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Reading again through the rumours and leaks so far I am a bit disheartened by the fact that instead of creating a cool new Faction Rule GW choose to do a plain copy of Space Marine Codex Doctrines. Fluffwise this is an insult, considering that CSM never followed any Codex Astartes, but follow it closer than the damned Ultramarines. Also the Icons, Marks and Subfaction Rules all read like variations of the same buffs changed here and there. Especially the wanton rules are just bad design. Looking at how awesome the Chaos Knight Rules became with the Harbinger of Doom (in terms of new interactions and a faction feeling more unique) it feels so far like GW lacks any motivation to do CSM well.
There is sooo much unused potential here. Either by tying CSM back up to HH a bit more or by pushing them more and more on the deamonic possesed design. Instead GW went full ,Space Mahrens but bad‘ train. Even the Accursed Weapons brought potential despite all controversy. Imagine different factions getting different buffs on that profile. People would then love to go wild on them. But no, just a weird inconsistent merge. I still hope some of the leaks will deviate from the final book because so far it looks like someone just desired to get it done. Or maybe the final book will look surprisingly better when we have the full access to it. Dunno.
charles_the_dead_lizzard wrote: Reading again through the rumours and leaks so far I am a bit disheartened by the fact that instead of creating a cool new Faction Rule GW choose to do a plain copy of Space Marine Codex Doctrines. Fluffwise this is an insult, considering that CSM never followed any Codex Astartes, but follow it closer than the damned Ultramarines. Also the Icons, Marks and Subfaction Rules all read like variations of the same buffs changed here and there. Especially the wanton rules are just bad design. Looking at how awesome the Chaos Knight Rules became with the Harbinger of Doom (in terms of new interactions and a faction feeling more unique) it feels so far like GW lacks any motivation to do CSM well.
There is sooo much unused potential here. Either by tying CSM back up to HH a bit more or by pushing them more and more on the deamonic possesed design. Instead GW went full ,Space Mahrens but bad‘ train. Even the Accursed Weapons brought potential despite all controversy. Imagine different factions getting different buffs on that profile. People would then love to go wild on them. But no, just a weird inconsistent merge. I still hope some of the leaks will deviate from the final book because so far it looks like someone just desired to get it done. Or maybe the final book will look surprisingly better when we have the full access to it. Dunno.
As someone else in the thread put it, CSMs have been following the Codex Astartes since 4th edition - following it far closer than actual Space Marines do.
With some luck the book will be better than the leaks portray (but there is really no room for optimism here) - but so far the best thing defenders can point to is a single kit (the leaked Cultist warband) not matching up with play test rules?
The biggest indicator someone is a loser is them complaining about 3d printers or piracy.
charles_the_dead_lizzard wrote: Reading again through the rumours and leaks so far I am a bit disheartened by the fact that instead of creating a cool new Faction Rule GW choose to do a plain copy of Space Marine Codex Doctrines. Fluffwise this is an insult, considering that CSM never followed any Codex Astartes, but follow it closer than the damned Ultramarines. Also the Icons, Marks and Subfaction Rules all read like variations of the same buffs changed here and there. Especially the wanton rules are just bad design. Looking at how awesome the Chaos Knight Rules became with the Harbinger of Doom (in terms of new interactions and a faction feeling more unique) it feels so far like GW lacks any motivation to do CSM well.
Disheartened is a good way to put it.
Doctrines were novel and unique when they were introduced to the game. Giving CSM getting a tweaked version makes sense from the standpoint of symmetry, but it doesn't recognize the fact they are a fundamentally different faction that fights differently.
It's not a big problem, just a missed opportunity.
charles_the_dead_lizzard wrote: Reading again through the rumours and leaks so far I am a bit disheartened by the fact that instead of creating a cool new Faction Rule GW choose to do a plain copy of Space Marine Codex Doctrines. Fluffwise this is an insult, considering that CSM never followed any Codex Astartes, but follow it closer than the damned Ultramarines. Also the Icons, Marks and Subfaction Rules all read like variations of the same buffs changed here and there. Especially the wanton rules are just bad design. Looking at how awesome the Chaos Knight Rules became with the Harbinger of Doom (in terms of new interactions and a faction feeling more unique) it feels so far like GW lacks any motivation to do CSM well.
