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in most of the games i've played in which i use a ven, they've been a serious under performer, are they worth the cost?

it really depends on your list build. Often, I use 3 venerable dreadnoughts to replace my terminators + land raider.

Their main purpose is close combat support, and they excel at it. Thunderwolves especially, are great targets, because at str10, they can instant kill the bastards. Ork nobs even, if the dreadnought can get the charge, have trouble killing them, because if they have, say, 3 nobs with claws, thats maybe 4-5 hits per turn, and 1-2 pens, and a glance. With the re-roll to damage, the dread will last almost forever... while if you manage to get 2 dreads into hand to hand, and instant kill 3 nobs or so, you'll win combat by enough to make the nobs flee, and hopefully run them down.

They also have the added bonus of being able to instant kill in hand to hand ork warbosses. This is huge, because removing 5 powerklaw attacks makes your dreads SO much more survivable, and also lowers the nobs leadership to crap.

Venerable dreads also act as fire magnets, absorbing fire that other, more vulnerable units might otherwise take. This means they work well for covering for land speeder typhoons or thunderfire cannons... high kill-power, yet fragile units. Try to employ them in combination with the sturdy venerables.

If you do take a venerable dreadnought, I'd suggest giving it a multimelta, plasma cannon, or assault cannon as a primary weapon. The other weapons, with the possible exception of the twin linked autocannon, are overpriced. I'd also recommend sticking with the stock storm bolter, as the heavy flamer is generally not super effective against targets the dreadnought should be going after, and if everything the dreadnought should be going after is already dead, you've pretty much won at that point anyway.

Really it all depends on your list build and the codex...

As a Space Wolf player, back in the 3rd edition codex I always had one in my list and it took up an HQ choice since the Space Wolves had to take an HQ for every 750 points in the army list.

In the regular Space Marine codex, I think the Ironclad is a much better option.

In the Space Wolf codex, I'd rather go with the regular dreadnought. Where the venerable one comes with WS 5, and the re-roll for the damage result. I'd rather save the points and just buy a regular dread and give him a wolf tooth necklace to hit in hth on a 3+. Otherwise you might as well just go big and pay for Bjorn.

I mostly agree, the only thing I disagree on is the heavy flamer. Typically the one time you fire the heavy flamer will do more damage than 6 turns of shooting that storm bolter. And most of the time you won't shoot 6 turns, since crew shaken/stunned comes up a lot.

A storm bolter over 6 turns will have 12 shots, and get about 8 hits.

It's not hard to get 8 hits in one use of a flamer template that's also strength 5.

Also, ven dreadnoughts excel at destroying/tarpitting squisy troops like guardsman, genestealers, firewarriors, etc. THe heavy flamer helps that.

I've had a Venerable dreadnought survive six rounds of close combat with a Daemon Prince (the last three saw a Bloodthirster enter the mix).

It was all due to the rerolls on the damage table.

Of course, my opponent rerolled a 1 or 2 every single time.

So yes, they're worth it.

It really does depend on the codex. I know Dark angles can get them cheaper than the current SM codex, and fighting 3 of those is not easy.

Templar Venerable Dreads are worth it (imo) because of their veteran skills. 10 more pts will get you furious charge so you hit on init 5 with your assault dred or tank hunters for an effective str 10 twin las on vehicles

I think the're worth it. The rerolls makes it as survivable as a landraider vs a lascannon shot.

I won't field non-Venerable Dreads in my Codex Marine lists. No way, no how.
I really like the damage rerolls, and the BS5. I like to fied two with assault cannons and DCCWs with heavy flamers, and one with TLLC/ML. The assault cannon versions get extra armor, so they always get to move forward. The twin-linked las at BS5 is priceless. No worries about missing, except once in a blue moon. I take the missile launcher because it matches the las range.

I haven't fielded an Ironclad yet, but regular Dreads always die too easily for my tastes. I prefer smaller, tougher armies to larger, disposable, spammier ones. Personal playstyle.

are they worth their costs?

lets see.

you pay an extra 60 pts over a regular dreadnought for

+1 BS and WS.

and the damage reroll.

they are definitly worth it.




the main problem is people don't know when to use the reroll, they do it on immobilized results and get a wrecked.


