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A brief back-story for perspective to what I am going to ask. I started playing 40K when it was in it's 2ed back in '93. I played Dark Angels and Orks with a small group of friends including the one who introduced me to the hobby. We played extensively. I still have the Dark Millennium box and various accessories. We put the hobby away in the garage about 10 years ago. It's only been in the last year that we decided to get back into it. We purchased the new codexes and rules. We also dusted off our old armies and started updating them with newer models, newer paint, modifications, etc. And then we started to play...

So much has changed that the game is almost unrecognizable from the game we played a decade ago.. o.k. I exaggerate, but only a little. To get the hang of the new rules we started with 500pts and then up to 750pts battles. I'm strictly playing Orks for now. My friend is playing Ultramarines, each of us with the newest possible codexes. Something feels out of whack. In the 2ed days, I always lost. I was a terrible player and had a hard time with the strategy of the game. Everybody whipped me, nearly 99% of the time.

Now, I can't be beaten. My Orks walk over my friend's smurfs almost every battle and he's not at all happy about it. Each battle, regardless of the goal: Annihilation, Seize Ground, Capture and Control, all he does is stand on or near each unit's initial deployment area and shoot at me as I run as fast as I can towards him. Every game becomes an Annihilation game with him trying to wipe me out as I try to accomplish the mission goal. He will never, ever try to capture and control anything. It's very frustration and tiresome but he insists that this is the way the new rules insist he play whether or not he likes it. He says that Space Marines can no longer fire effectively if they move, that is unless he is within 12" of my Boys, which he is never going to be able to do as that draws him into my assault zone, where I almost always destroy him.

It seems to me, and correct me if I am wrong, but it seems that the new rules have crippled the Space Marines in order to force you into using vehicles. I have a few small vehicles for my Orks, but he doesn't have any for his Smurfs. Am I wrong in thinking that it's practically impossible to have a footslogging Ultramarine army? Is it that hard to create a 750pt army without drop-pods and Rhinos that can do anything but sit still and shoot?

Two thoughts
1] Marines if used right are very hard to beat and at that points level Gun lines can work if you know what you are doing.

2] Trade Armies with him for a few games, this way you will find out if is the Smurfs or you.

There shouldn't really be that much problem with making a footslogging Marine army work at low points values, although (especially against Orks) it's not going to be as effective as a mech army. Does he have anything other than marines at all: dreadnoughts, bikes, land speeders, terminators, etc?

He needs to adjust his tactics to try to avoid getting charged by big units of orks, since that will destroy him every time. If he sets things up so that he can charge the orks instead, his marines will be a lot more effective: that way he gets twice as many attacks, killing many more orks before they get to strike. Winning combat means even more orks will die from No Retreat wounds.

Obviously, it's going to be hard to avoid getting charged by orks since they have the Waaagh rule for one turn of Fleet movement. Instead of letting your whole ork horde hit his gunline at the same time, he needs to tarpit them and set up counter-charges. For example, ork mobs are not very good at dealing with dreadnoughts or assault terminators (thunder hammer and storm shield), so having a dread or a unit of termies out in front will mean the orks have to charge them instead. Once they are engaged, his regular marines can move up and assault, and with the orks locked in combat they are only S3 and I2, giving the marines a huge advantage.

For situations where a counter-charge isn't possible, he should try to make it difficult for you to get a charge by forcing you to move through difficult terrain to get to him. If he's lucky, this will leave your orks just out of charge range, in which case he can move up, use bolt pistols and flamers (he's taking flamers in his tactical squads, right?) to soften up the unit, then charge.

It sort of sounds like he's falling into the trap of wanting to protect all his models from harm. While it's an appealing idea, that's just not how 40k generally works. There will always be situations where some part of your force needs to be sacrificed in order to win.

Finally, he really needs to be concentrating on objectives. Hanging back and trying to wipe out an ork horde is never going to work, under any circumstances. Orks are too numerous and too tough for it to be an option. Instead, he needs to work on winning according to the rules of the mission. Forcing you to split up your force's attention between multiple objectives reduces your advantage of numbers.

Also, some tanks would probably help.

vinbreau wrote:
It seems to me, and correct me if I am wrong, but it seems that the new rules have crippled the Space Marines in order to force you into using vehicles.

Well, you only have to use vehicles if you want to win. The 5th edition rules require you to have some kind of mobility, and that means vehicles or bikes for space marines. Except for orks who get the mobility of the waagh when on foot, which allows them to defeat other foot armies.

If he mechs up and you don't, you'll find that he beats you all the time.

Flavius Infernus wrote:

vinbreau wrote:
It seems to me, and correct me if I am wrong, but it seems that the new rules have crippled the Space Marines in order to force you into using vehicles.

Well, you only have to use vehicles if you want to win. The 5th edition rules require you to have some kind of mobility, and that means vehicles or bikes for space marines. Except for orks who get the mobility of the waagh when on foot, which allows them to defeat other foot armies.

If he mechs up and you don't, you'll find that he beats you all the time.

I'm gonna have to disagree there. I've seen plenty of footslogging armies win battles against mechanised forces, so although having transports certainly does help, it isn't the be-all and end-all of the game.

