Votann Nerfed Prematurely

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**TangoTwoBravo**

Its pretty clear that Tzeench Demons are OP, and that is due to Flamers. They need a datasheet change and not just points. Good news is that a surgical strike might suffice as opposed to a nuke from orbit. Although a nuke from orbit would be nice. **** 'em.

As for Votann, its also clear that the Devs are not sure just what to do with them now that that they have woken up from their bender. Stepping outside the rules is exciting and all, but it warps the game. Normally what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas, but now we have this Codex in the family and it turns out we can't just Squat it.

At least they're not Eldar.

**Bosskelot**

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
At least they're not Eldar.

What? A 48% winrate faction?

**TangoTwoBravo**

Bosskelot wrote:
TangoTwoBravo wrote:
At least they're not Eldar.

What? A 48% winrate faction?

Sorry - failed attempt at being witty. At least our latest OP Xenos faction is not Eldar.

**EviscerationPlague**

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
Bosskelot wrote:
TangoTwoBravo wrote:
At least they're not Eldar.

What? A 48% winrate faction?

Sorry - failed attempt at being witty. At least our latest OP Xenos faction is not Eldar.

Very true. Eldar have historically been overpowered. This is the worst they've been since 5th, where they were JUST upper mid tier.

**Daedalus81**

EightFoldPath wrote:
Remember how I said not to trust GW's stats (and then used them like a filthy hypocrite). I would use the meta mondays more https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive/comments/zajchm/meta_monday_12222_friday_edition/

Especially as they track win rates, 6 week win rates, weekly top 5% placings and 6 week tournament wins.

Flamers are way too good. They are also really strong (almost perfectly designed) to be used in a planet bowling ball game between two casual players who want to spend a 40k game rolling dice shooting at each other.

But, you can only take a maximum of 18. Currently 18 x 25 = 450. In January it will probably be 18 x 35 = 630. So at best you are playing 180 points up currently.

Compare to on release Harlequins who depending on where you get your data from are still the 4th best (GW's article) or 1st best (reddit 6 week win rate) faction.

Voidweavers were 90 points each, nerfed to 130.
Starweavers were 80 points, nerfed to 95 each.
Death Jester 55 to 70.

So, 9 Voidweavers, 2 Starweavers and 2 Death Jesters was playing up by 420 points.

They've also nerfed Luck Dice (3+2 down to 2), Light (both parts of the chapter tactic reduced), Dark (one half of the chapter tactic nuked from high orbit), a warlord trait and a points buy upgrade.

Compare to on release Votann.

Hekaton nerfed from 230 to 300.
Beserkers nerfed from 22 to 30.

Playing on release with 3 Hekaton and 30 Beserkers you were playing up by 450 points. And nearly every other unit went up too.

They also nerfed release Judgement Tokens.

For the Daemons book they will nerf Flamers, but are probably going to want to buff most of Nurgle and I think they should buff the Warp Storm Table (from 8 to 10 or 12 dice) to make mono Daemons worth it over Daemons mixed with other Chaos.

And when they do nerf Flamers, they may still need to nerf Harlequins and Votann at the same time (and Tyranids). That is how bonkers their release versions were, the nerfed version are still too good.

I played against Kairos, LoC, 3 blocks of flamers with support as mono-TS. It was an interesting, but brutal game. Tzeentch is stupid soft in melee and fortunately I had the 'no overwatch prayer' on my IM. My biggest problem was that my shooting was almost totally useless.

It took me by turn 3 to realize that there was literally no point in attempting to shoot the super chickens. He was pushing enough warp storm points that he used Dark Invigoration multiple times and made it all the more pointless.

Tzeentch lacks any way to fallback and shoot some melee is hugely consequential for them. Turning off overwatch also probably saved me a bit.

I still lost, but it was 69 to 78.

You need a chariot to boost them and the chariots don't have character protection. The Fateskimmer gets them RR1s to wound, but with both of those units you're pushing 260 points that is mostly dedicated to buffing one unit.

Flamers seem like one of those units that ride the edge. You can easily tip them too far.

**VladimirHerzog**

Daedalus81 wrote:

I played against Kairos, LoC, 3 blocks of flamers with support as mono-TS.

huh? Thats like 1000pts of demons, how were they still "mono TS"?

**EviscerationPlague**

VladimirHerzog wrote:
Daedalus81 wrote:

I played against Kairos, LoC, 3 blocks of flamers with support as mono-TS.

huh? Thats like 1000pts of demons, how were they still "mono TS"?

People can play smaller games ya know, though it's not usual.

