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 Boss Salvage wrote:

 Vomikron Noxis wrote:
... and I already need to rethink what I want to build and paint.

I'm just putting paint to my skull cannon-happy khorne artillery army, and all I can say is I'll be asking permission to ignore the anti-spam protocols (and only play casual games, though that was the plan anyway). I'm struggling to see how they don't invalidate mono-god style armies - including Haemonculus Covens or Wych Cults - that aren't just hordes of the same 1 troop choice over and over.

Come to think of it, all of my 40k builds apart from Daemons of Tzeentch are now illegal, and the blue boys aren't only because I haven't built that third chariot yet ...

- Salvage

You can have 3 of something, so the third chariot should be fine.

Bam! Maybe I'll dig Tizz back out then ... and shelf my new Khorne boys / consign them to pity games

- Salvage

VoidSempai wrote:

Fun thing : it also mean you will never die using the reroll from impossible robe, as a roll of 1 becomes a 2 (like prescience + plasma).

I think we should write GW about it and Impossible Robe will be errataed to kill it's wearer on natural 1... as it probably was designed anyways.

AstraVlad wrote:

VoidSempai wrote:

Fun thing : it also mean you will never die using the reroll from impossible robe, as a roll of 1 becomes a 2 (like prescience + plasma).

I think we should write GW about it and Impossible Robe will be errataed to kill it's wearer on natural 1... as it probably was designed anyways.

You can actualy be killed by it if something gives you -1 to your invuln.

That said it is the impossible robe... wouldn't be so impossible if it didn't try to do something thats not possible...

So how do we get first blood post FAQ?

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
So how do we get first blood post FAQ?

Soul Grinders, Advancing horrors, Blood Cannons, Psychic powers, first turn charges (screamers and lots of Slaanesh demons), burning Chariots, exalted flamers......

Lots of options still work, but it's not automatic like it used to be with DS horrors and bloodletter bombs.

Other armies are automatic with actual shooting.

Regarding Burning Chariots, I have now 3 Exalted Flamers more than I need
Would it be an option to set them on a chariot as heavy support?

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Other armies are automatic with actual shooting.

Yup, but heavy shooting armies (often) struggle with line breaker against daemons.

Also daemons have the option of making a list which is very hard to get first blood against: max size units of pink horrors + characters.

I'm not saying the Beta rules don't hurt daemons, but I think pure daemons can still be a solid army.

Well the shooting armies now will have 1-2 turns of uninterrupted shooting. 3-5 if they are playing well.

I'm positive daemons are now low tier


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, linebreaker is a lot easier. Just send a bike/jet into your opponents zone last turn

While I think mono-God daemons (except Tzeentch) will struggle with the post FAQ world, mixed daemons should have enough tools to adapt. More command points will help us more than others, since we have some great but high cost stratagems.

I wonder is summoning becomes more appealing, now we don't need the CPs as much and your DS units aren't charging first turn anyway. I'm thinking Tzeentch Horrors/Brimies protecting some heralds and Exalted flamers, turn two summon 6+ units that counter the other army. 4+ units of flamers would kill against a dedicated assault list or 100+ horrors against a list that has over loaded on anti-tank weapons. Although come to think of it, a supreme command of un-marked chaos marines might be a better call, so you can summon from all four gods. Would require a large collection of daemons but would be a complete headache to play against.

To everyone who says "bah, deepstrike turn 2 isn't a big deal" - try going second.
You have to last through 2 whole turns without deepstrike and by that point, your opponent has taken about 75% of the board

Yup totally agreed. If you don't need to deep strike turn 1, you are playing bad players / lists. Even going turn 1 it was rough sometimes with screens and scouts and infiltrators and stratagems and overwatch and etc.

I was so annoyed at having to shelve my daemons for the season I made a salty meme about it:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
To everyone who says "bah, deepstrike turn 2 isn't a big deal" - try going second.
You have to last through 2 whole turns without deep-strike and by that point, your opponent has taken about 75% of the board

If you recon your opponent is going to claim 75% of the board, deep striking into your own deployment zone shouldn't be much of a problem

But seriously, If your relying that much on deep strike surely the 50% power limit is just as much of an issue?