Disheartened is a good way to put it.
Doctrines were novel and unique when they were introduced to the game. Giving CSM getting a tweaked version makes sense from the standpoint of symmetry, but it doesn't recognize the fact they are a fundamentally different faction that fights differently.
It's not a big problem, just a missed opportunity.
Yeah. Plus, the doctrine would have passed way better if our dex came out way earlier into 9th.
charles_the_dead_lizzard wrote: Reading again through the rumours and leaks so far I am a bit disheartened by the fact that instead of creating a cool new Faction Rule GW choose to do a plain copy of Space Marine Codex Doctrines. Fluffwise this is an insult, considering that CSM never followed any Codex Astartes, but follow it closer than the damned Ultramarines. Also the Icons, Marks and Subfaction Rules all read like variations of the same buffs changed here and there. Especially the wanton rules are just bad design. Looking at how awesome the Chaos Knight Rules became with the Harbinger of Doom (in terms of new interactions and a faction feeling more unique) it feels so far like GW lacks any motivation to do CSM well.
Disheartened is a good way to put it.
Doctrines were novel and unique when they were introduced to the game. Giving CSM getting a tweaked version makes sense from the standpoint of symmetry, but it doesn't recognize the fact they are a fundamentally different faction that fights differently.
It's not a big problem, just a missed opportunity.
I do feel it is a big problem, because it speaks to how fundamentally misaligned the design team is with what the community wants.
CSM may follow the Codex Astartes closer than loyalists, but loyalists have more pre-Heresy equipment! I think this is because loyalists are mostly primaris marines from the Heresy-era, but CSM are mostly firstborn who turned to the dark side much later.
charles_the_dead_lizzard wrote: Reading again through the rumours and leaks so far I am a bit disheartened by the fact that instead of creating a cool new Faction Rule GW choose to do a plain copy of Space Marine Codex Doctrines. Fluffwise this is an insult, considering that CSM never followed any Codex Astartes, but follow it closer than the damned Ultramarines. Also the Icons, Marks and Subfaction Rules all read like variations of the same buffs changed here and there. Especially the wanton rules are just bad design. Looking at how awesome the Chaos Knight Rules became with the Harbinger of Doom (in terms of new interactions and a faction feeling more unique) it feels so far like GW lacks any motivation to do CSM well.
Disheartened is a good way to put it.
Doctrines were novel and unique when they were introduced to the game. Giving CSM getting a tweaked version makes sense from the standpoint of symmetry, but it doesn't recognize the fact they are a fundamentally different faction that fights differently.
It's not a big problem, just a missed opportunity.
I do feel it is a big problem, because it speaks to how fundamentally misaligned the design team is with what the community wants.
Yeah, giving CSM "Spiky Doctrines" is both incredibly uncreative, and not what many CSM players would want. They might be ok mechanically, but thematically, they're a complete miss IMO. Especially when compared to what the other Chaos factions released so far have, like Death Guard, Thousand Sons, and Chaos Knights.
charles_the_dead_lizzard wrote: Reading again through the rumours and leaks so far I am a bit disheartened by the fact that instead of creating a cool new Faction Rule GW choose to do a plain copy of Space Marine Codex Doctrines. Fluffwise this is an insult, considering that CSM never followed any Codex Astartes, but follow it closer than the damned Ultramarines. Also the Icons, Marks and Subfaction Rules all read like variations of the same buffs changed here and there. Especially the wanton rules are just bad design. Looking at how awesome the Chaos Knight Rules became with the Harbinger of Doom (in terms of new interactions and a faction feeling more unique) it feels so far like GW lacks any motivation to do CSM well.
