe in an all-comers list you still take the BC with the hammer because it's better all around. But there's still a place for the Champion as he isn't completely eclipsed by something else any longer.

**Slayer-Fan123**

It's a bit of effort to deliver him but I guess I could think about it...

**MiguelFelstone**

tksolway wrote:
MiguelFelstone wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The question is do you want the Champ in combat with something that's T8?

Honest question, with all the great HQs we have, and all the powerful support abilities they bring (Brother Captain giving our 2 DMG smite double the range ect) - why would you ever field a Champion?

I've used Crowe in the past when I wanted someone in a Razorback.

Seeing how Tides don't effect our transports in any way that's just another reason not to field Crowe, no cost effective way to deliver him.

Not having Rites alone should be enough to disqualify him from almost every list, and that's just one of his problems.

**Waking Dreamer**

wuestenfux wrote:
greyknight12 wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
That list is weird.

It's not optimized to take advantage of any tides. Must have made a lot of deep strike charges in this tournament.

I'd guess it's probably taking heavy advantage of Tide of Shadows.

The more I look at the list the more it grows on me (and I'm fairly skeptical of Paladins!). I think that something like this and the 65-man PAGK lists are going to be our two main archetypes.

Seconded, the list looks strange.

I wonder about the initial setup of the units.
There are 6 Strike squads, three with the gate and three with the vortex.
I would deep strike the vortex units and set up the gate units regularly in turn 1.
The Paladin units have hammer-hand and so will be rather immobile on the board. The enemy will concentrate fire on them. If such a unit is set up regularly in turn 1, the enemy may try to withdraw his units from its fire range (24 + 5 = 29'').
Librarian and Chaplain are mandatory, while I would never use a named character.
Could somebody enlighten me about Voldus?

Lawrence breaksdown his list in the recent video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oWs72q9kRCo

**Xenomancers**

MiguelFelstone wrote:
tksolway wrote:
MiguelFelstone wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The question is do you want the Champ in combat with something that's T8?

Honest question, with all the great HQs we have, and all the powerful support abilities they bring (Brother Captain giving our 2 DMG smite double the range ect) - why would you ever field a Champion?

I've used Crowe in the past when I wanted someone in a Razorback.

Seeing how Tides don't effect our transports in any way that's just another reason not to field Crowe, no cost effective way to deliver him.

Not having Rites alone should be enough to disqualify him from almost every list, and that's just one of his problems.

Yeah - vehicles having no tides pretty much means anything that is a vehicle or requires a vehicle to function is obsolete. A very poor choice by GW there. When the leaks first started coming out I was most excited about vorti razorbacks and then we found out that only infantry benefited from that shooty tide...now we have clarification that no vehicles get tides. So GK vehicles cost more to do less...this is great stuff from GW.

**Slayer-Fan123**

And that doesn't make a lot of sense either, as the guys driving the Razorbacks are psyckic and that stuff.

**Murrax9**

I'm confused as to why people are seemingly throwing away the Grand Master in Dreadknight from their lists. I struggle to see how a Grey Knight list can function without at least one. I also think that the astral aim+landraider combo is just so good. A reminder that the 2x land raider GK list won a pretty big tournament in Australia last year. I like the idea of running 1 landraider and 2 Grand Master Nemesis Dreadknights along with 8 or so paladins. Then just bring a Battalion with 3x strike squads, bring 2 librarians, draigo and a brother captain. You can put on a lot of pressure with this list and still have some solid anti tank with the landraider. At the very least it's a distraction carnifex.

**Kharn_The_Betrayer_87**

Murrax9 wrote:
I'm confused as to why people are seemingly throwing away the Grand Master in Dreadknight from their lists. I struggle to see how a Grey Knight list can function without at least one. I also think that the astral aim+landraider combo is just so good. A reminder that the 2x land raider GK list won a pretty big tournament in Australia last year. I like the idea of running 1 landraider and 2 Grand Master Nemesis Dreadknights along with 8 or so paladins. Then just bring a Battalion with 3x strike squads, bring 2 librarians, draigo and a brother captain. You can put on a lot of pressure with this list and still have some solid anti tank with the landraider. At the very least it's a distraction carnifex.

to be fair the guy playing that list in Australia was Erik Lathouras, he could enter a GT with a dried piece of toast in place of a 2000pt list and come out a winner. He is also interestingly enough on a podcast by thenormalblokes.com talking about that experience and list of match ups in that tournament plus a couple of the art of war podcasts on frontline gaming's channel speaking about his nid and genestealer cult lists and games. In all seriousness though you are right, so many people get uppity about whatever the new hotness or "must have" units are and forget any other type of tactical flexibility other units could contribute just because the majority says they aren't "meta". bit sad.

