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Made in ca
Deranged Necron Destroyer






 RaptorInMotion wrote:
pothocboots wrote:
That brings about a silly question.

Do Necrons having armor saves break the setting?

Think about it, when you shoot and hit a basic Necron warrior, what gets hit first? That's right, its skin.

Now sure, its skin might be made of metal, but that's not armor per se, and nominally would be better handled by Toughness.

In this way Necron Immortals totally make sense as T5, just as long as we fix their armor save to be 7+.

/s


From what little ive read of Necron appearances in novels, they sort of act like Glass Cannons that can get back up. Pretty fragile and fairly easy to put down, but its gonna get back up and disintegrate you, so probably best to get out of there!


Before the retcon, Warriors had the same stats as Marines, plus a roll to get back up. Immortals were also T5.

Only since Ward and the retcon have Warriors been glass cannons.

Girl Gamers are the best! 
   
Made in us
Terminator with Assault Cannon




San Jose, CA

JNAProductions wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Racerguy180 wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Racerguy180 wrote:
What broke the setting was marines going to t4...

T5 orks are great and am looking forward to purging them with promethium.

Marines have been T4 for like...more than 20 years right?

And......did it not break the setting or are you too fresh-faced? It's also been longer than 20yrs.

Not sure why it would break the setting that marines were T4 when they should be? Clearly they are tougher than a human being - they are 3x the size.
A GUO is easily 40X the size of a human, therefore they should have a Toughness of 20 or so, right?

Shhhhhhhhh...stop pointing out logic.

And it did break the setting Xeno. Those that chose to not care, didn't. Those that did still do, do.

But acting like this is an earth shattering(for you) thing, when it isn't, is just flat out lame.

And fluff hasn't translated to the tabletop for...wait how old is 40k?
   
Made in au
Growlin' Guntrukk Driver with Killacannon





OF course all of this is somewhat speciulation right?

On the gameplay side GW will likely up the points, possibly too far. Orks could be OP, balanced or weak based on numbers outside of the T value. (but based on the other Xenos books in 9th we should be fairly okay)

Orks have always been pretty damn tough in the lore, fighting even when considered dead. If GW ups their silly durability and gives it a nice comical swing then i'm up for it. Like an ork's head getting taken off but he still makes a dozen blind axe swings before keeling over. Possibly sinking the axe into one of his mates or some such. Just that fun chaotic energy that I adore from the greenskins.
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






 vipoid wrote:
I can't help but think that arguing with Xeno is akin to a game of football where one team pick up the goalposts, start running and never stop.

At first, the bewildered opponents kick the ball after them, trying to score a goal in spite of the moving goalposts.

After a while, however, the ball has long since been lost and now the opposing team have been reduced to merely keeping the speeding goalposts in sight.


I want to let you now that my keyboard is currently sitting upside down in the sun to dry from all the coffee I spit in it. Made my day, take an exalt.

This thread is hilarious. Kudos to semper, JNAProductions and others for actually arguing the topic with xeno in a rational manner, I can't do that any more.

Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




cody.d. wrote:
OF course all of this is somewhat speciulation right?

On the gameplay side GW will likely up the points, possibly too far. Orks could be OP, balanced or weak based on numbers outside of the T value. (but based on the other Xenos books in 9th we should be fairly okay)


You think other xeno books in 9th, were fairly okey? DE got hit by a enough unit nerfs, which would kill other armies, yet here they are sitll strong. In fact they probably still are the strongest army in 9th right now.


Orks have always been pretty damn tough in the lore, fighting even when considered dead. If GW ups their silly durability and gives it a nice comical swing then i'm up for it. Like an ork's head getting taken off but he still makes a dozen blind axe swings before keeling over. Possibly sinking the axe into one of his mates or some such. Just that fun chaotic energy that I adore from the greenskins.

