40k Transphobic?

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**techsoldaten**

Just Tony wrote:
Void__Dragon wrote:
Sim-Life wrote:

I'm surprised that you decided to call.me a bigot over saying "people dying in the street have bigger concerns than their pronouns" but not some things other people have posted in this thread.

Feel free to point them out my bigoted and dismissive friend and I shall ascertain whether the poster is a bigot on a case by case basis.

So is everyone who disagrees with you a bigot?

You've gone through several pages trolling and accusing without actually shutting down anyone, in fact, several have even completely rebutted you despite your dismissals. Might be time to move on.

And before you type it: I'm not your fething friend. Nor is anyone else you've been patronizing in this thread.

Show me the person and I shall show you the crime.

We would all do well to remember the next step is bans from public spaces associated with the hobby for those who disagree with Void Dragon. Along with doxxing and attempts to get you fired.

Because representation is literally a matter of life and death for marginalized people, and bigots with outdated notions about biological sex are the ones responsible.

**CthuluIsSpy**

Olthannon wrote:
androgynous transhuman individual

I'm not sure androgynous is the right descriptor.
Androgynous means possessing both masculine and feminine characteristics.
Marines do not, for the most part, possess feminine characteristics. There may be some outliers (Emperor's Children, perhaps?), but generally speaking you look at a marine and think "that's a guy."
They are, however, eunuchs because apparently the marine creation process renders them sterile and shrivels up his "wargear". Which is darkly amusing and ironic, really.
You have a large macho man, the sort that you'd find in an 80s action flick or Rob Liefield comic, and he has the reproductive capabilities of an old carrot.

**blood reaper**

Great example of a 'terrible thread' imo.

>opening post is a link to a potentially inflammatory article - no context or opinion is given whatsoever to the content of it - it's not even quoted from at all
>title has nothing to do with the content of the article, which is not even about 40k as a game and does not claim 40k as a whole is transphobic, it's about a piece of lore for one of its books
>title is a vague, very difficult to answer question which is guaranteed to start endless arguments

**Deadnight**

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Olthannon wrote:
androgynous transhuman individual

I'm not sure androgynous is the right descriptor.
Androgynous means possessing both masculine and feminine characteristics.
Marines do not, for the most part, possess feminine characteristics. There may be some outliers (Emperor's Children, perhaps?), but generally speaking you look at a marine and think "that's a guy."
They are, however, technically eunuchs because apparently the marine creation process renders them sterile and shrivels up his "wargear". Which is darkly amusing and ironic, really.
You have a large macho man, the sort that you'd find in an 80s action flick or Rob Liefield comic, and he has the reproductive capabilities of an old carrot.

'An old carrot'. Lulz.

That's what happens when they get pumped full of that astartestosterone gunk!

**Huron black heart**

I don't think GW is transphobic, but they have perhaps used some phrases that are now seen as such.
Personally I try to be decent to all around me, and accept them as they are, and hopefully they treat me the same. But that just isn't human nature. We seem to find things to argue and disagree over, sometimes merely for the sake of it.
The whole transrights movement seems to have been hijacked by the media and the vocal minority, on both sides of the argument.

**blood reaper**

Deadnight wrote:
CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Olthannon wrote:
androgynous transhuman individual

I'm not sure androgynous is the right descriptor.
Androgynous means possessing both masculine and feminine characteristics.
Marines do not, for the most part, possess feminine characteristics. There may be some outliers (Emperor's Children, perhaps?), but generally speaking you look at a marine and think "that's a guy."
They are, however, technically eunuchs because apparently the marine creation process renders them sterile and shrivels up his "wargear". Which is darkly amusing and ironic, really.
You have a large macho man, the sort that you'd find in an 80s action flick or Rob Liefield comic, and he has the reproductive capabilities of an old carrot.

'An old carrot'. Lulz.

That's what happens when they get pumped full of that astartestosterone gunk!

40k is the ultimate roider vs natty setting.

**Ordana**

Christ, the amount of crap that comes out of an obvious outrage clickbait article...