There is sooo much unused potential here. Either by tying CSM back up to HH a bit more or by pushing them more and more on the deamonic possesed design. Instead GW went full ,Space Mahrens but bad‘ train. Even the Accursed Weapons brought potential despite all controversy. Imagine different factions getting different buffs on that profile. People would then love to go wild on them. But no, just a weird inconsistent merge. I still hope some of the leaks will deviate from the final book because so far it looks like someone just desired to get it done. Or maybe the final book will look surprisingly better when we have the full access to it. Dunno.
I mean Renegades followed the Codex, but the Legions definitely shouldn't be doing Doctrines and should be doing something else.
charles_the_dead_lizzard wrote: Reading again through the rumours and leaks so far I am a bit disheartened by the fact that instead of creating a cool new Faction Rule GW choose to do a plain copy of Space Marine Codex Doctrines. Fluffwise this is an insult, considering that CSM never followed any Codex Astartes, but follow it closer than the damned Ultramarines. Also the Icons, Marks and Subfaction Rules all read like variations of the same buffs changed here and there. Especially the wanton rules are just bad design. Looking at how awesome the Chaos Knight Rules became with the Harbinger of Doom (in terms of new interactions and a faction feeling more unique) it feels so far like GW lacks any motivation to do CSM well.
There is sooo much unused potential here. Either by tying CSM back up to HH a bit more or by pushing them more and more on the deamonic possesed design. Instead GW went full ,Space Mahrens but bad‘ train. Even the Accursed Weapons brought potential despite all controversy. Imagine different factions getting different buffs on that profile. People would then love to go wild on them. But no, just a weird inconsistent merge. I still hope some of the leaks will deviate from the final book because so far it looks like someone just desired to get it done. Or maybe the final book will look surprisingly better when we have the full access to it. Dunno.
I mean Renegades followed the Codex, but the Legions definitely shouldn't be doing Doctrines and should be doing something else.
Time for me to butt in and say again Renegades and Traitor Chapters should be handled in the Loyalist Scum codex.
charles_the_dead_lizzard wrote: Reading again through the rumours and leaks so far I am a bit disheartened by the fact that instead of creating a cool new Faction Rule GW choose to do a plain copy of Space Marine Codex Doctrines. Fluffwise this is an insult, considering that CSM never followed any Codex Astartes, but follow it closer than the damned Ultramarines. Also the Icons, Marks and Subfaction Rules all read like variations of the same buffs changed here and there. Especially the wanton rules are just bad design. Looking at how awesome the Chaos Knight Rules became with the Harbinger of Doom (in terms of new interactions and a faction feeling more unique) it feels so far like GW lacks any motivation to do CSM well.
There is sooo much unused potential here. Either by tying CSM back up to HH a bit more or by pushing them more and more on the deamonic possesed design. Instead GW went full ,Space Mahrens but bad‘ train. Even the Accursed Weapons brought potential despite all controversy. Imagine different factions getting different buffs on that profile. People would then love to go wild on them. But no, just a weird inconsistent merge. I still hope some of the leaks will deviate from the final book because so far it looks like someone just desired to get it done. Or maybe the final book will look surprisingly better when we have the full access to it. Dunno.
I mean Renegades followed the Codex, but the Legions definitely shouldn't be doing Doctrines and should be doing something else.
Time for me to butt in and say again Renegades and Traitor Chapters should be handled in the Loyalist Scum codex.
They don't belong in either is the issue, there is no right or wrong for how far down the chaos path they've gone. In reality an advanced build a faction that adds loyalist tech or daemon units based on how many corruption points you pick or something would be a good go between.
charles_the_dead_lizzard wrote: Reading again through the rumours and leaks so far I am a bit disheartened by the fact that instead of creating a cool new Faction Rule GW choose to do a plain copy of Space Marine Codex Doctrines. Fluffwise this is an insult, considering that CSM never followed any Codex Astartes, but follow it closer than the damned Ultramarines. Also the Icons, Marks and Subfaction Rules all read like variations of the same buffs changed here and there. Especially the wanton rules are just bad design. Looking at how awesome the Chaos Knight Rules became with the Harbinger of Doom (in terms of new interactions and a faction feeling more unique) it feels so far like GW lacks any motivation to do CSM well.