The game in 8th had a long history of bad things happening, when cheap models started getting stronger or tougher. Catachans out being better at melee then marines, cultists being better then csm, IG being the core of every imperial army etc. Not knowing the other rules or the point costs, it is hard to judge right now, but just look what low point costs and 9th ed style book did to a cheap chaff unit like witchs or a succubus. The t5 agregates, specially if it is a buff to everything orks have. If orks bikers are cheap enough and get the +1T, they could be a big winner of the codex. Same with nobz .
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






And why exactly is two of the worst units being "big winners" a problem?

Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 Xenomancers wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:

You might notice...marines went to 2 wounds when all heavy infantry in the game got wound buffs.


They DID? INCREDIBLE!!!!!!!!

*aberrants spontaneously get wound buffs*

*tyranid warriors spontaneously get wound buffs*

*Wraithguard spontaneously get wound buffs*

*ogryn spontaneously get wound buffs*

*CSM spontaneously get wound buffs*

*Nobz spontaneously get wound buffs*

*Immortals spontaneously get wound buffs*

THANK YOU, XENOMANCERS, WE'RE CURED!!!!!!!

WG got 3 wounds Im pretty sure in 8th edd.
Warriors apparently had 3 wounds to begin with.
CSM oblitz got more wounds right? Possesed too
Nob bikes have what? 3 wounds? MAN 3 wounds?
Paladins went to 3 wounds?
Terms go to 3 wounds from 1 lol.
That all happened in 8th.

I think it is fair to say they fcked up with standard astatres and csm old marines from the start - they made the primaris which were going to replace the old but then they decided not to.

GW clearly had a philosphy with the game rules to increase wounds on next to anything - your post is a willful misrepresentation of my point and the reality of wounds stat going up on the majority of almost every unit in the game. Forget just heavy infantry. The majority of units in the game saw wounds increasing. AKA intellectual dishonesty. Disgusting. Like I seriously have to argue and waste my time convincing you people of facts.


-Literally says "All Heavy Infantry in the game"

-Point out that other than marine stuff, basically every well known heavy infantry unit in the game did not go up in wounds.

-Counter with "BuT mUh BiKeRs! and BuT mUh TeRmInAtOrs!!" Bikes and cav got increased wounds in 8th, basically all of them. WG might have gone to W3 but I thought they already were. The only thing you can point to here is Oblits going up to W4 with their price increase that made them as expensive as a basic dreadnought, lol.

-Accuse me of intellectual dishonesty.

Keep living the meme life Xeno.

Very many units in the game are still identically as durable in 9th as they were in 7th with the exact same defensive statline up against 9th ed levels of lethality. Just because you live in the 'got my updated 'dex' bubble does not mean other armies arent all sitting around wondering why their units melt like hot butter under a blowtorch.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in us
Dive-Bombin' Fighta-Bomba Pilot






 RaptorInMotion wrote:
pothocboots wrote:
That brings about a silly question.

Do Necrons having armor saves break the setting?

Think about it, when you shoot and hit a basic Necron warrior, what gets hit first? That's right, its skin.

Now sure, its skin might be made of metal, but that's not armor per se, and nominally would be better handled by Toughness.

In this way Necron Immortals totally make sense as T5, just as long as we fix their armor save to be 7+.

/s


From what little ive read of Necron appearances in novels, they sort of act like Glass Cannons that can get back up. Pretty fragile and fairly easy to put down, but its gonna get back up and disintegrate you, so probably best to get out of there!


unless its blood angels in which case hope there are enough vacancies in the hive worlds motels. #stillabetterlovestorythantwilight

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Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut





cody.d. wrote:
On the gameplay side GW will likely up the points, possibly too far. Orks could be OP, balanced or weak based on numbers outside of the T value. (but based on the other Xenos books in 9th we should be fairly okay)



Is this a joke? After DE and Harlequins being broken far beyond supposedly ""OP"" SM, I won't be holding by breath again. Of course there is a big chance of them being 'okay', that is, 'approaching 7th edition Eldar level of nonsense' "okay". In fact, I will be pretty shocked if orkstodes aren't the next 70% winrate army.

