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Made in at
Discriminating Warrior





Austria

Sarouan wrote:
 kodos wrote:
Baxx wrote:
Imagine Blood Bowl having 4-5 different team rosters for each team?!?

no one would care, as soon as GW goes down that route the LRB will be back and BB running without GW again
the community is too organised for GW to play stupid


Yeah, right. People have said that for Necromunda as well.

Oh, look at how things are now !


I did not know that Necromunda had something similar to NAF, what happend to it?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/17 20:05:28


Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise

M41 - Alternative Rules for Battles in the 41st Millennium (40k LRB Project) 
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut




 ohreally wrote:

So you need:

1. Game Rules (Hardcover Rulebook, Dark Uprising, Hive War)
2. Campaign Rules (Hardcover Rulebook (Dominion), Book of Judgement (Law and Misrule), Dark Uprising (Uprising))
3. Gang Rules

Cawdor - House of Faith* (or GotU for basic gangs)
Delaque - House of Shadow* (or GotU for basic gangs)
Escher - House of Blades (or GotU for basic gangs)
Goliath - House of Chains (or GotU for basic gangs)
Orlock - House of Iron (or GotU for basic gangs)
Van Saar - House of Artifice (or GotU for basic gangs)

Palanite Enforcers - Book of Judgement or Dark Uprising
Corpse Grinders - Book of Ruin or Dark Uprising
Genestealer Cults - Book of Ruin
Helot Chaos Cults - Book of Ruin
Slave Ogryns - House of Chains
Venators - Book of Peril


Thanks, that's really helpful. It seems I was misplaced in my ire then, if Hive War is functionally the same as the standalone rulebook. That does make it a cleaner pitch for my group.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Myrtle Creek, OR

 kodos wrote:
Sarouan wrote:
 kodos wrote:
Baxx wrote:
Imagine Blood Bowl having 4-5 different team rosters for each team?!?

no one would care, as soon as GW goes down that route the LRB will be back and BB running without GW again
the community is too organised for GW to play stupid


Yeah, right. People have said that for Necromunda as well.

Oh, look at how things are now !

A
I did not know that Necromunda had something similar to NAF, what happend to it?

It still exists. Visit the Yaktribe site’s Vault section to find the Community edition of Necromunda.
   
Made in no
[DCM]
Necron of Munda





Hive War is a different version of the game, some of these are noted below. Keep in mind all books are always different from each other. All books have new, changed, omitted and some identical content. If you create a gang using N21 Hive War it will be different than if you use any other book. Likewise, if you play a game it will be distinctly different than any other rulebook.

- Stiletto knife on p92 is different from stiletto knife on p93 (they are both wrong in different ways from the actual stiletto knife).
- Mind the Door (p87) is different from previously, now having S3, D2 and no AP (used to be D3 no saves allowed).
- Loot caskets have changed, not granting the D6 credits and have different distribution of results (mainly because this book doesn't support campaign).
- Reinforcements are simplified.
- Delaque autopistol (p58) is 10 credits (instead of 5 in N18).
- Van Saar laspistol/meltagun combi has the laspistol (N20) part instead of lasgun (N18) and costs 120 (N18) instead of 130 (N20).
- Grav pistol (p93) is a brand new weapon (and grav gun is no longer available in the limited equipment lists).
- Dive is a brand new skill (without belonging to any skill set).
- Fleeing the battlefield (Cool tests) is moved from the start of the round to the end phase, this was an expected update and confirms the same change was not an error in N20 "House of" books,
- Cawdor fighting knife is 55 credits (instead of 5).
- Only Orlock & Cawdor have dumdum bullets.
- No Juves (or anything else beyond Leader, Champion & Ganger).