**CthuluIsSpy**

blood reaper wrote:
Deadnight wrote:
CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Olthannon wrote:
androgynous transhuman individual

I'm not sure androgynous is the right descriptor.
Androgynous means possessing both masculine and feminine characteristics.
Marines do not, for the most part, possess feminine characteristics. There may be some outliers (Emperor's Children, perhaps?), but generally speaking you look at a marine and think "that's a guy."
They are, however, technically eunuchs because apparently the marine creation process renders them sterile and shrivels up his "wargear". Which is darkly amusing and ironic, really.
You have a large macho man, the sort that you'd find in an 80s action flick or Rob Liefield comic, and he has the reproductive capabilities of an old carrot.

'An old carrot'. Lulz.

That's what happens when they get pumped full of that astartestosterone gunk!

40k is the ultimate roider vs natty setting.

The virgin roid Marine vs the chad natty Sister.

**Dai**

Ordana wrote:
Christ, the amount of crap that comes out of an obvious outrage clickbait article...

Nerd bigots are most insane bigots!

**Olthannon**

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Olthannon wrote:
androgynous transhuman individual

I'm not sure androgynous is the right descriptor.
Androgynous means possessing both masculine and feminine characteristics.
Marines do not, for the most part, possess feminine characteristics. There may be some outliers (Emperor's Children, perhaps?), but generally speaking you look at a marine and think "that's a guy."
They are, however, eunuchs because apparently the marine creation process renders them sterile and shrivels up his "wargear". Which is darkly amusing and ironic, really.
You have a large macho man, the sort that you'd find in an 80s action flick or Rob Liefield comic, and he has the reproductive capabilities of an old carrot.

You are right, I had thought androgynous was synonymous with gender neutral. I guess Space Marines are therefore non-binary. Again though, that is the point I'm trying to make. It shouldn't matter that they were male to begin with, that seems a daft thing to hang up on in all of the 40k lore. It is in fact very much in keeping with the satirical aspect of 40k. It doesn't matter what you were, you are transformed into a genetically enhanced killing machine to combat the forces of the Imperium. It matters not from whence your genitalia hung, so long as the blood flows. Or something.

It's a core concept of sci fi to have your gender and identity swallowed up by some dystopian way of existence in the future and you are allowed no individuality. It doesn't matter whether the aspirant was male or female to begin with, they become transhuman. As I said in an earlier post in this thread, it would actually be a good way for 40k writers to discuss ideas about transgender and identity.

I believe the main reason behind this open letter to GW was that rather than doing that, they "doubled down" so to speak on making it male only, when there isn't a need to do that. The fact that the book came out during Pride Month, is an added kick in the ascribed genitalia of whatever you fancy.

**TheBestBucketHead**

Blindmage, trans women are women. A person is no less a gender than the person born that way. I know many trans people, and quite a few are in my friend group. Of the group I play wargames with, a group of about 4 people, 1 is trans. I know no one who plays 40k. By that measure, I know no trans women who play 40k. I do however know a trans woman who plays Infinity, who chooses models because they're women, and loves the 40k background. She argues extensively, more than I ever would, that Space Marines need to remain men. I'm of the opinion that Space Marines be sexless, and look like their Primarch generally, regardless of their original sex. By the way people are talking here, I wouldn't be transphobic, but my trans girlfriend would be. She got me into 40k, and we played Kill Team back before it became what it is now. Me and her painted Admech models together when she was off duty for the Navy. She's also from the Philippines, and has to deal with homophobic parents. Yet she laughed when I told her about this issue. Just because you're dealing with bigots and horrible people does not make 40k transphobic, it does not make the "community", whatever that is, transphobic. I have a privilege of being somewhat big and strong, so the homophobic people I know never bothered me. I have a caring family and kind friends. The game store I go to has a kind owner and a cool guy who works there on saturdays. Never once did any of my friends get harassed. The 40k community is not transphoic. Your local community is. 40k and that line are not transphobic. The people who harass trans people with similar terminology are.

I know no trans people who play 40k, because the rule set is bad and my girlfriend cares much more about it being lore accurate than whether or not there are Trans Marines or Femarines. The local community never shunned us. The store never refused us.

