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And some of us have to weigh up "costing extra but 100% getting what I ordered" vs "getting a 20% discount but also having to track down random stock from multiple different stores including paying shipping from multiple different locations with no guarantee that you'll ever find what you need".

All of which is to say: There's value in convenience.

 TalonZahn wrote:

I have no local situation anymore, lol

However, I would base it off a few things;

Vehicles aren't new, they have been around forever in metal and are still widely available from new to used.

BT has a secondhand market that rivals GW secondhand and it's more centralized.

Battletech is FAR more friendly to proxies and 3d printing.

The amount of new fans (since the last KS) is probably outnumbered 2 to 1 by long time players. Sure, I pulled that out my ass, but who do you think carried the last KS? Long time fans/players.

I'm a psycho like HBMC and have triple digit numbers of BT vehicles.

Ahhhh, gotcha, it is based on your personal situation. That makes a lot of sense now.
Yeah, I've got a 3d printers and currently I have 1 plastic mech for every 3 resin mechs in my collection and will look to boost my vehicles with printed versions as well but I have absolutely no desire to go through the second hand markets and the proxying isnt really relevant beyond it is cool that they are happy enough to have card standees being used.

I have my answer so thanks for taking the time to respond.

Right, so the next two stretch goals certainly are something you could consider a "stretch".

Of credulity!

A $4m and $5m goal, for an extra salvage/force pack, plus some other tat.

I said my bit in the comments. Hopefully they'll listen if there's enough of this. #Justice4Kodiak worked, so maybe this will as well.

I couldn't do it. Canceled my pledge. When I read the FAQ question that said "Catalyst tries hard not to undercut retailers. So if you are asking yourself why is the value of the ForcePacks basically MSRP, if you don't care about the swag, that is by design. If you wish to wait and purchase them from your local game store, awesome. We love you supporting your local store," it was all over for me. Don't need to tell me twice you don't care if I pledge.

The 4 and 5m goals seem a Bit anaemic for such a big funding jump.

I have two sides in my head just now. The generous side is thinking that all their senior staff will be busy with the launch parties and adepticon, and it is entirely plausible that they thought they would have a few days to finalise another set of post-2m goals.

The cynical side of me is thinking they are just drip feeding tiny slivers to see very carefully at what point the player base becomes mostly mollified.

Time will tell in a few days when everyone has had time to absorb the current situation and the honeymoon period has worn off.

I said my bit in the comments. Hopefully they'll listen if there's enough of this. #Justice4Kodiak worked, so maybe this will as well.

Wasn't #Justice4Kodiak what got my beloved Berserker cut from the first KS? Lame ass clan crap.

I couldn't do it. Canceled my pledge. When I read the FAQ question that said "Catalyst tries hard not to undercut retailers. So if you are asking yourself why is the value of the ForcePacks basically MSRP, if you don't care about the swag, that is by design. If you wish to wait and purchase them from your local game store, awesome. We love you supporting your local store," it was all over for me. Don't need to tell me twice you don't care if I pledge.

I reduced mine to $1 so I could post. They are making money hand over fist. I don't see them going back on that.

Justyn wrote:
Wasn't #Justice4Kodiak what got my beloved Berserker cut from the first KS? Lame ass clan crap.

They cut a bunch of Clan stuff as well, not just the 'Zerker. #Justice4Kodiak managed to get those missing 'Mechs back.

The 'Zerker did not get invited to the party, sadly.

Justyn wrote:
I reduced mine to $1 so I could post. They are making money hand over fist. I don't see them going back on that.

I have to do what I did last time and make my comparison Excel sheet comparing the two possible tiers (the $500 one and whatever the lower one is). I'm getting one of all the force packs (plus an extra one for a friend as the Black Python/Viper is one of his fav 'Mechs), but I'm going to do so in the way that costs me the least amount for the most amount, and "amount" doesn't include useless swag gak (no seriously: What the feth is a 'challenge coin' anyway?).

I'd be less annoyed if T-Shirts were a part of this. I wanted to get Davion and ComStar shirts, and a Wobbie shirt for a friend.


[EDIT]: The (entirely predictable) backlash to the backlash has started. Sometimes I'm not sure people understand what the word "entitled" really means...

They said that t-shirts were a headache on the last KS, and that was the reason they wouldn't be included in this one. so don't hold your breath.

I also hoped that plushies would be an add on, but my wish was squashed.

M.

Edit: Also supporting retailers seems like a joke to me. AFAIK there are no retailers in or near Osaka (maybe Tokyo????) and last time I went to Spain shops were permanently out of boxes due to restocks not happening.

M.

I understand their reasoning, but their solutions to the problems they've discussed just create other problems.