Orks have always been pretty damn tough in the lore

T4 IS being tough They literally have the same durability stat as superhuman soldier, they DON'T need to be equal to custodes, sister walkers, or smaller vehicles! If orks need to be tougher than that, give them FNP, not beyond idiotic stat inflation that makes bolters and heavy bolters, two weapons made to COUNTER orks less dangerous than lasguns to them!

 Blndmage wrote:
Before the retcon, Warriors had the same stats as Marines, plus a roll to get back up. Immortals were also T5.

Only since Ward and the retcon have Warriors been glass cannons.

""Glass cannons"" by going from 3+ to 4+ to differentiate them from Immortals (and being made if anything MORE durable for the points thanks to big points cut). Ward ensured both units had proper place (one didn't even exist in minds of players before) and playstyle allowing for more different army builds any edition before or since did with his troop slow swap idea (which lives on in AoS and it's pretty liked there).

I like when Ward criticism shows up, it's pretty much always laughably wrong nonsense (and in 90% of cases, it's based on fluff Ward didn't even wrote, he was responsible for mechanics side of the book) - not that I should be surprised, seeing most of it is regurgitated 4chan mudslinging that was reaching even back then
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




 Jidmah wrote:
And why exactly is two of the worst units being "big winners" a problem?


Because GW do not know what self moderation is, and this two units being "big winners" ended being one of the stones that ended up with DE being exactly the way they are, including the way they are now post nerfs. Orks were already having a better then marines win rates, why would they need more stuff? Just so the ork players are happy? I guess that could be a argument, if ork players were the majority of all players, which they clearly are not. And all of this is assuming GW did tone stuff down and didn't create a liquifires style problem with some rule for orks. Because if they did the next CA book is in 6 months.
If orks still have Jump and don't cost 10pts, the breaks on unit efficiency is going to be huge. Even some units that are not used right now could be used again, specially on multi wound models.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in de
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot






 Irbis wrote:
If orks need to be tougher than that, give them FNP, not beyond idiotic stat inflation that makes bolters and heavy bolters, two weapons made to COUNTER orks less dangerous than lasguns to them!

As this is the second time I read this: where the (heavy) bolters designed specifically with orks in mind? I really don't know, but would be interested to do so. Did big E see the orks as main adversaries when he planned the equipment of his SMs?
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






Karol wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
And why exactly is two of the worst units being "big winners" a problem?


Because GW do not know what self moderation is, and this two units being "big winners" ended being one of the stones that ended up with DE being exactly the way they are, including the way they are now post nerfs. Orks were already having a better then marines win rates, why would they need more stuff? Just so the ork players are happy? I guess that could be a argument, if ork players were the majority of all players, which they clearly are not. And all of this is assuming GW did tone stuff down and didn't create a liquifires style problem with some rule for orks. Because if they did the next CA book is in 6 months.
If orks still have Jump and don't cost 10pts, the breaks on unit efficiency is going to be huge. Even some units that are not used right now could be used again, specially on multi wound models.


So, I'm coming back to the question I have asked you multiple times now, which you refuse to answer.

Do you believe that GK should remain bad or even be made worse for the same reasons you believe that orks "deserve" should not get any good things?

Irrational hate for a faction is not healthy and you really should stay out of threads regarding that faction if you foster such a feeling.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/23 13:06:17


Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






Karol wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
And why exactly is two of the worst units being "big winners" a problem?


Because GW do not know what self moderation is, and this two units being "big winners" ended being one of the stones that ended up with DE being exactly the way they are, including the way they are now post nerfs. Orks were already having a better then marines win rates, why would they need more stuff? Just so the ork players are happy? I guess that could be a argument, if ork players were the majority of all players, which they clearly are not. And all of this is assuming GW did tone stuff down and didn't create a liquifires style problem with some rule for orks. Because if they did the next CA book is in 6 months.
If orks still have Jump and don't cost 10pts, the breaks on unit efficiency is going to be huge. Even some units that are not used right now could be used again, specially on multi wound models.