Other notes I found interesting:
- Tactics cards for all the new scenarios are "draw 2, keep 1" which is the recommended solution by the community for years (custom selection is the worst solution GW made for the cards).
- Some of the scenarios have round limitations which should put increased focus on the objectives (instead of simply shooting the enemy instead). Also killing all enemies is not always auto-win. This is definitly an improvement.
- The repeated laspistol-melta combi together with the new grav pistol together with the omitted grav gun indicates this is a stealth errata and was a mistake since N18 GotU. Something GW won't openly admit but happily sell through additional books.
- The 2x11 Tactics cards included are revised reprints, having more or less meaningful changes, but still some are far from idiot-proof.

I will let new players judge whether this is good for them or not. Personally I would not start with this version of Necromunda.

This message was edited 8 times. Last update was at 2021/05/18 09:08:25


 
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block





Baxx wrote:
Hive War is a different version of the game,


This is just FUD. The rules up until the gangs lists are the same as the rules in the Rulebook and Dark Uprising (plus the errata).

- Stiletto knife on p92 is different from stiletto knife on p93 (they are both wrong in different ways from the actual stiletto knife).
Doesn't matter, once your get your gang book you'll have the right stats anyway.

- Mind the Door (p87) is different from previously, now having S3, D2 and no AP (used to be D3 no saves allowed).
Seems like a good rule change. Most likely it will be added to the next errata.

- Loot caskets have changed, not granting the D6 credits and have different distribution of results (mainly because this book doesn't support campaign).
Doesn't matter, until you play a campaign, which this book clearly states repeatedly it doesn't include and is not meant to replace.

- Reinforcements are simplified.
Indeed they are.

- Delaque autopistol (p58) is 10 credits (instead of 5 in N18).
Doesn't matter, once your get your gang book you'll have the right cost anyway.

- Van Saar laspistol/meltagun combi has the laspistol (N20) part instead of lasgun (N18) and costs 120 (N18) instead of 130 (N20).
Doesn't matter, once your get your gang book you'll have the right cost anyway.

- Grav pistol (p93) is a brand new weapon (and grav gun is no longer available in the limited equipment lists).
It's almost certain that House of Shadow will include the new Grav Pistol as well as the the Grav Gun in the Delaque list.

- Dive is a brand new skill (without belonging to any skill set).
Doesn't matter, once you found a campaign game you just don't have it to choose from.

- Fleeing the battlefield (Cool tests) is moved from the start of the round to the end phase, this was an expected update and confirms the same change was not an error in N20 "House of" books,
An expected rules change as you said, probably will feature in the next errata anyway.

- No Juves (or anything else beyond Leader, Champion & Ganger).
Doesn't matter. You can hire a Juve when you found your campaign gang using your House book or GotU.

You shouldn't build a gang from this book for a campaign and it tells you as much in the book.

One new weapon, a few small erratas, and two simplified rules is hardly a "new game".

Thanks for compiling the extremely minor changes though, it really points out just how useful Hive War is for a new player or group!

Personally I'd love to teach a new player with this version of Necromunda.
   
Made in ca
Fresh-Faced New User




As a new player, I would hate to learn this version
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






Just do what we do- Play with the gang lists and use the rules you want. If they get too complicated, you make a Gang ruling across the group.

We were playing this game when it was just a list and a few ganger models with Leaders, Heavys, Juves...

Your not locked in or beholden to rules that don't work with your fit of group. If you have a few players that come in with the "New Rules", you give them a hand up, get them playing, and then you can add or subtract what rules you add in, dependent on the game/ scenario.

Agreed whole hearted with the price lists though, and you just have to play it by ear with your groups- You find an error, you make a note on the side of the page and tab it.

Aside of the added stuff from FW, we've been having a ball when we had been playing Necro, but the COVID restrictions really dealt a hand to the LFGS, so we haven't been playing for awhile, now..

On a lark, I've been picking up all of these other books, they're OK, I guess, but nothing is mandatory, except a gang and a roster.



At Games Workshop, we believe that how you behave does matter. We believe this so strongly that we have written it down in the Games Workshop Book. There is a section in the book where we talk about the values we expect all staff to demonstrate in their working lives. These values are Lawyers, Guns and Money. 
   
