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Here's Sieglers thoughts on the new Necrons:

https://www.theartofwar40k.com/home/necrons-vs-ultramarines-stream-match

 Galas wrote:
Eldar share literally 0 units, theres no reason whatsoever to consolidate them. Marines are an exception because they share a ton of units.

It makes sense for the Triumvirate of Yvrainne thing. And yeah, make each of the two stand alone. Flesh out more of the Yvrainne "third". It should be more than a couple named characters you must take every time all the time to do it. Add in a couple unnamed, add in some Elites who have some sort of peacemaker/leader/buffer role between the other two. Give the army a penalty when the two are around each other without the buffer, then they get a bonus. They could build a similar system for Animosity for Chaos Daemons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Void__Dragon wrote:

Tyel wrote:

But I think you could fix them by just cutting the points significantly.

Only in the sense that to fix them you would have to make them so overwhelmingly powerful that they'd make Marines look like Genestealer Cults by comparison.

Tau are the most binary army in the game save for maybe knights (who also suck the balls). To work in ninth with just point cuts they'd have to be able to blast the enemy army off the board and cripple their scoring power completely to make up for the fact that they have no capability to flip objectives. Straight buffing the most cancer army in the game (yes my friends even more than Marines) save perhaps knights is not the solution (at least not if they want to hard cap ppm at 5 points or higher, I guess to give them more melee punch they could make kroot laughably cheap to push people off of objectives or just swarm them without dying but even then I doubt it would work lol).

That's why I'd like to see a VERY LIMITED version of their Jet Pack shenanigans return. Shoot someone off the objective, scoot onto the objective during the Charge Phase. They just have to do it in such a way you can't move out from behind LOS Blocker, shoot, Scoot back behind LOS blocker. They need to be able to end the turn on an objective the opponent was on at the start of their turn.

The experiment with an army that only does damage in the shooting phase was a miserable failure. They should just bite the bullet and admit as much, and give T'au meaningful combat options.

yukishiro1 wrote:
The experiment with an army that only does damage in the shooting phase was a miserable failure. They should just bite the bullet and admit as much, and give T'au meaningful combat options.

Hold on, I thought 40k was too deadly in the shooting phase, melee was too weak and ranged firepower was king?

Drukhari just need a couple of new HQs, and that's entirely because of the 8th-9th listbuilding mechanics. If they weren't divided into three sort of subfactions they'd be perfectly fine with their current line of models and datasheets.

Their range is pretty fine, they don't really need anything else.

Ynnari could be a supplement for all three aeldari factions, but aeldari shouldn't be condensed into the same book: drukhari and craftworlds are separate factions that can't stand each other, with their own governments and leaders; they're not like SM chapters which are basically just different regiments from the same faction taking orders from the same leader.

And IMHO even condensing SM into the same codex was a bad move, it was just another way for GW to get more money from SM players: now standalone chapters' players need to spend more money in books and have access to more kits that can finally buy. Win win for GW. Not for the players who didn't need the extra range of options.

Dudeface wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
The experiment with an army that only does damage in the shooting phase was a miserable failure. They should just bite the bullet and admit as much, and give T'au meaningful combat options.

Hold on, I thought 40k was too deadly in the shooting phase, melee was too weak and ranged firepower was king?

Aye, the shooting focus isn't the issue for Tau, the issue is that someone decided a combined arms faction with mechsuits should be crutchmechsuits drones and some fodder instead of what it was and should've been. Not to mention the whole auxilia schtick...

 Blackie wrote:
And IMHO even condensing SM into the same codex was a bad move, it was just another way for GW to get more money from SM players: now standalone chapters' players need to spend more money in books and have access to more kits that can finally buy. Win win for GW. Not for the players who didn't need the extra range of options.

Come on man, this complaining is getting ridicolous. By that logic Dark Eldar players should be happy they got options removed, so they don't have to spend money on them.

What is better. Have a bad options, be told you have it, yet never use it, because it is bad.
Or have limited number of options, but by some trick of the design team intent and playtesters not reporting results an army with practicaly 6 models becoming God, but being very limited in how you can build it.

a_typical_hero wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
And IMHO even condensing SM into the same codex was a bad move, it was just another way for GW to get more money from SM players: now standalone chapters' players need to spend more money in books and have access to more kits that can finally buy. Win win for GW. Not for the players who didn't need the extra range of options.