God, I feel silly asking this because I know you don't, but I'm honestly actually curious: Do we have any data for how post-nerf drukhari are doing? I've literally only seen like 1 largeish event post-nerf where there was 1 Drukhari player in like 5th place.

Found 1 more event post-nerf - Utah Open GT - top 4 Orks, IK, DG, Space Wolves.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/23 13:31:17


"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in us
Dive-Bombin' Fighta-Bomba Pilot






 the_scotsman wrote:
Karol wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
And why exactly is two of the worst units being "big winners" a problem?


Because GW do not know what self moderation is, and this two units being "big winners" ended being one of the stones that ended up with DE being exactly the way they are, including the way they are now post nerfs. Orks were already having a better then marines win rates, why would they need more stuff? Just so the ork players are happy? I guess that could be a argument, if ork players were the majority of all players, which they clearly are not. And all of this is assuming GW did tone stuff down and didn't create a liquifires style problem with some rule for orks. Because if they did the next CA book is in 6 months.
If orks still have Jump and don't cost 10pts, the breaks on unit efficiency is going to be huge. Even some units that are not used right now could be used again, specially on multi wound models.


God, I feel silly asking this because I know you don't, but I'm honestly actually curious: Do we have any data for how post-nerf drukhari are doing? I've literally only seen like 1 largeish event post-nerf where there was 1 Drukhari player in like 5th place.


looking on BCP i don't think we have enough info post nerf yet, maybe after the next few weekends we will have enough data to draw some meaningful info beyond a few small events some of which may have used prefaq DE

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Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






 Pyroalchi wrote:
 Irbis wrote:
If orks need to be tougher than that, give them FNP, not beyond idiotic stat inflation that makes bolters and heavy bolters, two weapons made to COUNTER orks less dangerous than lasguns to them!

As this is the second time I read this: where the (heavy) bolters designed specifically with orks in mind? I really don't know, but would be interested to do so. Did big E see the orks as main adversaries when he planned the equipment of his SMs?

Orks being Xeno/Alien - yes. They were specifically designed to be effective against giant monsters and crap back when the imperium conquered 2 MILLION worlds - yes...2 MILLION. Orks in literally every iteration of film or written excerpt are fodder whos only threat is being large in number. They aren't even presented as being particularly tough - but strong - even measly las guns kill them effectively. Str 5 would honestly make MORE sense than T5. It makes 0 sense that bolters have an easier time wounding other Astartes ether.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
https://www.40kstats.com/utahgamersalliance
It is utterly hilarious.
Orks take first place in a 68 man tournament against hordes of 70% WR Drukari...

Yes...We should totally give orks T5 and -1 on their choppas to compensate for their weakness.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/23 13:47:21


 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 Xenomancers wrote:
 Pyroalchi wrote:
 Irbis wrote:
If orks need to be tougher than that, give them FNP, not beyond idiotic stat inflation that makes bolters and heavy bolters, two weapons made to COUNTER orks less dangerous than lasguns to them!

As this is the second time I read this: where the (heavy) bolters designed specifically with orks in mind? I really don't know, but would be interested to do so. Did big E see the orks as main adversaries when he planned the equipment of his SMs?

Orks being Xeno/Alien - yes. They were specifically designed to be effective against giant monsters and crap back when the imperium conquered 2 MILLION worlds - yes...2 MILLION. Orks in literally every iteration of film or written excerpt are fodder whos only threat is being large in number. They aren't even presented as being particularly tough - but strong - even measly las guns kill them effectively. Str 5 would honestly make MORE sense than T5. It makes 0 sense that bolters have an easier time wounding other Astartes ether.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
https://www.40kstats.com/utahgamersalliance
It is utterly hilarious.
Orks take first place in a 68 man tournament against hordes of 70% WR Drukari...

Yes...We should totally give orks T5 and -1 on their choppas to compensate for their weakness.