**VladimirHerzog**

EviscerationPlague wrote:
VladimirHerzog wrote:
Daedalus81 wrote:

I played against Kairos, LoC, 3 blocks of flamers with support as mono-TS.

huh? Thats like 1000pts of demons, how were they still "mono TS"?

People can play smaller games ya know, though it's not usual.

No, Kairos,LoC and flamers arent from Thousand Sons. thats why i'm confused. And saying its "mono" TS implied that they kept their bonuses, meaning their thousand sons army would need to hit about 90PL with 1000 pts

**JNAProductions**

VladimirHerzog wrote:
EviscerationPlague wrote:
VladimirHerzog wrote:
Daedalus81 wrote:

I played against Kairos, LoC, 3 blocks of flamers with support as mono-TS.

huh? Thats like 1000pts of demons, how were they still "mono TS"?

People can play smaller games ya know, though it's not usual.

No, Kairos,LoC and flamers arent from Thousand Sons. thats why i'm confused. And saying its "mono" TS implied that they kept their bonuses, meaning their thousand sons army would need to hit about 90PL with 1000 pts

I think it was TSons vs. Tzeentch Daemons. Least as I read it.

**Mariongodspeed**

I was about to say the same thing.

**Daedalus81**

Sorry - I should have worded that more carefully.

I was playing mono Thousand Sons against Tzeentch. He had the chickens, flamers, chariots, skimmers, horrors, etc.

**Tyran**

Based on my limited experience against Tzeenchian Daemons, they are also quite vulnerable to mortal wounds.

But yeah shooting at them is borderline worthless.

**EviscerationPlague**

JNAProductions wrote:
VladimirHerzog wrote:
EviscerationPlague wrote:
VladimirHerzog wrote:
Daedalus81 wrote:

I played against Kairos, LoC, 3 blocks of flamers with support as mono-TS.

huh? Thats like 1000pts of demons, how were they still "mono TS"?

People can play smaller games ya know, though it's not usual.

No, Kairos,LoC and flamers arent from Thousand Sons. thats why i'm confused. And saying its "mono" TS implied that they kept their bonuses, meaning their thousand sons army would need to hit about 90PL with 1000 pts
I think it was TSons vs. Tzeentch Daemons. Least as I read it.

I read TS as shorthand for Tzeentch to be honest.

Classic misunderstandings LOL

**VladimirHerzog**

Daedalus81 wrote:
Sorry - I should have worded that more carefully.

I was playing mono Thousand Sons against Tzeentch. He had the chickens, flamers, chariots, skimmers, horrors, etc.

oh im dumb lol, for some reason my mind thought IM = Ultramarines. thats where the confusion came from

**tneva82**

Daedalus81 wrote:

You need a chariot to boost them and the chariots don't have character protection. The Fateskimmer gets them RR1s to wound, but with both of those units you're pushing 260 points that is mostly dedicated to buffing one unit.

Flamers seem like one of those units that ride the edge. You can easily tip them too far.

Apart from S5 to S6 being fairly minor buff so you don't really NEED that charriot(S5 and +1 to wound is more than enough in general) there's also option to have the exalted flamer provide same buff for cheaper and with character protection. Charriot isn't that required. More points, no character protection and...umm...Screamer bites? Well okay 4" movement too but so far have never ran into problem with exalted flamers speed. Especially as so far he's been there there mostly firing 3 super lascannon shots since S6 been no relevance. I wound either on 3+ or 5+ anyway.

**ccs**

Tyran wrote:
Based on my limited experience against Tzeenchian Daemons, they are also quite vulnerable to mortal wounds.

But yeah shooting at them is borderline worthless.

Well they won't die/lose wounds if you don't make them roll those saves.
And the more often they have to do that.....

**VladimirHerzog**

ccs wrote:
Tyran wrote:
Based on my limited experience against Tzeenchian Daemons, they are also quite vulnerable to mortal wounds.

But yeah shooting at them is borderline worthless.

Well they won't die/lose wounds if you don't make them roll those saves.
And the more often they have to do that.....

litterally just shoot boltguns at them

**Karol**

VladimirHerzog wrote:

litterally just shoot boltguns at them

There is too many of them being hyper efficient in your face on the turn the chaos player wants even for SoB. And marine players just don't have enough bolters to even down a single unit of flamers, not to mention 3 normaly run.

**VladimirHerzog**

Karol wrote:
VladimirHerzog wrote:

litterally just shoot boltguns at them

There is too many of them being hyper efficient in your face on the turn the chaos player wants even for SoB. And marine players just don't have enough bolters to even down a single unit of flamers, not to mention 3 normaly run.

still, boltguns (or high RoF guns) are the best thing to shoot at them.