Come on man, this complaining is getting ridicolous. By that logic Dark Eldar players should be happy they got options removed, so they don't have to spend money on them.

As someone with a space wolf army I'm cautiously optimistic about this. the indexes are impressive so there's that. that said I have a hunch we're going to lose some old favorite relics with the supplements.

Karol wrote:
What is better. Have a bad options, be told you have it, yet never use it, because it is bad.
Or have limited number of options, but by some trick of the design team intent and playtesters not reporting results an army with practicaly 6 models becoming God, but being very limited in how you can build it.

Neither. God Mode gets boring fast. As does the frustration of being odd man out.

Karol wrote:
What is better. Have a bad options, be told you have it, yet never use it, because it is bad.
Or have limited number of options, but by some trick of the design team intent and playtesters not reporting results an army with practicaly 6 models becoming God, but being very limited in how you can build it.

IMHO having options is better than not having them. Rules will change, models stay with you.

a_typical_hero wrote:
As someone with a space wolf army I'm cautiously optimistic about this. the indexes are impressive so there's that. that said I have a hunch we're going to lose some old favorite relics with the supplements.

Same boat here with my Blood Angels. It absolutely sucks to not have access to Wings until November (maybe?) and some relics were great. There are a few core options that I would be sad to lose without getting a proper replacement, but the Index rules are very promising in the meantime.

a_typical_hero wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
And IMHO even condensing SM into the same codex was a bad move, it was just another way for GW to get more money from SM players: now standalone chapters' players need to spend more money in books and have access to more kits that can finally buy. Win win for GW. Not for the players who didn't need the extra range of options.

Come on man, this complaining is getting ridicolous. By that logic Dark Eldar players should be happy they got options removed, so they don't have to spend money on them.

It's not the same thing. SW had already tons of options, including 10 named characters, and they really didn't need anything more. The whole codex+supplement thing is just a move to get more money from the customers, it's a clear way to tempt people to buy those older kits which are currently on life support. There is no real benefit for anyone from condensing the SM codex, all the new possible combos have no real impact gamewise, and all the most recent SM units (read primaris) were already available to standalone chapters.

Those options removed from Drukhari are the same options removed from pretty much everyone else's codexes, units/wargear that had a datasheet but no official kit/bitz.

From my perspective having to buy an overpriced book with just 20ish pages of interesting stuff is bad.

 Blackie wrote:

a_typical_hero wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
And IMHO even condensing SM into the same codex was a bad move, it was just another way for GW to get more money from SM players: now standalone chapters' players need to spend more money in books and have access to more kits that can finally buy. Win win for GW. Not for the players who didn't need the extra range of options.

Come on man, this complaining is getting ridicolous. By that logic Dark Eldar players should be happy they got options removed, so they don't have to spend money on them.

It's not the same thing. SW had already tons of options, including 10 named characters, and they really didn't need anything more. The whole codex+supplement thing is just a move to get more money from the customers, it's a clear way to tempt people to buy those older kits which are currently on life support. There is no real benefit for anyone from condensing the SM codex, all the new possible combos have no real impact gamewise, and all the most recent SM units (read primaris) were already available to standalone chapters.

Those options removed from Drukhari are the same options removed from pretty much everyone else's codexes, units/wargear that had a datasheet but no official kit/bitz.

From my perspective having to buy an overpriced book with just 20ish pages of interesting stuff is bad.

not really. speaking as a guy whose a space wolf player, this is proably a good thing as it means no waiting a year and a half with an index while Ultramarine players have a codex.

BrianDavion wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Hecaton wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
are you refering to suit commander spam? because GW generally tried to cut down on every faction that spammed HQs, Tau and Marines both got hit with a detachment limit on their beat stick HQs (Marines got that limit in codex 9.0) Tyranids resulted in the rule of 3 becoming a thing..

Just the general state of the game in 9th - the game rewards you for taking objectives in the center field but they didn't bother to give Tau any meaningful ways to do that. So Tau should just be happy to wait around for a few years while their army isn't functional in the current edition... it's pathetic.

And what "meaningful way" to do that should GW have given Tau?

I dunno, I could come up with some kind of ability maybe where after a unit you want to designate as kind of an armored battle-suit that seizes the objectives before the troops go to hold it, they could possibly shoot, and then hve some sort of post-shoot movement to make up for the fact that as a faction, Tau do not get the free movement inherent to charging.

proably but would it be something quick and easy to FAQ into the army? proably not.