It's not. 4PL brimstones. Solved.

And he claims 75% in 2 turns. Before I could deepstrike to push him away. Turn 1 he can just get into position but not out of position. Turn 2 he moves up and zones out the deepstrikes from 75% of the map (he can deepstrike first)

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
It's not. 4PL brimstones. Solved.

And he claims 75% in 2 turns. Before I could deepstrike to push him away. Turn 1 he can just get into position but not out of position. Turn 2 he moves up and zones out the deepstrikes from 75% of the map (he can deepstrike first)

Then you need to rethink how your playing and your listbuilding. I have already seen quite a few Daemon lists proposed that, in my opinion, look great on paper. Taking minimum units of things like Letters isn't a bad idea now, because you need just a few to get there against things like Gunlines or Marines.

Also, if your opponents taking 75% of the field before T2, you aren't prioritizing mobility. Bloodthirsters, LoC's, chariots, flying DP's, slaneesh stuff, we have stuff that can move, and move quick. This is where the FAQ changed listbuilding fundamentally; its not all about killing power now.

You do realise that my mobility does not matter at all. A flier can fly in and have a 9'' zone around him of no deepstrike. Also talking about taking greater daemons Best way to prove you have no idea what you're talking about

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
You do realise that my mobility does not matter at all.

Apparently so, since you're fine with your opponent taking 75% of the board in two turns while you do nothing.

Zid is correct: everything we have available needs to be looked at again with fresh eyes. These FAQs have changed the game. You can choose to bitch and moan about it, or you can try to figure out how to play again.

Nice of you to cut out a bit of my quote... I'm talking about fast moving units that can just move into my zone so I can't deepstrike anything useful. There is LITERALLY NOTHING I can do to stop that because he will go in his movement phase and the only place where I can interract with the board is past my movement phase - meaning past my deepstrike. This wasn't a problem before. You could only move once and the only things that could reach the other side easily were fliers. Right now the opponent gets 2 turns of movement. So even 6'' moving dudes can get far.

Anyway, whatever. I'm ditching the army for now (except maybe nurgle daemons, will have to try that). I have 4 armies to play with. I'll go play those until the rules are fixed.

I used to lick handfuls of salt off my hand as a kid and the level of salt in these threads are even making me gag.

As mentioned above, it looks like my initial prediction of people looking at Slaanesh again have somewhat come true. Seekers and Fiends moving up the board very quickly are now a high priority unit for me, whereas before I was thinking of shelving my seekers. I play mono-Slaanesh so... I suppose my perspective is different.

Though to be fair, I was not deep striking anything before this FAQ came out. I design my Slaanesh lists to have a lot of targets and we play with a decent amount of terrain, mitigating 1st turn shooting against me. My seekers have normally gotten 1st turn charges or are close enough and out of LOS where I force my opponent to move/react.

With the extra CP we will have I won't be afraid to put warp surge or whatever the +1 to save is on my units anymore that I believe are a high priority target as well.

So I'm building up my demon army now (8th is my first edition of warhammer), and I'm setting myself to a minimum of units of 20 bloodletters and Pink Horrors. My question is, do i need to make these out to 30 or save points for other things? We play a lot more casual games than it seems people here do, and even our tournaments consist of everyone playing models they like as oppose to cutthroat list, and we don't use the Beta Rules (since they are untested and usually poor)

Given how many more CP you should have now, 30 bloodletters are worth the 2CP it takes to deepstrike them. Putting down 20 with the 3d6 banner to multi assault everything in range means they are going to lose a few models to overwatch and lose their 2+ to hit. If you have the models to do it, and still have enough troop models for 2 more units, then go for it.

Nick Nanavati's opinion: chaos deamons are really bad without CSM allies now. The only one that's ok is Nurgle daemons but again that's a lot better with Death Guard.
Full on deepstrike assault armies are DEAD. That should only be used as a tool of an army.

So yeah. RIP my bloodletter list.