There is sooo much unused potential here. Either by tying CSM back up to HH a bit more or by pushing them more and more on the deamonic possesed design. Instead GW went full ,Space Mahrens but bad‘ train. Even the Accursed Weapons brought potential despite all controversy. Imagine different factions getting different buffs on that profile. People would then love to go wild on them. But no, just a weird inconsistent merge. I still hope some of the leaks will deviate from the final book because so far it looks like someone just desired to get it done. Or maybe the final book will look surprisingly better when we have the full access to it. Dunno.
I mean Renegades followed the Codex, but the Legions definitely shouldn't be doing Doctrines and should be doing something else.
Time for me to butt in and say again Renegades and Traitor Chapters should be handled in the Loyalist Scum codex.
They don't belong in either is the issue, there is no right or wrong for how far down the chaos path they've gone. In reality an advanced build a faction that adds loyalist tech or daemon units based on how many corruption points you pick or something would be a good go between.
Aye. I think that a lot of the "Renegades belong in the Loyalist Scum Codex" folks always assume that all Renegades are recent Renegades, who have only been turned for a short time. But many Renegades will have been operating against the Imperium for a long time, and will have acquired many of the more typical "Chaos" units, while having lost some of the loyalist stuff that tends to break down in the Warp, like anti-grav tech. The CSM codex does a fairly decent job of representing these "older" Renegade warbands, but the loyalist codex would possibly be better for "newer" Renegades. The trick is getting the "in between" warbands right.
charles_the_dead_lizzard wrote: Reading again through the rumours and leaks so far I am a bit disheartened by the fact that instead of creating a cool new Faction Rule GW choose to do a plain copy of Space Marine Codex Doctrines. Fluffwise this is an insult, considering that CSM never followed any Codex Astartes, but follow it closer than the damned Ultramarines. Also the Icons, Marks and Subfaction Rules all read like variations of the same buffs changed here and there. Especially the wanton rules are just bad design. Looking at how awesome the Chaos Knight Rules became with the Harbinger of Doom (in terms of new interactions and a faction feeling more unique) it feels so far like GW lacks any motivation to do CSM well.
There is sooo much unused potential here. Either by tying CSM back up to HH a bit more or by pushing them more and more on the deamonic possesed design. Instead GW went full ,Space Mahrens but bad‘ train. Even the Accursed Weapons brought potential despite all controversy. Imagine different factions getting different buffs on that profile. People would then love to go wild on them. But no, just a weird inconsistent merge. I still hope some of the leaks will deviate from the final book because so far it looks like someone just desired to get it done. Or maybe the final book will look surprisingly better when we have the full access to it. Dunno.
I mean Renegades followed the Codex, but the Legions definitely shouldn't be doing Doctrines and should be doing something else.
Time for me to butt in and say again Renegades and Traitor Chapters should be handled in the Loyalist Scum codex.
They don't belong in either is the issue, there is no right or wrong for how far down the chaos path they've gone. In reality an advanced build a faction that adds loyalist tech or daemon units based on how many corruption points you pick or something would be a good go between.
Aye. I think that a lot of the "Renegades belong in the Loyalist Scum Codex" folks always assume that all Renegades are recent Renegades, who have only been turned for a short time. But many Renegades will have been operating against the Imperium for a long time, and will have acquired many of the more typical "Chaos" units, while having lost some of the loyalist stuff that tends to break down in the Warp, like anti-grav tech. The CSM codex does a fairly decent job of representing these "older" Renegade warbands, but the loyalist codex would possibly be better for "newer" Renegades. The trick is getting the "in between" warbands right.