I dunno, we've got time to write completely new datasheets abilities etc for every single sub-faction marine unit to make sure that space wolves players don't have to wait an extra *checks notes* 2 months between the update they got in april and their new codex coming in november or so.

It's cool for every CSM faction to play 1W marines vs 2W marines though, that's fine, and we certainly don't need to do anything to make Tau function in 9th ed between now and 2021.

Or anybody fething else, apparently. Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeverybody gets to wait while they slowly, laboriously update the current meta-dominant faction. Again.

without a Index many of BA, SW etc armies are literally unplayable. I don't mean "Really really bad like greyknights before PA literally unplayable" I mean literally as in "the dataslates for a lot of their units have dissappered" unplayable. I don't think it's reasonable to tell a DA player "yeah technicly you can't use half your models for the next 3 months"

They could have just spent all of 3minutes and written "BA/DA/SW/DW players, just ignore the new Marine Codex for now and continue using your old Codex+PA until we have released the relevant supplement for you. We do recommend you buy the codex and read through it before then to see some of the changes we have made and give some clues to what direction your armies will go in the next few months when you also have supplements like the other marine chapters.".

Instead they both buffed the armies but also gutted them. It is not that the rules we got are bad, they are actually great and have more flavor to them. But without the psychic powers, traits, relics and stratagems they just play like much worse versions of themselves. Much weaker overall than White Scars, Salamanders or Ravenguard. Unless you spam the units that are too good(inner circle, SW melee dreads, sanguinary guard) and just play point and click with the superior data sheets. But I dont have more than 10SG and my SW friend dont have 6 dreads with ++ saves and -1dmg. The DA guys with all their terminators are happy but I dont think anyone who will play against 3W 1+/4++ 6+++ and transhuman on everything will be happy.

If the already existing Index entries don't change come the supplements then get ready for a miserable few months until the next CA.

Sanguinary Guard and Priests are actually disgusting now despite not having a lot of their stratagems. If those get added back in then unless you're looking for a competitive game I would highly recommend avoiding fighting BA armies.

BrianDavion wrote:


not really. speaking as a guy whose a space wolf player, this is proably a good thing as it means no waiting a year and a half with an index while Ultramarine players have a codex.

We already had a perfectly functioning codex and a supplement that was released only 6 months ago. Just a FAQ/update page to correct a few things like new weapons profile and the +1W on firstborn dudes instead of the index and we would have been ok until a proper 9th edition codex. I would have preferred it over a SM codex + SW supplement.

Seriously, who's gonna add thunderfire cannons, centurions or stormravens to their SW armies?

 Blackie wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:


not really. speaking as a guy whose a space wolf player, this is proably a good thing as it means no waiting a year and a half with an index while Ultramarine players have a codex.

We already had a perfectly functioning codex and a supplement that was released only 6 months ago. Just a FAQ/update page to correct a few things like new weapons profile and the +1W on firstborn dudes instead of the index and we would have been ok until a proper 9th edition codex. I would have preferred it over a SM codex + SW supplement.

Seriously, who's gonna add thunderfire cannons, centurions or stormravens to their SW armies?

Those that want them especially if said units happen to be good?

 Blackie wrote:
Seriously, who's gonna add thunderfire cannons, centurions or stormravens to their SW armies?

Yeah I'm dead certain that Woof players would be more than content to sit around for a year plus whilst every other Marine gets 2 wounds a piece.

 Blackie wrote:
Seriously, who's gonna add thunderfire cannons, centurions or stormravens to their SW armies?

 Blackie wrote:
And IMHO even condensing SM into the same codex was a bad move, it was just another way for GW to get more money from SM players: now standalone chapters' players need to spend more money in books and have access to more kits that can finally buy. Win win for GW. Not for the players who didn't need the extra range of options.

Emphasize mine. On one side you say that it is bad for GW that options got added, "tricking" people into buying stuff they could not access before. On the other side you say that nobody will bother buying that stuff anyway. Why was it a bad move, then? Those two posts feel contradictory to me.