Only ever reroll Wrecked and explode results(or Immobilized and Weapon destroyed for a Glancing hit)

on a penetrating hit it means you have a 2/3s chance of keeping the dreadnought alive and on glancing hits its a 75% chance of nothing permanant happening at all.



also BS5 is a big advantage for a shooty dreadnought. you can have 2 tl-autocannons that reroll the few ones for almost garunteed hits and you have the reroll on the damage table. if your dreadnought is in cover then it becomes statistically very hard to kill.

all good advice, thanks, I think my issue is mainly in using them in smaller games like 1000 points, simply because they become a fire magnet and every time I have a re-rolled 6 it winds up being a 5, i'm thinking of just demoting my venerable to a regular status and making him a suicide drop pod dread

I would take an Iron clad over a Ven. The extra point of Armour lowers the number of hits both glancing and Pen that the walker will take. Also once in combat, the AV 13 means only Powerfist and Melta bombs can hurt it. Since most units nor carry Krak Grenades, then can hurt Ven Dreds but not Iron clads. That alone can be worth giving up a reroll.

Grey Templar wrote:are they worth their costs?

lets see.

you pay an extra 60 pts over a regular dreadnought for

+1 BS and WS.

and the damage reroll.

they are definitly worth it.

This is where I really think it depends on the codex...

For Space Wolves I just don't see it. Probably more preference than anything else, but the WS 5 isn't worth it if I can buy a Wolf Tooth Necklace for a regular dreadnought at 10 points that allows him to hit anything in hth on a 3+.... So is 50 points really worth it for a dammage re-roll and +1 BS?

After playing for with a Venerable Dreadnought as a staple in my army for 8 years, I've learned that a re-roll is a false sense of security. The only time you really make use of that re-roll is when you have a roll of a 5 or a 6 on the penetration chart. Otherwise, you're probably going to stick with whatever you got, and there's no guarentee that you won't roll another 5 or a 6.

I'm not saying it's a bad option, just that If I can field a dreadnought with the same weapons and a land speeder for the same points you just spent on a ven dread, then I really don't think it's worth it.

If you include a MotF than a Venerable upgrade can be worth it. Still think it would be the first place Id go when needing to shave pts. BS5 is pretty pointless tho since everything except for the assault cannon and the plasma cannon is twin linked making BS5 less useful.

I had a venerable dread tie Marneus Calgar up for 5 turns we decided he was too busy bench pressing the dreadnaught after ripping off its arms roaring "HEY LOOK GUYS CHECK OUT HOW BUFF I AM"

some games they are, sometimes they aren't. But if you need to cut some points to fit in stuff you NEED, ven is pretty much the first thing to go.

well after this weekend, during which venerable brother Krom rolled double 6's on his two re-rolled penetrating hits, I've decided venerables and me do not get along, thus he's been demoted to an ironclad in a drop pod. And in light of my fists overall shortcomings, I've decided to forsake the Emperor and his lack of protection lol, perhaps Pertuarbo will protect my armor better

Venerables hardly do their job better than Ironclads.

Just remember that Ironclads are fleet when you're using them.

What are you smoking grayspark?

ICs have Move through cover, not fleet.

apparently the good stuff, i wish ICs had fleet lol

I definitely want one,i will be shoehorning it into my clubs 1K league come hell or high water.I just need to see how it performs in combat for myself i think,i have always liked the model.

Ironclads and Venerables are two different species of unit.
Ironsclads get better shooting and damage rerolls, and a huge variety of arm options.
Ironclads are cheaper, get AV13, and a ton of anti-tank shooting at short range (though they can buy HKs). They can also smash the face off damn near anything with an AV in close combat.
A single melta shot can slag either one. Rerolls against melta hits are much tougher to mitigate.

Selecting between the two really depends on what you want the two to do. If you want a rock-hard shooting platform in your backfield that damn near always hits, go Venerable. If you want a walking fire magnet to lead your Rhinos and Vindicators into the fight, go Ironclad.

I'm not a fan of suiciding ANY of my units, so I flatly refuse to drop pod my Dreads (or Sternguard, or Tac Squads, etc etc etc.). If you want to throw 170+ points ontot he table to get one shot off, be my guest, though.