Quick translation of Xeno to human here for folks: "Hordes" should be taken to mean "Five."
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




 the_scotsman wrote:


God, I feel silly asking this because I know you don't, but I'm honestly actually curious: Do we have any data for how post-nerf drukhari are doing? I've literally only seen like 1 largeish event post-nerf where there was 1 Drukhari player in like 5th place.

Found 1 more event post-nerf - Utah Open GT - top 4 Orks, IK, DG, Space Wolves.


If they were doing bad, then you would be seeing them sold en mass. In europe they are winning a ton, they didn't even have the suppose meta adjustment to the DE lists, US supposably had. Unless of course, main land europe events don't count. Then yeah. I don't know how they are doing, besides that they are probably around the same, maybe a bit better then what harlequins were before the new DE book droped down.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/23 14:00:04


If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Annandale, VA

 Xenomancers wrote:
Orks in literally every iteration of film or written excerpt are fodder whos only threat is being large in number.


I remember them killing Marines one-on-one in the Dawn of War intro, so, nah. Inb4 another goalpost shift.

Also, for anyone still following this mess of a thread, I want to point out that the idea of bolters being specifically designed to effortlessly kill Orks is a relatively recent addition from the Horus Heresy books. 'Bolters were made to counter Orks' is a concept that doesn't even come from 40K and, with how unimportant that detail is to the greater setting, could just as easily be retconned back to bolters being favored for logistics rather than raw effectiveness.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/23 14:00:19


 
   
Made in us
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Atlanta, GA

Orks in literally every iteration of film or written excerpt are fodder whos only threat is being large in number. They aren't even presented as being particularly tough - but strong. Str 5 would honestly make MORE sense than T5. It makes 0 sense that bolters have an easier time wounding other Astartes ether.


From the 2nd edition Ork codex:

"They have robust and muscular frames, with strong, long arms that end in clumsy fingers capable of a vice-like grip. Their skulls are thick with heavy protruding brow-ridges shading their savage red eyes. ... Orks are brave and tough, and their bodies have a natural resilience with allows them to survive traumatic injuries and the most primitive surgery. They feel very little pain and can keep fighting even if they lose a limb or sustain a major body wound. Their blood carries a symbiotic algae through their veins, digesting and reconstituting damaged body tissue and even rebuilding major organs."

"Because orks feel very little pain they can endure serious wounds without a flinch. Their bodies will readily accept the most crude transplants and prosthetics and serious battle injuries don't bother them much."

4th edition Ork codex:

"An Ork's skull is extremely thick, able to absorb impacts that would cave in a human head. ...Orkoid physique is so robust that it can withstand tremendous punishment. An Ork feels next to no pain even from the most grievous wounds, enabling him to fight on whilst horrifically injured and even for a short while after he is technically dead. The greenskin regenerative process is so powerful that an Ork who has been cut apart in the crucible of battle can simply be stitched back together again, bewildered but ready to fight once more."


I could go on, but that sounds like some pretty great justification for T5 to me. Frankly it's about time that orks got a little bit of love from GW - they've kind of been the generic "mow them all down" bad guy for far too long. Tougher ork boyz will go a long way, and I'm looking forward to playing some games.
   
Made in ca
Resolute Ultramarine Honor Guard






Vancouver, BC

All T5 orks and all the reduced damage abilities make me think is that Assault Cannons are back on the menu.

 warboss wrote:
Is there a permanent stickied thread for Chaos players to complain every time someone/anyone gets models or rules besides them? If not, there should be.
 
   
Made in us
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 Mr. Grey wrote:
Orks in literally every iteration of film or written excerpt are fodder whos only threat is being large in number. They aren't even presented as being particularly tough - but strong. Str 5 would honestly make MORE sense than T5. It makes 0 sense that bolters have an easier time wounding other Astartes ether.


From the 2nd edition Ork codex:

"They have robust and muscular frames, with strong, long arms that end in clumsy fingers capable of a vice-like grip. Their skulls are thick with heavy protruding brow-ridges shading their savage red eyes. ... Orks are brave and tough, and their bodies have a natural resilience with allows them to survive traumatic injuries and the most primitive surgery. They feel very little pain and can keep fighting even if they lose a limb or sustain a major body wound. Their blood carries a symbiotic algae through their veins, digesting and reconstituting damaged body tissue and even rebuilding major organs."