Made in us
Sadistic Inquisitorial Excruciator




USA

My disappointment is that there isn’t “the rulebook” for this game. Obviously it isn’t intended for tournament play and is meant as a casual game with friends, but it’s frustrating to have so many books to carry around and own for a single game.

I would much prefer a single book with a basic campaign, basic trading post, basic gang lists (juves, gangers, champions, and leader) and the core rules. I don’t like that everything is split across a ton of sources.

From my understanding the closest thing I could get to this is buying the core rulebook and gangs of the underhive, but then It sounds like hive war changed some of the core rules to the game.

I’d like to play this game. I love the miniatures and the core game play is awesome. I have the tiles/terrain/doors from the first boxed set and I have a Cawdor and Van Saar gang just hanging out waiting to be built, but the game just seems like a bloody messy to get a complete set of rules.

I have literally no interest in the house books. The only thing I have liked that they have added is the cyber mastiff. The gangs have enough differences with the different stats, skill lists, and different weapon options.

 
   
Made in vn
Longtime Dakkanaut




Imagine unironically support deceptive tactics like printing "alternative" and wrong rule that won't be supported, because they're still printing expansion for the current one.

How about this : how about printing the correct rule, how about stop alienating the playerbase, how about letting player have a legal gang to play with the normal folks even if their choice are limited? Woah crazy demand!!! They treated people who bought these starter boxes like some free loader second class citizen. (even though nothing is free)

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/18 03:49:12


 
   
Made in nl
Secret Inquisitorial Eldar Xenexecutor






your mind

Bravo my Chinese friend ... why not indeed!

   
Made in ca
Dakka Veteran





 ohreally wrote:

Personally I'd love to teach a new player with this version of Necromunda.

Why?

All your arguments so far are along the lines of "it's not that broken" (which is true). But you haven't managed to say anything positive about it or offer a reason to recommend someone gets this instead of the standalone rulebook.

So you're right that it's not that broken, but it's still pointless, and should be considered DOA for most purposes (especially when trying to entice a newbie).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/18 04:09:06


 
   
Made in ca
Terrifying Wraith





Canada

I dont have any problems with the number of books. IMO you only need 3 books (rules book, gang of the underhive and book of peril). With those 3 books you can do everything you want. If you want more, is your personnal choice.

 
   
Made in us
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps






 hellpato wrote:
I dont have any problems with the number of books. IMO you only need 3 books (rules book, gang of the underhive and book of peril). With those 3 books you can do everything you want. If you want more, is your personnal choice.


Problem, of course, is that's two books too many. You should need one book to play the game, and everything else should be, as you say, a "personal choice".

On the other hand, the NCE and Outlanders NCE are still a thing, and I can use most of the minis there anyways (and the ones I can't... well, tough, I guess I don't need to buy them).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/18 06:03:04


 
   
Made in it
Gargantuan Gargant




Italy

One book that includes both games and gang rules is something GW doesn't even consider since the 90s maybe. Maybe just a single book if you only want to play with what's in the starter, like Dark Uprising.

Two books should be the standard, one with the core rules (including tournaments, campaign, trading post, generic hired guns, etc..) and one with the detailed gang rules and lore, like a codex.

That shouldn't be unreasonable.

Orks 7000
Space Wolves 4000
 
   
Made in us
Sadistic Inquisitorial Excruciator




USA

 Blackie wrote:
One book that includes both games and gang rules is something GW doesn't even consider since the 90s maybe. Maybe just a single book if you only want to play with what's in the starter, like Dark Uprising.

Two books should be the standard, one with the core rules (including tournaments, campaign, trading post, generic hired guns, etc..) and one with the detailed gang rules and lore, like a codex.

That shouldn't be unreasonable.


Just because GW doesn’t do something, doesn’t mean it isn’t done. Most games follow that pattern. And GW hasn’t always been like that. Mordheim in my opinion, is the most fun game GW ever produced. Complete game in one book. Want optional material? Cool, get some Town Criers or Empire in Flames.