"Having T-Shirts was a headache in the last process, so now they're on our website. Also, feth everywhere that isn't America, I guess! Anyway, back to 'protecting retailers'..."

Anyone have a picture of the 28mm Marauder next to anything so I can get a feel for its size? I'd like to know if it really is in scale to my Armorcast Atlas.

What is the status of LAMs btw? I was following the stream and when that question got asked it got cut out.

M.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
(no seriously: What the feth is a 'challenge coin' anyway?)

Generally a coin with military unit markings on it, used for things like picking up the tab at a bar- the challenge is called, and anyone who doesn't have their coin with them loses and has to pay.

 MajorWesJanson wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
(no seriously: What the feth is a 'challenge coin' anyway?)

Generally a coin with military unit markings on it, used for things like picking up the tab at a bar- the challenge is called, and anyone who doesn't have their coin with them loses and has to pay.

And if every does have a coin, the lowest rank loses, IIRC? Think they came up in NCIS at some point.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
And some of us have to weigh up "costing extra but 100% getting what I ordered" vs "getting a 20% discount but also having to track down random stock from multiple different stores including paying shipping from multiple different locations with no guarantee that you'll ever find what you need".

All of which is to say: There's value in convenience.

Except that is demonstrably false.

Here is the quote from the Mercenaries Kickstarter:

Risks and challenges
Every campaign we hold a serious post-mortem to create a "lessons learned" document for future campaigns. Building off previous campaigns, we have hired a Community and Marketing Specialist to increase the quality of our communications. Other than that, the greatest risks we face are delays in China. However, after fighting our way through a pandemic and still delivering an amazing array of products in our last BattleTech campaign, we feel very confident that this one will fulfill as good or better!

This is required as legal text, and in the pledge it points out in EVERY Kickstarter the following information:

Backing isn't buying.
You're supporting ambitious creative work.
Kickstarter isn’t a store. We don’t guarantee projects or investigate a creator’s ability to complete them. It’s the responsibility of the creator to complete their project as promised, and the claims of the project are theirs alone.

So I don't know where the 100% comes from, you can't be promised 100% of what you ordered, you are promised up to 100% of what you ordered and unlike retail you get no compensation if you don't. You have no consumer rights on Kickstarter.

We need to hold Catalyst to the fire over same price, same product, but earlier than retail mantra. It is not the same sale if it is not under the same sales conditions.

 Orlanth wrote:
Except that is demonstrably false.

I got every 'Mech I ordered. It's not false at all.

 Orlanth wrote:
So I don't know where the 100% comes from, you can't be promised 100% of what you ordered, you are promised up to 100% of what you ordered and unlike retail you get no compensation if you don't. You have no consumer rights on Kickstarter.

You're missing the point entirely. This is about comparison.

With the exception of one (Prodos' Aliens KS) everything I've ever done through Kickstarter has arrived - delayed as it might be in some extreme cases, even to the point where I swore off ordering anything from the companies involved ever again - and I have no reason to suspect that the Force Packs in this KS won't arrive.

When I talk about 100% getting them, I mean that they're all in stock, coming from the same source, at the same time, ready to go. These are already produced/in production. These aren't concept sketches and lofty hopes, with a wing and a prayer that they'll be able to produce what they say. These thing exist.

It's the other side of the KS coin - one side is a dynamic KS where things get added all the time, but this causes delays, and the other side is a KS where everything is set in stone from the word go, with stretch goals that unlock things that were going to be part of the KS anyway, and with no surprises or any real incentive to increase pledges... which is what this KS currently is.

Compare to that to stores in my area, where one has two force packs in stock, another has 6 (different ones as well), and another stocks almost the whole range yet everything is out of stock with no ETA on new stock.

This is what I mean by value in convenience.

You can quote Kickstarter's rules all you like, but game companies use it as a malleable pre-order system, and it's been that way for years.

If the KS concept for this one would have been visible a day in advance, before pledging was possible, they wouldn't have made half the amount.
All the money was made from hype and FOMO and now that 90% of the people realise they are being ripped off, they begrudgingly cling to their pledges. Me included.
He'll, give me a trashbag with 50 random mechs and I'd be satisfied.

I went in big on the previous KS, so I'm sitting on a lot of mechs these days.

New KS? Sure, sign me up right away! More stuff, please!

But, I think that I've had an epiphany... I might have enough mechs, already...

Sure, there's new stuff that I'd like, but it looks like there's only one mech per forcepack that I'd want. I'm trying to be sensible, so it's not making sense for me to go crazy on this one - I'm dropping down to the base box; if I get that and a retail copy of the AS boxed set then I think that I'm done for my BT purchasing for the next 10 years.

Well, except for the Camacho's Cabelleros swag, I mean, that's totally cool!

I guess I'm lucky having a store near me that's going big in Btech, so I'm not feeling the need to go big (or at all) for this.