"Because orks feel very little pain they can endure serious wounds without a flinch. Their bodies will readily accept the most crude transplants and prosthetics and serious battle injuries don't bother them much."

4th edition Ork codex:

"An Ork's skull is extremely thick, able to absorb impacts that would cave in a human head. ...Orkoid physique is so robust that it can withstand tremendous punishment. An Ork feels next to no pain even from the most grievous wounds, enabling him to fight on whilst horrifically injured and even for a short while after he is technically dead. The greenskin regenerative process is so powerful that an Ork who has been cut apart in the crucible of battle can simply be stitched back together again, bewildered but ready to fight once more."


I could go on, but that sounds like some pretty great justification for T5 to me. Frankly it's about time that orks got a little bit of love from GW - they've kind of been the generic "mow them all down" bad guy for far too long. Tougher ork boyz will go a long way, and I'm looking forward to playing some games.

Funny - sounds like feel no paint to me. Considering it literally says they feel practically no pain and can go on fighting after injury. The only thing that really lends it's self to toughness is the part where it says they have a thick skull...Thicker than a humans...It could have said more durable than an Astartes head but it chose a pathetic t3 human.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Crazyterran wrote:
All T5 orks and all the reduced damage abilities make me think is that Assault Cannons are back on the menu.
Str 4 non core vs t5? Makes me think Redemptor dreads...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/23 14:26:08


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
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Made in gb
Hungry Ork Hunta Lying in Wait





Orkz defensive profile being high T, at the cost of virtually no armour save beyond a rare unit (mega nobz) is a nice design distinction to just T4 W2 which would have people complaining "Ohhh Orkz are enroaching on the marines stateline !!!11!!1!"

We've reached a point in lethality that W1 T4 6+ IS NOT durable or tough. T5 base is a great solution to the issue whilst staying true to a degree of the fluff. T5 Ork - he can take a big hit and keep running. T5 plague marine with DR / Gravis Marines - They can take several Ork killing hits and keep marching.

Marine Tac/ Intercessor at T4 W2 and Sv 3+ (EASILY 2+ in cover) is still magnitudes more durable even on a per point value than a Ork boy. And can shoot across the table with good anti infantry firepower. And contribute meaningfully in close combat. Whilst that ork boy has very little output until he charges and that's never guaranteed to happen.

All complaints so far about "Oh this is a bad change" normally seem to involve "MY army will struggle," or "its not fluffy! Orkz aren't tougher than a maaaarrrriiiine"
Mate, Orkz are tough. Toughness in 40k are shown by 3 stats - Toughness, Wounds and Saves. Marines excel in Wounds and Saves for a mainline infantry model. Orkz only excel in Toughness with this upcoming change. I hope Tyranids get decent toughness, medium saves and high wounds to show their own form of army toughness and some cool regeneration type abilities that isnt just a slap on FNP. Custodes will get all 3 and probably reach 70 points a custode guard

The game is reeling from its overlethality issue. Marines got W2, Necrons have their new RP. DE got... Well they kill you before you kill them, thats a kettle of fish. Let other armies get their new tools and open up the profile of units to not be so much 4's across the board so uniformly.
   
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Atlanta, GA

Funny - sounds like feel no paint to me. Considering it literally says they feel practically no pain and can go on fighting after injury. The only thing that really lends it's self to toughness is the part where it says they have a thick skull...Thicker than a humans...It could have said more durable than an Astartes head but it chose a pathetic t3 human.



And a LOT of people have already consistently pointed out to you why Toughness 5 is a better and alternate design choice compared to FNP. Do you even play orks? Because frankly rolling FNP for every single wound for 120 boyz sounds like misery to me, and I like rolling dice.