At 750 points, I'd recommend the following list:

750 Pts - Space Marines Roster

HQ: Space Marine Librarian (1#, 100 pts)
1 Space Marine Librarian @ 100 pts (Unit Type: Infantry; ...in Power Armour; And They Shall Know No Fear; Combat Tactics; Independent Character; Psyker; Null Zone; The Avenger)
1 ...in Power Armour (Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Psychic Hood; Bolt Pistol; Force Weapon)

Troops: Tactical Squad (10#, 190 pts)
9 Tactical Squad @ 190 pts (Unit Type: Infantry; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Bolt Pistol x9; Bolter x7; Flamer; Missile Launcher; And They Shall Know No Fear; Combat Squads; Combat Tactics)
1 Sergeant (Unit Type: Infantry; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Melta Bombs; Bolt Pistol; Power Weapon x1; And They Shall Know No Fear; Combat Squads; Combat Tactics)

Troops: Tactical Squad (10#, 195 pts)
9 Tactical Squad @ 195 pts (Unit Type: Infantry; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Bolt Pistol x9; Bolter x7; Flamer; Missile Launcher; And They Shall Know No Fear; Combat Squads; Combat Tactics)
1 Sergeant (Unit Type: Infantry; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Bolter; Power Fist x1; And They Shall Know No Fear; Combat Squads; Combat Tactics)

Heavy Support: Devastator Squad (5#, 150 pts)
4 Devastator Squad @ 150 pts (Unit Type: Infantry; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Bolt Pistol x4; Missile Launcher x4; And They Shall Know No Fear; Combat Squads; Combat Tactics)
1 Sergeant (Unit Type: Infantry; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Signum; Bolt Pistol; Bolter; And They Shall Know No Fear; Combat Squads; Combat Tactics)

Fast Attack: Assault Squad (5#, 110 pts)
4 Assault Squad @ 110 pts (Unit Type: Jump Infantry; Krak Grenades; Jump Pack; Power Armour; Bolt Pistol x3; Chainsword x4; Flamer; And They Shall Know No Fear; Combat Squads; Combat Tactics)
1 Sergeant (Unit Type: Jump Infantry; Krak Grenades; Jump Pack; Power Armour; Bolt Pistol; Close Combat Weapon; And They Shall Know No Fear; Combat Squads; Combat Tactics)

First, combat squad the two Tactical squads in objective missions. Deploy the Devestators and the tactical squad halves with missile launchers as far away from the orcs as possible, preferably within two turns + running of an objective so you can contest late in the game. Take your librarian, two tactical squad halves with the flamers and sergeants, and the assault squad and run them as essentially one big unit. Use the missile launcher fire to kill any orc vehicles first to take away his mobility, and then frag missile him hard to reduce numbers. Follow up by having your 4 flame templates hit his weakened mobs and make concentrated assaults. You basically want to keep your marines together and focus on killing one mob at a time.

Question, does he have any Whirlwinds? They tend to wipe orks off the board. Granted my experience of them is through the SW codex, but if they have the same weapon profile, not much ought to change.

For the OP, To answer the last question in your post, no it is not impossible, it is just that sitting and shooting is what a space marine army will tend to, if run so simply and at such a small point level. Here is a 1750 army that I would run, that didn't just stand and shoot.

Librarian w/ JP

5 man scout Squad w/ Missile launcher

10 man Space Marine squad with flamer and missile launcher

2x 5 man Assault squad w/ flamer

2x whirlwinds (Just because you said you were tired of winning)

Combat squad the big marine squad into a group with a flamer, and a group with the missile launcher. Use the assault marines to flame and assault squads of boys when they get down to 15 or so models. The whirlwinds incendiary round will kill as many boys as it can wound, and this list has 2 shots per turn. It also has enough rockets to take out light armor. I made this list in about 5 mins, there is plenty that could be tweaked. This isn't a list geared to mobility, I could have run 2 bare scout squads as troops and put all my other points into Fast Attack, but it is designed to do more than just sit back. Other units to consider throwing into the mix are land speeders and bikes.

I hope this is proof enough that you can run ultras other ways than sit back and shoot without meching up or going drop pod. If you want an nilla SM list tailored to beat up on your list, why not post what you have.

He needs several things to deal effectively with orks. Those several things: Flamers. Also in Objective missions he should focus on grabbing the objectives and killing what he can on the way.

What does your list look like in these 750 games?

All really great advice. He just purchased a Dread for his smurfs but no vehicles like Rhino's, etc., not even a bike.

I read the DA codex last night and one big change jumped out at me and I think explains the point of his stress. In 2ed, Marines were a continually forward moving force; bolters could fire at full range while moving if I recall correctly. In 5ed, with the primary weapon being rapid-fire, the SM has to get within 12" to be effective. The SM has been somewhat hobbled by way of changes to their standard issue wargear. Confirming all of this requires me mining my garage for 2ed books which isn't going to happen anytime soon.

I'll be playing DA soon vs his CSM and Eldar. I have a Rhino and am going to scratch-build a drop pod to avoid the situation he seems to be in. I guess I'm just amazed at how such a subtle change has such a dramatic effect on the overall way an entire army can be played... Not even complaining, just wowed.