**Waking Dreamer**

Murrax9 wrote:
I'm confused as to why people are seemingly throwing away the Grand Master in Dreadknight from their lists. I struggle to see how a Grey Knight list can function without at least one. I also think that the astral aim+landraider combo is just so good. A reminder that the 2x land raider GK list won a pretty big tournament in Australia last year.

You do know that a completely infantry GK list claimed a 6-0 victory in a tournament just on the weekend? The GK player was one of only 2 of the armies that were undefeated (the other was the Iron Hands army who came in first place).

I'm not going to say GMNDK are bad, though even the champion of the Aussie tournament you're referencing said in an interview, that if he was to revamp his GK list, the first thing to go would be his lone GMNDK...so competitively I certainly don't think they're essential anymore.

**Neophyte2012**

Murrax9 wrote:
I'm confused as to why people are seemingly throwing away the Grand Master in Dreadknight from their lists. I struggle to see how a Grey Knight list can function without at least one. I also think that the astral aim+landraider combo is just so good. A reminder that the 2x land raider GK list won a pretty big tournament in Australia last year. I like the idea of running 1 landraider and 2 Grand Master Nemesis Dreadknights along with 8 or so paladins. Then just bring a Battalion with 3x strike squads, bring 2 librarians, draigo and a brother captain. You can put on a lot of pressure with this list and still have some solid anti tank with the landraider. At the very least it's a distraction carnifex.

I think the problem with Land Raider is that it could easily be shut down by charged units, with the things like White Scar bikers, Genestealers that have a potential charge threat range of 30" - 40" and other fast enough units like Lord Discord, Seeker bombs and Keeper of Secret, the Land Raider is as good as a dead weight in your army from Turn 1. This drawback has never been mitigated.

**wuestenfux**

Well, a LR with astral aim in the backfield is wasted as it strips off its strength as an assault vehicle.

**Herodius**

Neophyte2012 wrote:
Murrax9 wrote:
I'm confused as to why people are seemingly throwing away the Grand Master in Dreadknight from their lists. I struggle to see how a Grey Knight list can function without at least one. I also think that the astral aim+landraider combo is just so good. A reminder that the 2x land raider GK list won a pretty big tournament in Australia last year. I like the idea of running 1 landraider and 2 Grand Master Nemesis Dreadknights along with 8 or so paladins. Then just bring a Battalion with 3x strike squads, bring 2 librarians, draigo and a brother captain. You can put on a lot of pressure with this list and still have some solid anti tank with the landraider. At the very least it's a distraction carnifex.

I think the problem with Land Raider is that it could easily be shut down by charged units, with the things like White Scar bikers, Genestealers that have a potential charge threat range of 30" - 40" and other fast enough units like Lord Discord, Seeker bombs and Keeper of Secret, the Land Raider is as good as a dead weight in your army from Turn 1. This drawback has never been mitigated.

As long as you build around it, you can always Gate of Infinity the tagged Land Raider out. It might prevent you from Gating another unit, but in that case, you could build a list around Interceptors (who can just shunt) instead of relying on a Gate to get a Paladin bomb where it needs to be.

**tksolway**

Neophyte2012 wrote:

I think the problem with Land Raider is that it could easily be shut down by charged units, with the things like White Scar bikers, Genestealers that have a potential charge threat range of 30" - 40" and other fast enough units like Lord Discord, Seeker bombs and Keeper of Secret, the Land Raider is as good as a dead weight in your army from Turn 1. This drawback has never been mitigated.

This is why I love my Vortimer LR, go ahead, charge me :-), Now that the incinerators are 12" even units with good charge bonuses can't help but take those 2D6 auto-hits. Still my preferred way of delivering some paladin beat down, I fail way to many 9" charges, even with a re-roll. Next 2k game I get in I want to play the mechanized list I posted earlier. My game next week ended up being 1K, so I'll have to wait a bit.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Herodius wrote:

As long as you build around it, you can always Gate of Infinity the tagged Land Raider out. It might prevent you from Gating another unit, but in that case, you could build a list around Interceptors (who can just shunt) instead of relying on a Gate to get a Paladin bomb where it needs to be.