Like, WE GET IT. You hate the idea of T5 orks sooooo much. Most of the rest of us commenting in this thread and arguing with you(why am I even bothering?) feel that an increased point in toughness is just fine. Maybe instead of crying that the sky is falling, you could wait and see what happens once the codex actually drops, and how that affects ork armies in a variety of games from casual all the way to a tournament setting.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/23 14:29:45


 
   
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 Mr. Grey wrote:
Funny - sounds like feel no paint to me. Considering it literally says they feel practically no pain and can go on fighting after injury. The only thing that really lends it's self to toughness is the part where it says they have a thick skull...Thicker than a humans...It could have said more durable than an Astartes head but it chose a pathetic t3 human.



And a LOT of people have already consistently pointed out to you why Toughness 5 is a better and alternate design choice compared to FNP. Do you even play orks? Because frankly rolling FNP for every single wound for 120 boyz sounds like misery to me, and I like rolling dice.

Like, WE GET IT. You hate the idea of T5 orks sooooo much. Most of the rest of us commenting in this thread and arguing with you(why am I even bothering?) feel that an increased point in toughness is just fine. Maybe instead of crying that the sky is falling, you could wait and see what happens once the codex actually drops, and how that affects ork armies in a variety of games from casual all the way to a tournament setting.

OFC you think it is fine. You want the change.

You do realize the ork boys are going to get FNP through a pain boy anyways - so all this "time saving" argument is utter garbage. It is just another layer of defense added to a unit that is supposed to die in droves getting. Can't even wait for the T6 Nobs and T8 Warboss on bike. 70% WR here we come.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Gir Spirit Bane wrote:
Orkz defensive profile being high T, at the cost of virtually no armour save beyond a rare unit (mega nobz) is a nice design distinction to just T4 W2 which would have people complaining "Ohhh Orkz are enroaching on the marines stateline !!!11!!1!"

We've reached a point in lethality that W1 T4 6+ IS NOT durable or tough. T5 base is a great solution to the issue whilst staying true to a degree of the fluff. T5 Ork - he can take a big hit and keep running. T5 plague marine with DR / Gravis Marines - They can take several Ork killing hits and keep marching.

Marine Tac/ Intercessor at T4 W2 and Sv 3+ (EASILY 2+ in cover) is still magnitudes more durable even on a per point value than a Ork boy. And can shoot across the table with good anti infantry firepower. And contribute meaningfully in close combat. Whilst that ork boy has very little output until he charges and that's never guaranteed to happen.

All complaints so far about "Oh this is a bad change" normally seem to involve "MY army will struggle," or "its not fluffy! Orkz aren't tougher than a maaaarrrriiiine"
Mate, Orkz are tough. Toughness in 40k are shown by 3 stats - Toughness, Wounds and Saves. Marines excel in Wounds and Saves for a mainline infantry model. Orkz only excel in Toughness with this upcoming change. I hope Tyranids get decent toughness, medium saves and high wounds to show their own form of army toughness and some cool regeneration type abilities that isnt just a slap on FNP. Custodes will get all 3 and probably reach 70 points a custode guard

The game is reeling from its overlethality issue. Marines got W2, Necrons have their new RP. DE got... Well they kill you before you kill them, thats a kettle of fish. Let other armies get their new tools and open up the profile of units to not be so much 4's across the board so uniformly.

LOL - funny you mention the 2 worst of the updated armies that routinely lose to 8th edition supplements. 9th edd space marine codex was a massive nerf and Crons while they got a big improvement from 8th are not as you say "part of the problem". Unbuffed orks already outperform both of the armies that you mention here....what do you think that does for your arguement?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/23 14:45:57


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
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I like how Xeno laments that the 9th Ed Marine codex was a 'massive nerf', despite the fact that it buffed Marines to W2, then without any critical thinking or self-awareness immediately switches to whinging about how the new Ork codex will be buffing their winrate further simply because Boyz are getting T5.