**tneva82**

VladimirHerzog wrote:
ccs wrote:
Tyran wrote:
Based on my limited experience against Tzeenchian Daemons, they are also quite vulnerable to mortal wounds.

But yeah shooting at them is borderline worthless.

Well they won't die/lose wounds if you don't make them roll those saves.
And the more often they have to do that.....

litterally just shoot boltguns at them

27 bolter shots to kill 1. Rather ineffective.

Full squad of intercessors at rapid fire won't kill one.

And 12 melta hits(hits, not shot) needed to get 1 roll for damage vs big bird. Assuming no cp reroll. In practice i have had over 20 shoot at one for 0 damage.

Yea bolters might be best but still as said worthless. You try to outshoot them you lose. Period.

**VladimirHerzog**

tneva82 wrote:
VladimirHerzog wrote:
ccs wrote:
Tyran wrote:
Based on my limited experience against Tzeenchian Daemons, they are also quite vulnerable to mortal wounds.

But yeah shooting at them is borderline worthless.

Well they won't die/lose wounds if you don't make them roll those saves.
And the more often they have to do that.....

litterally just shoot boltguns at them

27 bolter shots to kill 1. Rather ineffective.

Full squad of intercessors at rapid fire won't kill one.

And 12 melta hits(hits, not shot) needed to get 1 roll for damage vs big bird. Assuming no cp reroll. In practice i have had over 20 shoot at one for 0 damage.

Yea bolters might be best but still as said worthless. You try to outshoot them you lose. Period.

between shooting your bolters at the LoC or CSM , you might as well shoot them at flamers.

**ccs**

tneva82 wrote:
VladimirHerzog wrote:
ccs wrote:
Tyran wrote:
Based on my limited experience against Tzeenchian Daemons, they are also quite vulnerable to mortal wounds.

But yeah shooting at them is borderline worthless.

Well they won't die/lose wounds if you don't make them roll those saves.
And the more often they have to do that.....

litterally just shoot boltguns at them

27 bolter shots to kill 1. Rather ineffective.

Full squad of intercessors at rapid fire won't kill one.

And 12 melta hits(hits, not shot) needed to get 1 roll for damage vs big bird. Assuming no cp reroll. In practice i have had over 20 shoot at one for 0 damage.

Yea bolters might be best but still as said worthless. You try to outshoot them you lose. Period.

What world do you live in where your opponent never fails saves?
And it's not outshoot them. It's ALSO shoot them.

**vict0988**

Killing 150 pts with 1500+ pts isn't really worth noting. What I want to know is what happened to no 3++? Now Daemons have a 3++ that cannot be negated by things that negate invulns, but Wraiths weren't fun to play against when they had a 3++?

**VladimirHerzog**

vict0988 wrote:
Killing 150 pts with 1500+ pts isn't really worth noting. What I want to know is what happened to no 3++? Now Daemons have a 3++ that cannot be negated by things that negate invulns, but Wraiths weren't fun to play against when they had a 3++?

the 3++ is fine, the problem is that theyre flamers.

tzeentch have a clear weakness with melee, but flamers bypass that by making getting into melee pretty much impossible (unless you charge from outside LoS or have some rule that ignores overwatch or the tzeentch player is out of CP)

A demonic 3++ is worse than space marines in cover against most weapons in the game.

**tneva82**

ccs wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
VladimirHerzog wrote:
ccs wrote:
Tyran wrote:
Based on my limited experience against Tzeenchian Daemons, they are also quite vulnerable to mortal wounds.

But yeah shooting at them is borderline worthless.

Well they won't die/lose wounds if you don't make them roll those saves.
And the more often they have to do that.....

litterally just shoot boltguns at them

27 bolter shots to kill 1. Rather ineffective.

Full squad of intercessors at rapid fire won't kill one.

And 12 melta hits(hits, not shot) needed to get 1 roll for damage vs big bird. Assuming no cp reroll. In practice i have had over 20 shoot at one for 0 damage.

Yea bolters might be best but still as said worthless. You try to outshoot them you lose. Period.

What world do you live in where your opponent never fails saves?
And it's not outshoot them. It's ALSO shoot them.

I didn't expect them to not fail. I expect them to fail 1/3. That's why i said 27 shots needed rather than infinite. Math not your strong suit if you think 27 shots gets one without failing save.

(hint. If opponent never fails you never kill one. Thus 27, 1000, 100000000, irrelevant)

And as for big bird. -1 to hit, -1 to wound, 3+ save, cp reroll and one time damage goes to 0. You don't need to pass every save with that

1/9 chance to fail one and then it's 0 damage and then need to fail again with only 1/4 melta shots even forcing save.

Only shoot if nothing elsb you can do. Move out of los/run to get charge range next turn all better optlons