And having to add 21% on top of the prices makes it quite unappealing.

So... the Objectives box costs the same amount as the other vehicle boxes, but has 4 pieces in it rather than 8?

 Chillreaper wrote:
But, I think that I've had an epiphany... I might have enough mechs, already...

That sounds less like an epiphany and more like an aneurysm.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
So... the Objectives box costs the same amount as the other vehicle boxes, but has 4 pieces in it rather than 8?

 Chillreaper wrote:
But, I think that I've had an epiphany... I might have enough mechs, already...

That sounds less like an epiphany and more like an aneurysm.

Eeek! Never thought of that. Thanks for the warning!

Better get myself checked out. If the prognosis is rubbish, you can have my stuff.

One of the comments I saw indicated that if you took it as a pledge you would at least get a salvage box as per the IS lances.

Also, why don't they have pictures of the force packs on the KS?

Has anyone seen a full list of addons with their prices anywhere? I can't seem to find it on the Kickstarter page or any mention of it in the FAQs.

So I'm not a huge battletech guy but after starting to play mechwarrior 5 last year I picked up a couple of Lance box sets to paint.
Looking at this kickstarter I don't see anything that makes me want to jump in. If I'm going to drop $80 on battletech right now I'd go buy the alpha strike starter set, and any of this new stuff will wait until its released at retail. I don't see the benefit of paying for it a year or more in advance.

Also the kickstarter page doesn't do a great job of showcasing the models, its really hard to see whats in those packs.

Justyn wrote:
Also, why don't they have pictures of the force packs on the KS?

Probably because they want something to show on the updates

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:
Except that is demonstrably false.

I got every 'Mech I ordered. It's not false at all.

I see where you are coming from but I disagree.
That was past tense, and anecdotal.

If you didn't get your mechs from a retailer, you can get your money back via the bank.
If Catalyst didn't deliver for any reason, you cannot.

The if remains because this is an investment, not a purchase.

Beyond that I will say that you are flat out wrong, because legally neither Kickstarter nor any content creator on the platform can legally compare their products to retail as if comperable. Kickstarter claims for its own legal protection that were are not purchasers but investors and forces each and every content creator to make similar commentary in their own words.
Now matter how you cut it, we cannot compare with retail especially on surity of delivery and consumer rights.
It is entirely valid to say that there is no 100% guarantee of product delivery via Kickstarter, Catalyst may make promises, but ultimately will be forced to agree with this statement because Kickstarter themselves want legal cover against any losses, which will not occur if projects are seen as store fronts.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:
So I don't know where the 100% comes from, you can't be promised 100% of what you ordered, you are promised up to 100% of what you ordered and unlike retail you get no compensation if you don't. You have no consumer rights on Kickstarter.

You're missing the point entirely. This is about comparison.

Before we begin I will make the point that you are reiterating the argument of others, and appear to be in broad agreement that Catalyst should offer more.
we agree (correct me if I misinterpret you) that Catalyst are offering a poor deal compared to retail because it offsets 'convenience' of pre-purchase against lower prices. I am in agreement with your opinion on this, but also (as opoosed to instead) argue that the backing to retail purchase comparison is invalid anyway for other reasons

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

With the exception of one (Prodos' Aliens KS) everything I've ever done through Kickstarter has arrived - delayed as it might be in some extreme cases, even to the point where I swore off ordering anything from the companies involved ever again - and I have no reason to suspect that the Force Packs in this KS won't arrive.

I have been stung twice, and backed out of another games product before completion and avoided a scam. Once I backed a set of 6x4 game boards that fell apart. I got one of two sets of boards, there was an honst attempt at implementation. The second time I got burned backing a company making 3d printers. They made one update a month after completion than ran off with the money and closed the company. The company was ten years old and had existing product, so it looked (and technically was) legit. But they saw the writing on the wall so made a bullgak claim for a new 3d printer and ran the campaign just before folding the company. This must have been deliberate.

For the record Prodos is Archon Studio, though they like to deny it. There are two lessons for this. Prodos was not a scam company, they just fethed up the Kickstarter and dropped it, and their backers. Archon got wise and have not made the same mistakes. Same people though, so I have no doubt that if they did feth up big enough they would drop backers.
Hence this continued risk as there is no recourse if they do.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

When I talk about 100% getting them, I mean that they're all in stock, coming from the same source, at the same time, ready to go. These are already produced/in production. These aren't concept sketches and lofty hopes, with a wing and a prayer that they'll be able to produce what they say. These thing exist.