There are many more factors to everything than anyone is giving credit to. The line is stupid, and I'd rather see it removed, but the fact that people argue for it to stay, and argue that it isn't transphobic, doesn't make them hate trans people.

Space Marines are Male to Alpha Male trans.

Once you're that fethed up, as a Space Marine, gender and sex don't matter. They're all Battle Brothers, no matter where they started. Some are just prettier than others, and the Blood Angels take that cake.

**Sim-Life**

Dai wrote:
Ordana wrote:
Christ, the amount of crap that comes out of an obvious outrage clickbait article...

Nerd bigots are most insane bigots!

I think you're assigning malice to indifference.

**Sgt_Smudge**

Blndmage wrote:If I'm coming off hostile it's because I've sat back and seen enough sexist, homophobic, racist, transphobic gak on these boards and this thread is explicitly where my experience with the community, and by this I mean here on dakka, is relevant.

I haven't seen any other trans folks willing to out themselves for this, but I am. This could literally mean 4can folks will dox me. No joking. Being trans on the internet is an ever changing field of landmines that are people's bigotry.

If another trans person wants to give their thoughts and discuss things that's great. But you might want to stop and consider why I seem to be the only trans woman here. The community is scary. It's the reason none of my queer friends will touch the hobby.

Enby, which, I suppose makes me trans (or at the very least, not cis).

There's a reason I haven't commented, and why I've stopped posting on dakka so much - all the bolded gak you mention, and the seeming lack of effort to clean it up and monitor basic decency and tolerance on this forum.

As a trans person, I also find the aforementioned "biological male" mention grim, and I'm one of the signatures on the letter highlighting it's issues. Do I think GW is transphobic? No. I think they used a term which has negative connotations due to it's use as a transphobic dogwhistle. As a global company and one that has made a statement saying they oppose bigotry, they need to do better by including specific editors whose job it is to recognise and highlight these types of phrases, and remove them, for the sake of ensuring that GW stays true to their comments of "40k is for everyone". It's no good saying that when the material GW prints is tacitly used to exclude others.

Does 40k have a transphobe problem? Yes. Is everyone who plays 40k a transphobe? No. Is there a significantly large/vocal cohort of transphobic folks? Yes, and I think that people are either ignorant (wilfully or unwittingly) or naive if they don't believe there is. Moreover, the response to actual evidence of transphobia is very often swept under the rug as "isolated incidents", but that still ignores the fact that people are being transphobic asshats.

You want to show you're not a transphobe and not contribute to the problem? Call it out, condemn it, and support the voices of trans folks within the hobby - silence in the face of bigotry is essentially as a good as compliance.

I think this may be my only post in this thread, considering some of the responses here.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Olthannon wrote:
You are right, I had thought androgynous was synonymous with gender neutral. I guess Space Marines are therefore non-binary. Again though, that is the point I'm trying to make. It shouldn't matter that they were male to begin with, that seems a daft thing to hang up on in all of the 40k lore. It is in fact very much in keeping with the satirical aspect of 40k. It doesn't matter what you were, you are transformed into a genetically enhanced killing machine to combat the forces of the Imperium. It matters not from whence your genitalia hung, so long as the blood flows. Or something.

Not quite non-binary. Space Marines use male pronouns and masculine terminology, as well as following gender "rules" that place them as typically masculine - they are still "male", at least in terms of their gender identity.

I think the term you're looking for is agender, but they're not even that at present. Realistically, Space Marines *should* be asexual agender transhumans, but they're not portrayed as such.

It's a core concept of sci fi to have your gender and identity swallowed up by some dystopian way of existence in the future and you are allowed no individuality. It doesn't matter whether the aspirant was male or female to begin with, they become transhuman. As I said in an earlier post in this thread, it would actually be a good way for 40k writers to discuss ideas about transgender and identity.

I believe the main reason behind this open letter to GW was that rather than doing that, they "doubled down" so to speak on making it male only, when there isn't a need to do that. The fact that the book came out during Pride Month, is an added kick in the ascribed genitalia of whatever you fancy.

Entirely agreed on the rest of this! Just figured I'd clear up the distinction between non-binary and agender identities! I think it's especially painful that it happens both in Pride Month, and also after GW make their statement about "40k being for everyone".