I've tried this in the past, the main issue is the timing. Your guys are stuck in the LR until the next move phase, so your opponent has a full turn to react to their presence. Beyond the fact that your opponent has a full turn to prepare for whatever pops out of the LR, there's a lot that can happen to the Emperor's most hollowed transport in that one turn. Every time I've tried this, it has ended badly for me.

The way I have used this effectively in the past is to gate a LR full of threat behind my opponent's lines. It's tough to do, because you opponent has to have left enough space to fit a bloody Land Raider and it's 9" bubble behind them, but it is possible. When you can manage this it will generally force him to rip up whatever plans he had, as it is a threat that simply can't be ignored. Inevitably they split their forces and make your job easier.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I built a 1K list that I want to focus on using the Tides with, I think the extra MW will be the best, but the tide of shooty are an option when appropriate too. Let me know what you think.

Spoiler:

**Xenomancers**

GMDK is a 1 or none option now. You can utilize stratagems and it is somewhat durable. The 1 damage smite is a dager for it though. He really isn't that great anymore.

LR is terrible. REally over costed even in an Ultramarines list which can negate it's weakness of fall back and shoot. Easily 50 points overcosted.

**Slayer-Fan123**

I can make a case for three of the regular ones with just Flamers and Fists. If you're trying to make use of tides though, they're an expensive investment with all the crap that Paladins got.

**MiguelFelstone**

Murrax9 wrote:
I'm confused as to why people are seemingly throwing away the Grand Master in Dreadknight from their lists.

I've been running a Dreadhammer Psy/Psi GMND in my Interceptor heavy list, even without Astral Aim - Edict gave them a little more flexibility.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

tksolway wrote:
I built a 1K list that I want to focus on using the Tides with, I think the extra MW will be the best, but the tide of shooty are an option when appropriate too. Let me know what you think.

I wouldn't run Draigo over Voldus in any list, we have other sources of rerolls now and Voldus is incredible in PA.

**tksolway**

MiguelFelstone wrote:

I wouldn't run Draigo over Voldus in any list, we have other sources of rerolls now and Voldus is incredible in PA.

Why do you run Voldus over Draigo? Is it just the additional power?

In this list I'd rather have the survivability and the better re-roll than the extra power. The only extra power I would give him is the one to reduce wound rolls, and he would just casting it on himself anyway. In this list Draigo will be babysitting the purgation squad so the full re-roll will be useful as well.

Plus Draigo's model is infinitely better, probably because he's snorting all that fine assed warp dust :-)

**MiguelFelstone**

tksolway wrote:
MiguelFelstone wrote:

I wouldn't run Draigo over Voldus in any list, we have other sources of rerolls now and Voldus is incredible in PA.

Why do you run Voldus over Draigo? Is it just the additional power?

It's not just that, but this is a big one, we have new stratagems & spells (Ethereal Manipulation ect) that reroll hit increase or modify them.
Voldus has a lot more versatility and he costs 30 points less.

**tksolway**

MiguelFelstone wrote:

It's not just that, but this is a big one, we have new stratagems & spells (Ethereal Manipulation ect) that reroll hit increase or modify them.
Voldus has a lot more versatility and he costs 30 points less.

Well the only advantage he has is the one extra cast for 27 less points. I don't think Ethereal Manipulation is worth giving up the extra wound and better save. I can see where you are coming from, but I don't think that Voldus is an auto-include over Draigo. Draigo is still slightly better in CC, tougher, and hands out the full re-rolls. If that 27 points means the difference between another squad in your list, then it probably makes sense to go with Voldus over Draigo, because they are close in value. But if you can find those 27 points, I think Draigo is the better overall HQ.

If you are simply looking for more casting, then I would be dropping a Libby anyway, since you can throw the shard on him.

**greyknight12**

Not to keep beating a dead horse, but the other reason to not take a landraider as a firebase is that for 145 points you get basically 3/4 of the firepower with a missile-las Ven Dread, but the Ven dread can hide because it's a pretty small model. It also benefits from tides (boy do I miss those old psychic pilot rules...)