 UncleJetMints wrote:
So I'm building up my demon army now (8th is my first edition of warhammer), and I'm setting myself to a minimum of units of 20 bloodletters and Pink Horrors. My question is, do i need to make these out to 30 or save points for other things? We play a lot more casual games than it seems people here do, and even our tournaments consist of everyone playing models they like as oppose to cutthroat list, and we don't use the Beta Rules (since they are untested and usually poor)

I'd definitely get them both up to 30, the +1 to hit/+1 shooting makes a massive difference and the bigger unit benefits more from any buffs you have (aura, psychic powers etc).


So does anyone have thoughts on what Units will shine in a post FAQ world? As a mainly Tzeetch player I'm looking forward to big (deployed) units of horrors racing across the board without being worried about as many first turn chargers tying them up in combat. Once they get in 18", few units can out shoot them.

Screamers also feel a bit better now that there are less first turn charges (which they are more than capable of pulling off), but still feel over costed for a 2 wound model.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Full on deepstrike assault armies are DEAD. That should only be used as a tool of an army.

So basically, you're saying that silly gimmick lists are dead, and that we should bring balanced and flexible lists now ? Seems like everything is working as intended to me...

BTW rvd1ofakind, could you please put spoiler tags on your big image of previous page, it makes the thread unreadable on smartphones.

Um.. please tell me what else do Nurgle/Slaanesh/Khorne daemons have if not full on assault and deepstrike. They have (next to) no shooting. That's the problem.
Pure chaos daemons are now, in my opinion, borderline unplayable in tournaments. They are still really good as allies. But alone - NOPE. Maybe tzeentch, but the results would still always be worse than Daemons + CSM

 rvd1ofakind wrote:

Pure chaos daemons are now, in my opinion, borderline unplayable in tournaments. They are still really good as allies. But alone - NOPE. Maybe tzeentch, but the results would still always be worse than Daemons + CSM

Please do not be a crybaby, man. I'm playing 40k since 5th and can build a personal magic tower from all that salt cried by players whose codex become less powerful or just started to play another way: "OMG, I quit! I've spent my money for nothing! GW is evil!" and so on.

Everything changes. Just find a new way to play or go to Infinity/ Warmachine/ AoS/ etc what you like.

I for myself played with mono-Tzinch army that was hit hard (no, HARD!!!) by new rules for smite. And have you seen me here crying? Nope, I just look through the codex thinking and planning. May be I'll ally some Khorne daemons, may be some TS golems, may be even take some FW stuff after playtests. But there is literally no reason to cry. It will change nothing, it will help nobody, it will solve no problems at all.

And considering tournaments -- hell with them. If you want to win big events you should have never played mono-daemons in the first place.

Well that's YOUR point of view. I care a lot about tournaments. Hell, I've yet to be beat in the 3 local tournaments I went to. I just have 4 armies. And now I consider daemons to be the worst of the 4. Which means I will NOT bring them to a tournament. Simple.

AstraVlad wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:

Pure chaos daemons are now, in my opinion, borderline unplayable in tournaments. They are still really good as allies. But alone - NOPE. Maybe tzeentch, but the results would still always be worse than Daemons + CSM

Please do not be a crybaby, man. I'm playing 40k since 5th and can build a personal magic tower from all that salt cried by players whose codex become less powerful or just started to play another way: "OMG, I quit! I've spent my money for nothing! GW is evil!" and so on.

Everything changes. Just find a new way to play or go to Infinity/ Warmachine/ AoS/ etc what you like.

I for myself played with mono-Tzinch army that was hit hard (no, HARD!!!) by new rules for smite. And have you seen me here crying? Nope, I just look through the codex thinking and planning. May be I'll ally some Khorne daemons, may be some TS golems, may be even take some FW stuff after playtests. But there is literally no reason to cry. It will change nothing, it will help nobody, it will solve no problems at all.

And considering tournaments -- hell with them. If you want to win big events you should have never played mono-daemons in the first place.

You are perfect example of WHY GW doesn't care about balance and just shuffles meta around. Army got screwed? Let's buy more models to replace previous ones!

And thus we get into stage where balance of 40k doesn't improve and indeed with newest FAQ took downhill to worse.

When exactly do we activate our Banner Stratagems, and is there any limit on the number of units that can use them?