Note I'm not going into the argument about paying extra for books. From 3rd to 6th (were I stopped playing) it was normal for a Space Marine players in my area to get the vanilla 'dex and their special book, be it a supplement, WD article or a full codex. Reason behind it was that you did not get an update every edition, so you took the latest book you could get with the newest rules and models for the overall faction (Space Marines) you were playing. I understand your argument, but I don't agree based on my own experience.

a_typical_hero wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
Seriously, who's gonna add thunderfire cannons, centurions or stormravens to their SW armies?

 Blackie wrote:
And IMHO even condensing SM into the same codex was a bad move, it was just another way for GW to get more money from SM players: now standalone chapters' players need to spend more money in books and have access to more kits that can finally buy. Win win for GW. Not for the players who didn't need the extra range of options.

Emphasize mine. On one side you say that it is bad for GW that options got added, "tricking" people into buying stuff they could not access before. On the other side you say that nobody will bother buying that stuff anyway. Why was it a bad move, then? Those two posts feel contradictory to me.

Note I'm not going into the argument about paying extra for books. From 3rd to 6th (were I stopped playing) it was normal for a Space Marine players in my area to get the vanilla 'dex and their special book, be it a supplement, WD article or a full codex. Reason behind it was that you did not get an update every edition, so you took the latest book you could get with the newest rules and models for the overall faction (Space Marines) you were playing. I understand your argument, but I don't agree based on my own experience.

But back then you still only bought one marine book every other year even if you bought the extra chapters. Wouldnt be surprised if there were more books with marine rules released in 2019 and 2020 together than the first 20 years of the game. 2 Codex Space Marine, 2 Chapter Approved, 11 Supplements, 4 Psychic Awakening with marine rules. That is 19 books. Actually tried to look this up at right now and what I found was that between 1993-2012 there were also 19 books with rules for marines in them. Its only since like 2013 or so there was more than a book a year and now its almost 10.

You didnt even have to buy a book a year back then if you bought all the books with the marine rules in them. Daemonhunters included.

As for who'll buy stormravens as a wolf player, I can think of some uses for it.the stormwolf can transport 16 guys, that's great for a full pack of bloodclaws or something, but being able to airdrop Bjorn and a buncha wolfguard has some appeal.

a_typical_hero wrote:

Karol wrote:
What is better. Have a bad options, be told you have it, yet never use it, because it is bad.
Or have limited number of options, but by some trick of the design team intent and playtesters not reporting results an army with practicaly 6 models becoming God, but being very limited in how you can build it.

IMHO having options is better than not having them. Rules will change, models stay with you.

This. Absolutely this.

BrianDavion wrote:
As for who'll buy stormravens as a wolf player, I can think of some uses for it.the stormwolf can transport 16 guys, that's great for a full pack of bloodclaws or something, but being able to airdrop Bjorn and a buncha wolfguard has some appeal.

The mental image of Bjorn falling out of the back of a Storm Raven, in that Dawn of War Dread voice yelling "Even in death, I still (grav/para) -chuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuute" before you see a big donut of dust where he lands Roadrunner and Coyote style will never cease to entertain me.

BrianDavion wrote:
As for who'll buy stormravens as a wolf player, I can think of some uses for it.the stormwolf can transport 16 guys, that's great for a full pack of bloodclaws or something, but being able to airdrop Bjorn and a buncha wolfguard has some appeal.

Imagining a frothing berserker Dreadnought already taking swings at the air and screaming battle cries while it gets delivered to the frontline is pretty damn hilarious in all the right ways.

a_typical_hero wrote:


Emphasize mine. On one side you say that it is bad for GW that options got added, "tricking" people into buying stuff they could not access before. On the other side you say that nobody will bother buying that stuff anyway. Why was it a bad move, then? Those two posts feel contradictory to me.

You're right, I wasn't clear enough. I never said bad for GW, I just said bad speaking for myself. Anything that let GW sell more models, books, etc is actually good for the company, the opposite of bad.

What I meant to say is that those new available options really don't add anything that was needed for the army, so gamewise there's no reason to buy old SM stuff that wasn't allowed for standalone chapeters before, but someone could be tricked into buy it anyway because there are people who feel obliged to buy everything related to their faction.

It's actually a pretty common thing about all kinds of fanbases, just think about bands' fans who rant about their idols releasing tons of greatest hits or live albums because they have to buy them even if they don't want to and they actually do, or those Star Wars fans that can't stand the modern movies but keep going to the theatres to watch every new episode.