**blood reaper**

I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.

**Sgt_Smudge**

blood reaper wrote:
I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.

I think it's cute

**Sim-Life**

blood reaper wrote:
I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.

What about "folx"?

**TheBestBucketHead**

I say y'all a lot, but I refuse to say "folks" unless it is specifically something like "What are y'all folks doin' round here?"

**Karol**

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Olthannon wrote:
androgynous transhuman individual

I'm not sure androgynous is the right descriptor.
Androgynous means possessing both masculine and feminine characteristics.
Marines do not, for the most part, possess feminine characteristics. There may be some outliers (Emperor's Children, perhaps?), but generally speaking you look at a marine and think "that's a guy."
They are, however, eunuchs because apparently the marine creation process renders them sterile and shrivels up his "wargear". Which is darkly amusing and ironic, really.
You have a large macho man, the sort that you'd find in an 80s action flick or Rob Liefield comic, and he has the reproductive capabilities of an old carrot.

If we assume that at least the drug part of making a marine is a super form a testosteron treatment, and marine candidates start getting on the juice before they start puberty. Then sterility is a given. When you are at school teachers and trainers constantly warn everyone about using "enhancers" because it can have that effect in its more extrem forms. It has to work somehow different for some marines, because Lukas the Trickster sired children so there is that part of the lore to deal with. But all in all if you go through a hormon theraphy pre puberty, then it is not the shriveling thing that makes marine different from regular humans. They litteraly have rewired brains, they feel pleasure from being in battle, even the most friendly and peaceful ones like the salamanders. For something like SW or BA succesor they can enter litteral berzerkergang.

**blood reaper**

Sim-Life wrote:
blood reaper wrote:
I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.

What about "folx"?

I would rather be killed by sarin gas or ebola that use 'folx', 'folks', or any phrase inserting X's anywhere - literally the byproduct of cloistered academics.

**Amishprn86**

Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Blndmage wrote:If I'm coming off hostile it's because I've sat back and seen enough sexist, homophobic, racist, transphobic gak on these boards and this thread is explicitly where my experience with the community, and by this I mean here on dakka, is relevant.

I haven't seen any other trans folks willing to out themselves for this, but I am. This could literally mean 4can folks will dox me. No joking. Being trans on the internet is an ever changing field of landmines that are people's bigotry.

If another trans person wants to give their thoughts and discuss things that's great. But you might want to stop and consider why I seem to be the only trans woman here. The community is scary. It's the reason none of my queer friends will touch the hobby.
Enby, which, I suppose makes me trans (or at the very least, not cis).

There's a reason I haven't commented, and why I've stopped posting on dakka so much - all the bolded gak you mention, and the seeming lack of effort to clean it up and monitor basic decency and tolerance on this forum.

As a trans person, I also find the aforementioned "biological male" mention grim, and I'm one of the signatures on the letter highlighting it's issues. Do I think GW is transphobic? No. I think they used a term which has negative connotations due to it's use as a transphobic dogwhistle. As a global company and one that has made a statement saying they oppose bigotry, they need to do better by including specific editors whose job it is to recognise and highlight these types of phrases, and remove them, for the sake of ensuring that GW stays true to their comments of "40k is for everyone". It's no good saying that when the material GW prints is tacitly used to exclude others.

Does 40k have a transphobe problem? Yes. Is everyone who plays 40k a transphobe? No. Is there a significantly large/vocal cohort of transphobic folks? Yes, and I think that people are either ignorant (wilfully or unwittingly) or naive if they don't believe there is. Moreover, the response to actual evidence of transphobia is very often swept under the rug as "isolated incidents", but that still ignores the fact that people are being transphobic asshats.

You want to show you're not a transphobe and not contribute to the problem? Call it out, condemn it, and support the voices of trans folks within the hobby - silence in the face of bigotry is essentially as a good as compliance.