I haven't finished my SM Fandex (because nobody will play against it anyway) but the system I'd have is each founding Chapter (and its successors) has an automatic "unique" unit they have access to, and then can be customized with further unique units. No, your Ultramarines don't NEED a Calvary equivalent, but one of your Ultramarine successors might. Just don't use them if you don't want them, basically.
One unique unit would be "Mutants" which covers Wulfen equivalent. A renegade Chapter loses access to all unique units except said Mutants, and gains access to Furies, Daemon Prince, and....something else I haven't decided. It sounds like a lot until you realize I'm doing consolidation of many unit entries so there's theoretical space.
Gadzilla666 wrote: The trick is getting the "in between" warbands right.
IMO there wouldn't be a point as it would be a mess of restrictions and rule swaps that would cause more problems than it would solve. One or the other should be the choice for rules, models is down to the individual.
Gadzilla666 wrote: The trick is getting the "in between" warbands right.
IMO there wouldn't be a point as it would be a mess of restrictions and rule swaps that would cause more problems than it would solve. One or the other should be the choice for rules, models is down to the individual.
Yeah, it would be difficult to avoid just ending up with "CSM +1" (loyalist units/equipment), or "loyalists +1" (CSM units/equipment). For narrative purposes, I guess you could go with the 2nd edition Chaos Codex route and allow Renegades to use loyalist equipment and units, but at a significant price increase (+50%), maybe?
EviscerationPlague wrote: No, your Ultramarines don't NEED a Calvary equivalent, but one of your Ultramarine successors might. Just don't use them if you don't want them, basically.
No-one needs another Calvary - or another Calgary, for that matter. One of either was enough.
Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.
Kanluwen wrote: This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.
Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...
tneva82 wrote: You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something...
So, for Chaos Lords in Terminator armour at least, lighting claws are still lighting claws and power axes are still power axes. But, power axes are now D2? And +1 W, +1 Ld, and +2A?
Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.
Kanluwen wrote: This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.
Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...
tneva82 wrote: You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something...
Power creep (or GW clowns) in action, the Sorcerer Lord has 6W 5A vs. TS/DG with 5W 4A.
Some mixed feelings, as I've spent the whole time since those codexes came out saying the characters are all a wound (and sometimes attack) short of where they should be.
Adding in the missing W and A to TS/DG via dataslate would be nice. Adding master crafted Axe/Sword to Blightlords would be even nicer.
There has been a lot less hype for the CSM codex for the last two months as I think a lot of players just couldn't work out how they would keep the stats even between shared TS/DG/SM/CSM units and have the power level be anywhere close to the last five codexes.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/28 09:07:25
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
EightFoldPath wrote: Power creep (or GW clowns) in action, the Sorcerer Lord has 6W 5A vs. TS/DG with 5W 4A.
Some mixed feelings, as I've spent the whole time since those codexes came out saying the characters are all a wound (and sometimes attack) short of where they should be.
Adding in the missing W and A to TS/DG via dataslate would be nice. Adding master crafted Axe/Sword to Blightlords would be even nicer.
Could be power creep or it could be differentiation in the Sorcerers between Codexes:
CSM: +1W and +1A
Death Guard: +1 T and Disgustingly Resilient
Thousand Sons: Thrall ability (more Sorcerers per detachment), two Psychic Disciplines of 9 powers each, and the Cult Psychic Power as an additional power (thus 3 know powers instead of 2)
Could be either, maybe the extra wound is to add some durability without the special rules that Death Guard and Thousand Sons have (Disgustingly Resilient, All is Dust), and the extra attack is to make the CSM Sorcerer more "fighty" than the more psychically powerful Thousand Sons, and tougher Death Guard Sorcerers. Or, it's just codex creep.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Could be either, maybe the extra wound is to add some durability without the special rules that Death Guard and Thousand Sons have (Disgustingly Resilient, All is Dust), and the extra attack is to make the CSM Sorcerer more "fighty" than the more psychically powerful Thousand Sons, and tougher Death Guard Sorcerers. Or, it's just codex creep.
'All is Dust' doesn't apply to characters, just Rubricae and Terminators.
She/Her
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