Its a low risk investment that is true. Catalyst has been riding high since Harmony Gold got a well deserved kurbstomp, most of thoer problems are behind them, but the economy is unstable, and we dont know Catalysts true financial position.
Catalyst are in the same legal position as Prodos found itself, if forced to choose between supplying backers and other legally bound commitments we will be dropped. That is the advantage of Kickstarter, it bypasses the normal pitfalls of commercial borrowing. We can hope that Catalyst is not in the same financial position so the consequences of the same legal poistion do not raise thier heads.
I think this is the case, but I can never say 100%. In fact if we look back to Catalysts earlier attempts at miniatures releases when the 25th anniversaruy sey became the 30th anniversary set, can you honestly say that nothing can go wrong.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

It's the other side of the KS coin - one side is a dynamic KS where things get added all the time, but this causes delays, and the other side is a KS where everything is set in stone from the word go, with stretch goals that unlock things that were going to be part of the KS anyway, and with no surprises or any real incentive to increase pledges... which is what this KS currently is.

I agree. I made a similar point earlier, which has since been made untrue. It appears that Catalyst preloaded all their sculpts before the campaign launched, but have made so much money that they will be adding a new Support Pack at 4 million. They are keeping the new add-ons, the first genuine stretchgoal yet encountered, modest so sculpt and tooling time will be kept to a managable minimum, I read this to mean that fulfilment will not be delayed.
This is looking to be a very safe Kickstarter, but not 100% by any stretch not only because one should never say never but because third party problems with China and the US economy may flatten Catalyst indirectly. Now these third party problems which are coming (just shy of that 100%) could cause such problems that missing mechs will be the least of our worries. But if it doesnt we don't know which companies are exposed, it doesnt even have to be Catalyst, if the shipper goes under, after accepting payment, or the factory, or the materials supplier.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Compare to that to stores in my area, where one has two force packs in stock, another has 6 (different ones as well), and another stocks almost the whole range yet everything is out of stock with no ETA on new stock.
This is what I mean by value in convenience.

Ok, time for a bit of blunt.
I will in a round about way concede your point on 'convenience'.

But....

If convenenient means "retailing" your mechs a year and a half in advance, in this current climate, with zero refunds if the transaction fails, because it is better than trying to order them from a FLGS, that cant get stock because of serial incompetence somewhere in the distribution claim for even longer; well I would hate to see what 'inconvenient' means.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

You can quote Kickstarter's rules all you like, but game companies use it as a malleable pre-order system, and it's been that way for years.

I will, you know and I know its a store front, but we do run a genuine risk. I got my Aliens vs Predator from retail, it is a reasonable game, though the aliens were feeble, inferior to colonial marines 1v1 in melee, yet die in droves to get there. I wonder if you ever got yours.

Kickstarter means: we can afford to be mostly bullish, but some days the bear gets you.
With the added risk should come reward, and rewards does not in my mind mean, or at least should not be limited to, bypassing the failed logistical network for retail product.

FWIW I went with the $150 backer since I am not greedy, I do not really need much to keep me happy and now I co own a store I can get whatever I need direct when it all drops, using the store card though we backed the $275 store deal which is actually pretty good for us, all 6 boxes will fly off the shelves.

Alright, so, having run the numbers for the Battalion and Regiment pledges, I come to a US$35-$40 difference between the two (in favour of the Battalion pledge) once everything is added on, factoring in all current achieved stretch goals. And also factors in getting two of the Clan Cavalry star.

It makes the assumption that the Objectives box is the same cost as the other vehicle boxes (of course I'm using free slots for all the vehicle boxes). It also assumes that the Legendary Mechwarrior II is the same cost as a Clan Star, and the Legendary Mechwarrior III costs as much as a vehicle box (again, using free slots, so kind of a moot point).

It does not take into account the fact that the Regiment pledge would net me an extra 4 Salvage boxes, as there are 4 IS Lances in the free slots.

 Dysartes wrote:

 MajorWesJanson wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
(no seriously: What the feth is a 'challenge coin' anyway?)

Generally a coin with military unit markings on it, used for things like picking up the tab at a bar- the challenge is called, and anyone who doesn't have their coin with them loses and has to pay.

And if every does have a coin, the lowest rank loses, IIRC? Think they came up in NCIS at some point.

If everyone has one, the person who called it loses.

https://customchallengecoins.net/how-to-practice-proper-military-challenge-coin-etiquette/

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

 MajorWesJanson wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
(no seriously: What the feth is a 'challenge coin' anyway?)

Generally a coin with military unit markings on it, used for things like picking up the tab at a bar- the challenge is called, and anyone who doesn't have their coin with them loses and has to pay.

And if every does have a coin, the lowest rank loses, IIRC? Think they came up in NCIS at some point.

If everyone has one, the person who called it loses.

https://customchallengecoins.net/how-to-practice-proper-military-challenge-coin-etiquette/

I had wondered about that for a while - thanks.