I think this may be my only post in this thread, considering some of the responses here.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Olthannon wrote:
You are right, I had thought androgynous was synonymous with gender neutral. I guess Space Marines are therefore non-binary. Again though, that is the point I'm trying to make. It shouldn't matter that they were male to begin with, that seems a daft thing to hang up on in all of the 40k lore. It is in fact very much in keeping with the satirical aspect of 40k. It doesn't matter what you were, you are transformed into a genetically enhanced killing machine to combat the forces of the Imperium. It matters not from whence your genitalia hung, so long as the blood flows. Or something.
Not quite non-binary. Space Marines use male pronouns and masculine terminology, as well as following gender "rules" that place them as typically masculine - they are still "male", at least in terms of their gender identity.

I think the term you're looking for is agender, but they're not even that at present. Realistically, Space Marines *should* be asexual agender transhumans, but they're not portrayed as such.

It's a core concept of sci fi to have your gender and identity swallowed up by some dystopian way of existence in the future and you are allowed no individuality. It doesn't matter whether the aspirant was male or female to begin with, they become transhuman. As I said in an earlier post in this thread, it would actually be a good way for 40k writers to discuss ideas about transgender and identity.

I believe the main reason behind this open letter to GW was that rather than doing that, they "doubled down" so to speak on making it male only, when there isn't a need to do that. The fact that the book came out during Pride Month, is an added kick in the ascribed genitalia of whatever you fancy.
Entirely agreed on the rest of this! Just figured I'd clear up the distinction between non-binary and agender identities! I think it's especially painful that it happens both in Pride Month, and also after GW make their statement about "40k being for everyone".

To start with I have thought about transitioning many times (and still do to this day), so there is no hate from me. But I think I am not the normal then bc of my background. I am a competitive martial artist and I run martial arts schools. I have done BJJ, Kenpo, Kickboxing, Boxing, TDK, Akido, and many more. I have trained literally thousands of students with a retention rate of 70% over 2yrs (Meaning my students stayed students for 2+ yrs, about 40% for 4+yrs and I have trained some students for a decade). I used to travel to teach and compete as well. I took as many classes (no college degree though) as I could for personal fitness and nutrition.

From my years of experience for males and females in a literal combat environment, i do not agree at all that females and males are equal biology and sex is not fluid like sex is and knowing how testosterone plays a role for muscles and bone density as well as some other things. If you had to pick a female or a male to be trained for combat and to be given more HGHs, Testosterone, and other crazy implants you would pick a make over female. This is no transphobic this is just biology.

I guess I dont see this as a problem bc I got to see men and women fight for 15yrs and while I think gender is fluid being trans, sex is not.

**Karol**

As someone with no education in nutrition or biology, but a student at a wrestling school I will say it like this. In senior year the boys class preps with the euro champion female team, the regular one, not the juniors and the results are very close to 50/50 win rates. At give a perspective of how "bad" the female rankers are in 2021 they brought back 9 medals from the Euros, 4 silver and 5 bronze. So it is not like those female wrestlers are unskilled or unfit. They are world level skilled and fit. Often more skilled then us, we are just stronger.

**Sgt_Smudge**

Amishprn86 wrote:
From my years of experience for males and females in a literal combat environment, i do not agree at all that females and males are equal biology and gender is not fluid like sex is and knowing how testosterone plays a role for muscles and bone density as well as some other things. If you had to pick a female or a male to be trained for combat and to be given more HGHs, Testosterone, and other crazy implants you would pick a make over female. This is no transphobic this is just biology.

I guess I dont see this as a problem bc I got to see men and women fight for 15yrs and while I think sex is fluid being trans, gender is not.

Not to sound patronising, but I think you may have mixed up sex and gender there - gender is the social construct, the performance and "rules" by which a person lives their life and social identity, sex is the biological element. Gender is/can be fluid as it is entirely socially constructed, sex is the biological aspect (which can still be non-binary and isn't as clear cut as male/female).

Just to clarify your stance, because I think you may have mixed up gender and sex there!

**Souleater**

I do appreciate the mods keeping this topic open for discussion. And the folks have have taken the time to expand on the problem, rather than shouting down anyone that questions them.