I'm sure all those Ork players who are doing well right now are doing so on account of the effectiveness of the Ork Boy profile, and not through tricks like Endless Green Tide and Da Jump, or specific standout units, that all could easily be nerfed by a new codex. Let alone points values.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/23 15:00:50


 
   
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In any case, its all a mote point now. GW has already announced that Orcs are going to be T5 now. They are not going to backtrack on that now.
   
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 catbarf wrote:
I like how Xeno laments that the 9th Ed Marine codex was a 'massive nerf', despite the fact that it buffed Marines to W2, then without any critical thinking or self-awareness immediately switches to whinging about how the new Ork codex will be buffing their winrate further simply because Boyz are getting T5.

I'm sure all those Ork players who are doing well right now are doing so on account of the effectiveness of the Ork Boy profile, and not through tricks like Endless Green Tide and Da Jump, or specific standout units, that all could easily be nerfed by a new codex. Let alone points values.

They are literally spamming ork boys and commandoes to win. Mic drop. Lets buff that unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Eldenfirefly wrote:
In any case, its all a mote point now. GW has already announced that Orcs are going to be T5 now. They are not going to backtrack on that now.

Welp and the setting is broken.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/23 15:03:55


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
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 Xenomancers wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Eldenfirefly wrote:
In any case, its all a mote point now. GW has already announced that Orcs are going to be T5 now. They are not going to backtrack on that now.

Welp and the setting is broken.


Fantastic. Be seeing ya!

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in ca
Charing Cold One Knight





 the_scotsman wrote:
Karol wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
And why exactly is two of the worst units being "big winners" a problem?


Because GW do not know what self moderation is, and this two units being "big winners" ended being one of the stones that ended up with DE being exactly the way they are, including the way they are now post nerfs. Orks were already having a better then marines win rates, why would they need more stuff? Just so the ork players are happy? I guess that could be a argument, if ork players were the majority of all players, which they clearly are not. And all of this is assuming GW did tone stuff down and didn't create a liquifires style problem with some rule for orks. Because if they did the next CA book is in 6 months.
If orks still have Jump and don't cost 10pts, the breaks on unit efficiency is going to be huge. Even some units that are not used right now could be used again, specially on multi wound models.


God, I feel silly asking this because I know you don't, but I'm honestly actually curious: Do we have any data for how post-nerf drukhari are doing? I've literally only seen like 1 largeish event post-nerf where there was 1 Drukhari player in like 5th place.

Found 1 more event post-nerf - Utah Open GT - top 4 Orks, IK, DG, Space Wolves.


From the weekend data which now have all events using the new FAQ Drukhari appeared to sit at 55% winrate. We'll see how the next two weekends will turn out, but so far it seems that the fixes/nerfs to Drukhari have put them into the middle of the pack currently. This is going off weekly threads on r/warhammercompetitive.

Welp and the setting is broken.


For you and you only it seems.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/06/23 15:20:56


-Primary Armies -
Craftworlds | Dark Angels | Death Guard | Sisters of Battle | Chaos Knights | Flesh-Eater Courts | Idoneth Deepkin

- Secondary Armies -
Drukhari | Necrons || Tyranids | Daughters of Khaine | Blades of Khorne | Stormcast Eternals
 
   
Made in us
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Annandale, VA

 Xenomancers wrote:
They are literally spamming ork boys and commandoes to win. Mic drop. Lets buff that unit.


1. You don't know how their points are changing.
2. You don't know how key abilities, namely Endless Green Tide and Da Jump, are changing.
3. You don't know how army-wide abilities like DDD or 'Ere We Go are changing.
4. You don't know how anything else that affects the relevant units is changing.
5. You, frankly, don't know enough about the faction to comment on army composition, unless you've really wised up since those squigbuggy spam predictions.

This isn't a discussion, it's a tantrum, as you completely ignore all the unknowns to instead whinge about how a single change in a vacuum is going to ruin the game.

And at this point I'm absolutely sure that if you end up being proven completely wrong in your predictions once again, it will in no way inform or dissuade your knee-jerk takes in the future.
   
 
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