Not to mention that GW produces games where you need one rulebook to play. Warcry (all the Warbands that were intended to be part of the game come with their stat cards), Blood Bowl, Kill Team, Warhammer Underworlds (they even make this one free as a PDF). Sure Warcry has lots of expansion material you can use, as does Blood Bowl, but you don’t need it to play the base game.



 
   
Made in us
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps






Also, for Necromunda, IMHO the "base game" is the campaign. Yes, you can do gangs and play single games, but... that's not what the game is.

You should NOT need anything but the core book to play a bog standard Necromunda campaign.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/18 07:55:45


 
   
Made in no
[DCM]
Necron of Munda





 Sabotage! wrote:

I have literally no interest in the house books. The only thing I have liked that they have added is the cyber mastiff. The gangs have enough differences with the different stats, skill lists, and different weapon options.

The Cyber mastiff was first introduced in 2018 with the Gang War books and later reprinted in N18 (GotU) It's been reprinted unchanged in N20 (House of Iron).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 hellpato wrote:
I dont have any problems with the number of books. IMO you only need 3 books (rules book, gang of the underhive and book of peril). With those 3 books you can do everything you want. If you want more, is your personnal choice.

Someone only playing a Cult, Enforcers or Slave Ogryn can't do anything with those 3 books... It's funny because your argument could be made without the Perils book. You're the first one I've seen to list Perils included in "all that you need". No problem with 18 books in 4 years? To me, that's a scandal and a scam.

All I need is 1 single book (300 pages), then I have all content in one place, most of the errors fixed and have the complete game up to date with all rules included. GW will never make this book, but I did.

I don't understand how others can know what anyone except themselves "need". You certainly don't know what I need. Most people don't need to play Necromunda at all. Some only need the N17 rulebook and play that starter box. Some only need the N19 rulebook and play that starter box. Some only need Hive War and only play that starter box. There you have multiple examples of what others "need" that excludes all 3 books you mention.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/05/18 09:34:37


 
   
Made in au
Grizzled Space Wolves Great Wolf





In recent days I tried to look into what would be a good place to start with Necromunda and gave up As a newbie it's very confusing.
   
Made in us
Is 'Eavy Metal Calling?





Affton, MO. USA

While Necromunda May not be a tournament game, I should be able to bring my gang and a rulebook (A rulebook, singular) to a 40k tournament and get a pickup game with someone I don’t know. Right now that’s not possible because I’d have to bring multiple books and my gang to be able to play and we would probably still have rules arguments because of which version is correct. Making house rules is great for local gaming with friends, but your not going to be able to grow the group quickly because you would have to introduce each new player to the house rules and then inevitably have to redo the house rules every so often to fix new issues.

One clear rulebook is needed, but it’s not one players need, it’s the one GW needs to go by. They need to sit down with themselves and set up a plan, and so far they haven’t been able to do that. Theirrulebook needs to say “We will have one MAIN book, which trumps everything, that we will put out a yearly FAQ for.” After that “we will write a codex for each gang, but nothing in those books can override the Main Book.” Lastly “once all the gang books are out we will rewrite the MAIN book with all the amendments to it from the FAQs” the current issue isn’t just like 40k, every new codex comes out with newer things that bend/break the main rules so that by the time the third book is out thefirst one is no longer competitive or fun to play.

LOL, Theo your mind is an amazing place, never change.-camkierhi 9/19/13
I cant believe theo is right.. damn. -comradepanda 9/26/13
None of the strange ideas we had about you involved your sexual orientation..........-Monkeytroll 12/10/13

I'd put you on ignore for that comment, if I could...Alpharius 2/11/14 
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

They made it soo easy with MESBG.