**Amishprn86**

Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Amishprn86 wrote:
From my years of experience for males and females in a literal combat environment, i do not agree at all that females and males are equal biology and gender is not fluid like sex is and knowing how testosterone plays a role for muscles and bone density as well as some other things. If you had to pick a female or a male to be trained for combat and to be given more HGHs, Testosterone, and other crazy implants you would pick a make over female. This is no transphobic this is just biology.

I guess I dont see this as a problem bc I got to see men and women fight for 15yrs and while I think sex is fluid being trans, gender is not.
Not to sound patronising, but I think you may have mixed up sex and gender there - gender is the social construct, the performance and "rules" by which a person lives their life and social identity, sex is the biological element. Gender is/can be fluid as it is entirely socially constructed, sex is the biological aspect (which can still be non-binary and isn't as clear cut as male/female).

Just to clarify your stance, because I think you may have mixed up gender and sex there!

I did in my typing I already corrected it. Just a fast typing mistake. (see signature lol)

**Sgt_Smudge**

Amishprn86 wrote:
Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Just to clarify your stance, because I think you may have mixed up gender and sex there!

I did in my typing I already corrected it. Just a fast typing mistake. (see signature lol)

Ah, not a problem! I think I must have seen it before your edits!

**Karol**

Now, we may not have a lot of biolgy at school here, but from what I remember, humans aren't fungi and we don't have more then 2 sexs.

**Amishprn86**

Karol wrote:
Now, we may not have a lot of biolgy at school here, but from what I remember, humans aren't fungi and we don't have more then 2 sexs.

We have more than 2 sex chromosome combination, you are correct we are not orks.

**Vatsetis**

I think that people are right in pointing out that the language used arround the fictional pseudo science involve in producing the mass murderers pseudo fascist Space Marines of the distant future SHOULD indeed be in line with current Trans and Queer movements. (And if you see any contradiction you are indeed a male supremacist).

(disclaimer: havent read yet the previous 10 pages of thread, comment only on goonhammer article).

**Grimskul**

Geez, I go to bed for the night and there's already been 5 extra pages, a good chunk of which is just ad hominems thrown around by the usual suspects because they had to resort to it rather than actually engaging in proper discourse.

You're a bigot, you're a bigot. Everyone gets to be called a bigot!

**Catulle**

Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Blndmage wrote:If I'm coming off hostile it's because I've sat back and seen enough sexist, homophobic, racist, transphobic gak on these boards and this thread is explicitly where my experience with the community, and by this I mean here on dakka, is relevant.

I haven't seen any other trans folks willing to out themselves for this, but I am. This could literally mean 4can folks will dox me. No joking. Being trans on the internet is an ever changing field of landmines that are people's bigotry.

If another trans person wants to give their thoughts and discuss things that's great. But you might want to stop and consider why I seem to be the only trans woman here. The community is scary. It's the reason none of my queer friends will touch the hobby.
Enby, which, I suppose makes me trans (or at the very least, not cis).

There's a reason I haven't commented, and why I've stopped posting on dakka so much - all the bolded gak you mention, and the seeming lack of effort to clean it up and monitor basic decency and tolerance on this forum.

As a trans person, I also find the aforementioned "biological male" mention grim, and I'm one of the signatures on the letter highlighting it's issues. Do I think GW is transphobic? No. I think they used a term which has negative connotations due to it's use as a transphobic dogwhistle. As a global company and one that has made a statement saying they oppose bigotry, they need to do better by including specific editors whose job it is to recognise and highlight these types of phrases, and remove them, for the sake of ensuring that GW stays true to their comments of "40k is for everyone". It's no good saying that when the material GW prints is tacitly used to exclude others.

Does 40k have a transphobe problem? Yes. Is everyone who plays 40k a transphobe? No. Is there a significantly large/vocal cohort of transphobic folks? Yes, and I think that people are either ignorant (wilfully or unwittingly) or naive if they don't believe there is. Moreover, the response to actual evidence of transphobia is very often swept under the rug as "isolated incidents", but that still ignores the fact that people are being transphobic asshats.

You want to show you're not a transphobe and not contribute to the problem? Call it out, condemn it, and support the voices of trans folks within the hobby - silence in the face of bigotry is essentially as a good as compliance.

Yep.

"We used to have more trans posters" indeed.