From my perspective I said "bad" because with the same effort GW could have released more useful or more interesting things for the customer, or at least for me as I can't speak for everyone of course. Drukhari or ork HQs for example, new plastic aeldari, or even chapter related primaris kits like the Grey Hunters/Blood Claws box (compared to the Tac Marines one).

I also don't share the obsession of getting new codexes every couple of years. We are already in an era of frequent FAQs and Chapter Approved is released every year. Adepta sororitas got their codex in 2020, did they need a new codex just because GW wanted to upgrade some weapons? No, they got a FAQ document and they're good with it. So factions like SW could have just got their FAQ with the needed changes like the +1W to firstborn units and the uptaded weapons.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:
As for who'll buy stormravens as a wolf player, I can think of some uses for it.the stormwolf can transport 16 guys, that's great for a full pack of bloodclaws or something, but being able to airdrop Bjorn and a buncha wolfguard has some appeal.

May be true for dreads, but our stormraven equivalent could already carry 16 guys.

BrianDavion wrote:

 harlokin wrote:

Breton wrote:

Either that or really roll all the Eldar into one and let them synergize effectively. Or both. Both would be best. I liked the Ynarri gimmick, but they didn't really deliver on it.

Yeah, that would give me a really good push to find another hobby.

depends how they did it, if they put all the units into one codex, and presented it as a "you can play eldar, dark eldar or yannari with one book now. if you play CWE these are your rules and restrictions, if dark eldar these are etc" it could work out alright. then put out a supplement for each that dives into more nitty gritty.

That would just be End Times Elves and we all know how that ended. (Hint: High Elves are no longer a faction and dark elves are a shadow of their former self).

Not a fan of the idea.

 Eldarsif wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 harlokin wrote:

Breton wrote:

Either that or really roll all the Eldar into one and let them synergize effectively. Or both. Both would be best. I liked the Ynarri gimmick, but they didn't really deliver on it.

Yeah, that would give me a really good push to find another hobby.

depends how they did it, if they put all the units into one codex, and presented it as a "you can play eldar, dark eldar or yannari with one book now. if you play CWE these are your rules and restrictions, if dark eldar these are etc" it could work out alright. then put out a supplement for each that dives into more nitty gritty.

That would just be End Times Elves and we all know how that ended. (Hint: High Elves are no longer a faction and dark elves are a shadow of their former self).

Not a fan of the idea.

What Brian mentioned there is in essence just copy and pasting 3 existing books into 1, how is that any worse?

Dudeface wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
The experiment with an army that only does damage in the shooting phase was a miserable failure. They should just bite the bullet and admit as much, and give T'au meaningful combat options.

Hold on, I thought 40k was too deadly in the shooting phase, melee was too weak and ranged firepower was king?

Yep it is. Now add in the new 9th editions rules which require you to get into CC or at least be midfield by turn 2 at the absolute latest in order to cap objectives. Changes the picture a lot on how deadly a stand still gunline is. Yeah they might kill a lot of your units, but so long as 1 model survives midfield to hold that objective, you still win.

Dudeface wrote:

What Brian mentioned there is in essence just copy and pasting 3 existing books into 1, how is that any worse?

I'd be against it because, seeing as I more or less have to buy a dead tree codex, I would prefer that it just has my faction's stuff in it. Otherwise, it would be no worse than putting Astra Militarum and and Admech in one book....for convenience.

Dudeface wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 harlokin wrote:

Breton wrote:

Either that or really roll all the Eldar into one and let them synergize effectively. Or both. Both would be best. I liked the Ynarri gimmick, but they didn't really deliver on it.

Yeah, that would give me a really good push to find another hobby.

depends how they did it, if they put all the units into one codex, and presented it as a "you can play eldar, dark eldar or yannari with one book now. if you play CWE these are your rules and restrictions, if dark eldar these are etc" it could work out alright. then put out a supplement for each that dives into more nitty gritty.

That would just be End Times Elves and we all know how that ended. (Hint: High Elves are no longer a faction and dark elves are a shadow of their former self).

Not a fan of the idea.

What Brian mentioned there is in essence just copy and pasting 3 existing books into 1, how is that any worse?

Because I don't trust GW not to half-arse it?

"Well if there are 3 armies in one book (4 counting Ynnari), they don't really need 3 sets of relics and warlord traits, do they? We'll just give the Eldar armies one set of each and make them share."