A core rulebook, another book with all the gang expanded rules... and keep it at that. Then release supplements with narrative driven rules to spice your scenarios like the CHAOS BOOK with the rules to corrupt your warbands and make campaings in chaos tainted hive cities with bestiaries for demons and stuff or I don't know.


AllSeeingSkink wrote:
In recent days I tried to look into what would be a good place to start with Necromunda and gave up As a newbie it's very confusing.


Same. I had a community made rulebook that included everything up to date with faqs and erratas and white dwarf rules for chaos and genestealers in one single file and it was great but I believe it was taken down by GW.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/18 12:57:33


 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block





 Altruizine wrote:
 ohreally wrote:

Personally I'd love to teach a new player with this version of Necromunda.

Why?


The 30 pages of game rules are the same as the core Rulebook +Errata, formatted slightly better with good Designer Notes to guide new players.

It supports all 6 gangs out of the box so players can get started with what's included or one of the 4 other House gangs.

The gang founding rules themselves are simplified but fundamentally the same as GotU, just missing the extra stuff you don't need if you're not playing in a campaign. (And yes a few costs are different, but when you do found a campaign gang you should use the same method as the other people in your campaign anyway. The book clearly states the gang founding rules included are for the learning scenarios and only support what's in the exact gang kits.)

The scenarios are written to guide the players through the different parts of the game in stages. Then it even has guidance for connecting the games in a mini campaign to add some persistence.

There is lots of guidance about expanding the game and how to do it properly and what the game is (usually) about (Campaigns, persistance, craziness, etc).

Basically it makes a good introductory manual that will still be useful to a new player as a rules reference. If a player without a group were to buy this and then find a group for a campaign, they would be able to supplement it with just the appropriate House book and be ready to go. If they need to agree on which version of the "Reinforcement" rules they're using it's hardly going to be an insurmountable discussion.

So in my opinion (and it's my opinion, not gospel) it makes a decent (but not perfect) on ramp to the Necromunda game system. It's a formalized version of Goonhammer's MiniMunda with a rulebook that will remain of use to the player for as long as they need it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/18 13:11:40


 
   
Made in no
[DCM]
Necron of Munda





Some of the weapons available to all fighters of certain gangs in Hive War is only available to Leader/Champions in the full game. Something to look out for.

When you say the rules are "the same", that's where I disagree and have proven in detail. I'll grant you the rules are in many cases almost the same or mostly the same. But books never have identical rules. The way you play the game can identify which rulebook you're using (and not using). You can't do that if the rules are "the same".

If GW simply and only copied a previous rulebook, trimmed it down and simplified it to make it a true subset, we wouldn't have this discussion. The rules could have been made "the same". GW chose not to. I'll also grant you this may be a good starting point for new players. Going the direction they did with this book, if it was up to me, I would have made it a lot better. That's not something I'm able to say about other games (I'm not a game designer).

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/05/18 13:23:31


 
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block





 Sabotage! wrote:
My disappointment is that there isn’t “the rulebook” for this game.

I would much prefer a single book with a basic campaign, basic trading post, basic gang lists (juves, gangers, champions, and leader) and the core rules.



The Rulebook + Gangs of the Underhive will give you the experience you're looking for. Hive war did not change the core rules of the game. Cyber Mastiffs are in GotU.

It is "the Rulebook" and together with GotU it makes a complete game system. All the other books are just optional addons.
   
Made in vn
Longtime Dakkanaut




I wouldn't call giving gang wrong skill that they can't use in the actual game "simplified".

Unless you think new necromunda players suffer from extreme mental deficiency that they can't understand the skill table, or fall into a coma if they see the Juve choice.
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block





Baxx wrote:

When you say the rules are "the same", that's where I disagree and have proven in detail. I'll grant you the rules are in many cases almost the same or mostly the same. But books never have identical rules. The way you play the game can identify which rulebook you're using (and not using). You can't do that if the rules are "the same".


They're only rewritten for clarity and the errata has been included. The core rules aren't functionally different. Things excluded are excluded because they aren't relevant to the context at hand (one-off learning games and a small linked game campaign).