**Slayer-Fan123**

Ven Dreads can at least fight back if something goes into melee with them (still hitting like a wet noodle though). The Land Raider not getting a penalty to hit while moving also doesn't matter because the Ven Dread starts at BS2+ anyway.

Gun Ven Dreads are a default to me for the army.

**Mud Turkey 13**

Xenomancers wrote:
GMDK is a 1 or none option now. You can utilize stratagems and it is somewhat durable. The 1 damage smite is a dager for it though. He really isn't that great anymore.

LR is terrible. REally over costed even in an Ultramarines list which can negate it's weakness of fall back and shoot. Easily 50 points overcosted.

Do GMDKs not get buffed by Tides?

**Waking Dreamer**

Mud Turkey 13 wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
GMDK is a 1 or none option now. You can utilize stratagems and it is somewhat durable. The 1 damage smite is a dager for it though. He really isn't that great anymore.

LR is terrible. REally over costed even in an Ultramarines list which can negate it's weakness of fall back and shoot. Easily 50 points overcosted.

Do GMDKs not get buffed by Tides?

With half of the Tides only. Tide of Shadows and Tide of Escalation.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Makes me wonder though, if GMNDK were also effected by the Tide of Convergence, would people be spamming 2-3 of them, instead of say 1-2 Paladin bombs?

Or a combination of both?

**wuestenfux**

Waking Dreamer wrote:
Mud Turkey 13 wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
GMDK is a 1 or none option now. You can utilize stratagems and it is somewhat durable. The 1 damage smite is a dager for it though. He really isn't that great anymore.

LR is terrible. REally over costed even in an Ultramarines list which can negate it's weakness of fall back and shoot. Easily 50 points overcosted.

Do GMDKs not get buffed by Tides?

With half of the Tides only. Tide of Shadows and Tide of Escalation.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Makes me wonder though, if GMNDK were also effected by the Tide of Convergence, would people be spamming 2-3 of them, instead of say 1-2 Paladin bombs?

Or a combination of both?

Half of the tides work only for infantry models.

**Mud Turkey 13**

I am going to play my friend's Grey Knights later today, so I am trying to get a grasp on some of their new stuff.

Do things like Land Raiders or Razorbacks benefit from Tide of Shadows or Escalation?

**MiguelFelstone**

Mud Turkey 13 wrote:
I am going to play my friend's Grey Knights later today, so I am trying to get a grasp on some of their new stuff.

Do things like Land Raiders or Razorbacks benefit from Tide of Shadows or Escalation?

No.

**Waking Dreamer**

wuestenfux wrote:
Waking Dreamer wrote:

Makes me wonder though, if GMNDK were also effected by the Tide of Convergence, would people be spamming 2-3 of them, instead of say 1-2 Paladin bombs?

Or a combination of both?

Half of the tides work only for infantry models.

I think that was to limit the GMNDK clutch/spam. Seeing as how:
- 7ed = Codex: Nemesis Dreadknight
- 8ed = Codex: Grandmaster in Nemesis Dreadknight
- PA4 = Supplement: ~~Grandmaster in Nem~~....nope. Not anymore....

**Slayer-Fan123**

wuestenfux wrote:
Waking Dreamer wrote:
Mud Turkey 13 wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
GMDK is a 1 or none option now. You can utilize stratagems and it is somewhat durable. The 1 damage smite is a dager for it though. He really isn't that great anymore.

LR is terrible. REally over costed even in an Ultramarines list which can negate it's weakness of fall back and shoot. Easily 50 points overcosted.

Do GMDKs not get buffed by Tides?

With half of the Tides only. Tide of Shadows and Tide of Escalation.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Makes me wonder though, if GMNDK were also effected by the Tide of Convergence, would people be spamming 2-3 of them, instead of say 1-2 Paladin bombs?

Or a combination of both?

Half of the tides work only for infantry models.

Which is fine because only half of them are worth using anyway. Shooting Tide doesn't count in the fact we don't have great heavy weapon saturation, and while rerolling 1s to wound in melee for everyone is amazing by itself (that's half a free Lt. for everyone), the survivability offered by the Survival Tide is just too great, and getting off easy Mortal wounds...well that's a bit more important.

**Galas**

Shooting tide was the pivotal point of Lawrence double paladin bomb list. One with full heavy weapons, the other with full stormbolters for Psybolt Ammunition stratagem.