You want to nitpick every detail but that's on you.

You going through it with a fine tooth comb to find every period and comma out of place is useful to people who are experts but your attitude that this is some soft reboot and that everything is changed and that it's untenable and these rules are incompatible with the rest of the game is just BS that confused or drives people away.

I'd say you're a net negative to the game despite the actual good work you do sometimes. Maybe stop always looking for the negatives in everything. Just go work on your compilation and keep enabling people stealing the rules if you think it's so bad to have an actual starter set with an actual beginner friendly rulebook. This book isn't for you or people like you.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Chopstick wrote:
I wouldn't call giving gang wrong skill that they can't use in the actual game "simplified".

Unless you think new necromunda players suffer from extreme mental deficiency that they can't understand the skill table, or fall into a coma if they see the Juve choice.


This is the exact idiocy I'm talking about.

So you play with a skill you can't have while learning.

Then you start a new gang for a campaign with your House book and you see you can't have that skill.

What do you do? Oh no? I learned a skill I can't use? All is lost!

FFS, don't be dumb. You're the one underestimating the mental capacity of a new player.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/18 13:33:06


 
   
Made in no
[DCM]
Necron of Munda





 ohreally wrote:

You want to nitpick every detail but that's on you.

I would say that's on GW. If we play "the same game" as you claim it is, we will have some confusion about several core game rules, because they're different in the different rulebooks.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/22 12:35:38


 
   
Made in vn
Longtime Dakkanaut




 ohreally wrote:


This is the exact idiocy I'm talking about.

So you play with a skill you can't have while learning.

Then you start a new gang for a campaign with your House book and you see you can't have that skill.

What do you do? Oh no? I learned a skill I can't use? All is lost!

FFS, don't be dumb. You're the one underestimating the mental capacity of a new player.


If you have people with the actual rule book to share, then why even buy this "starter" again? Just get the model separately

And what's the reason behind printing the wrong rule again? Why can't rule be right? Why can't rule be the same?Even if the choice are limited, why can't they all be the right choice? Oh wait I know why, because they still want people to buy their rulebooks. And they didn't even clarify about this in their store description : "Hey players, in this box you'll play our homebrew version of the game and not the actual game"

It blew my mind it's all come down to the classic GW saleman reply " Just buy the actual rule books, dumb dumb!" WOW....
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block





Baxx wrote:

I would say that's on GW. If we play "the same game" as you claim it is, we will have some confusion about several core game rules, because they're different in the different rulebooks.


Name one core game rule that's different other than fleeing the battlefield cool checks moving to the end phase (a change people expected and will probably feature in a future errata).

So far other than that you named a scenario rule (Reinforcements), and two terrain rules (Mind the Door and Loot Caskets).

Your argument is that if we were to play (god forbid) we wouldn't be able to agree on these things (if they even came up at all) and that these are insurmountable changes that make it a different game?

If we play a scenario without reinforcements on a table without doors, two of these are eliminated immediately. You're being ridiculous.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Chopstick wrote:

If you have people with the actual rule book to share, then why even buy this "starter" again?


If you have the current hardcover Rulebook there is no real reason to buy this box set unless you want all the models and other contents, then it's a slight discount.

It turns out that starter sets aren't for people who already play a game, they're for people that want to get started playing a game.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/18 13:46:36


 
   
Made in us
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps






 ohreally wrote:
If we play a scenario without reinforcements on a table without doors, two of these are eliminated immediately. You're being ridiculous.

Yeah, and if you don't play at all you eliminate them all!

Saying "if you don't use those rules the rule discrepancies don't matter" is at the same time self evident, irrelevant and disingenuous.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/18 13:55:02


 
   
Made in vn
Longtime Dakkanaut




It's crazy nowaday for customers wanting an honest product, not scummy scheme and trickery.

And the price still go up ofc, fantastic.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/18 13:58:58


 
   
 
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