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Made in us
Water-Caste Negotiator




So I'm pulling my Tau off the shelf (aka the floor of my parents garage) for the first real time since 5th edition. It's been so long I have mostly forgotten the tactics of everything but my 18 rail rifle list... Could anyone offer competitive tactics that are still effective in 5th? (on a side note: my main opponent plays ba at 2k normally, sometimes tank heavy sometimes death company heavy)

If Bruce Lee is advocate and does kick someone between the legs in a fight, why would I be to good to do it?

My fighting style: Hit em hard, hit em fast, hit em where it hurts, hit em where they can't see you or hit back.

It's funny how everyone wants their opponent list to be fun to play against and yet their own playlists are often tough as nails and impossible to modify.-Q'iq'el on ATT
 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Arcata, CA

Leave the Kroot at home unless you want a walking shield for crisis suits. Also, use the MP/PR/MT combo on them. Also, get Devilfish transports. Mech is the way to go in 5th Ed.

love  
   
Made in us
Charing Cold One Knight




Lafayette, IN

Kroot are important. Sure they don't look like much, but they are the green bubble wrap that keeps your army safe.

Don't go with devil fish spam, mech is good, but devil fish are too expensive to bring, and don't have much fire power.

Take pirahna, they block the enemies movement, and can be equipt to deal damage to mechanized units.

Marker lights are your friend, but dont' take more than you need (a smallish squad of pathfinders is all you need)

Don't take more fire warriors than you need to. The ones you do have to take, put in a devil fish and keep them safe.

Don't be tempted into bad suite configurations. Most of them are bad, I recommend only missile pods and plasma for weapons.

Broadsides and hammer heads for your heavy support. 2 slots of one, and 1 of the other. Which particular ratio, is personal preference.

No matter what people tell you, the ninja tau tactic (I think the war gear is called positional relay, book not in front of me) is NOT good. Sure it will kill a Newb or scrub, but its not a serious tactic.

Tau really wants to be fully mech, but the fish of fury list from 4th is obsolete. So that leaves them with semi mech, with heavy crisis suite support. Tau are about the only army that can pull off a hybrid list, and they are quite good at it.

 
   
Made in us
Discriminating Deathmark Assassin






notabot187 wrote:Kroot are important. Sure they don't look like much, but they are the green bubble wrap that keeps your army safe.

Still kind of new to 5th edition, and wondering about this; won't your opponents get a cover save against -your- shooting too? Or is living cover only in one direction?

   
Made in us
Shas'la with Pulse Carbine




Levittown, NY

They will if you shoot through the kroot, but depending on what you're shooting at who, it may not matter (Shooting AP 5 at 3+ or 4+ armor saves means cover is irrelevant.)

Of course with suits you can jump outside of the wrap, shoot, and then jump back in.

40K: The game where bringing a knife to a gun fight means you win.

2000 Orks
1500 Tau 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




St. George, UT

Sadly the only real competitive list for Tau looks something like this.

6-9 crisis suits
4-6 broadsides
1-2 - hammerheads
6 firewarriors in D-fish
20-40 kroot + hounds (to make bubbles)
2-4 pirahna as speed bumps.

Because of Jump shoot Jump with proper placement of kroot and suits, you can have the suits move out of the kroot bubble to get clean shots, then move them back behind the kroot to get the cover saves.

Also the kroot bubble can keep infiltrators and DS away from your suits as well.

See pics of my Orks, Tau, Emperor's Children, Necrons, Space Wolves, and Dark Eldar here:


 
   
Made in ca
Member of the Malleus





Canada

Also, if it is a BA player, combine fire, pick one unit that is the closest threat, and hammer it with everything until it dies, 3 Death Company can beat an insane number of kroot and Tau in combat, you just can't let them get in unless it is with like one guy against all of your kroot with you charging.

 
   
Made in us
Water-Caste Negotiator




Thanks for all the help so far, just played a game with em and he basically had 4 dreadnoughts a death squad coming out of a deep-striking landraider (5 termies, 2 sanguinary priests, and 2 hq of death). only thing I had problems with was when he came out of the landraider and proceeded to wreck my entire army (still technically a draw as I had 1 hh when the game ended and he can't really hold objectives).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, why are kroot so competitive? Id think id rather spend the points on a better gun battery...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/07/05 08:04:38


If Bruce Lee is advocate and does kick someone between the legs in a fight, why would I be to good to do it?

My fighting style: Hit em hard, hit em fast, hit em where it hurts, hit em where they can't see you or hit back.

It's funny how everyone wants their opponent list to be fun to play against and yet their own playlists are often tough as nails and impossible to modify.-Q'iq'el on ATT
 
   
Made in us
Shas'la with Pulse Carbine




Levittown, NY

Kroot are competitive due to the relatively weak fire warrior.

Blood Angels are the worst match up against Tau, very fast army, 3+/FNP makes massed str 5 weapons nearly useless, and they excel in CC where the Tau have their biggest weakness.

40K: The game where bringing a knife to a gun fight means you win.

2000 Orks
1500 Tau 
   
Made in us
Water-Caste Negotiator




Kroot Loops wrote:Kroot are competitive due to the relatively weak fire warrior.


But they cost more, wouldn't it be better to take some pathfinders and stick the fire warriors in the DF until they need to hold an objective? Doesn't that give me more points to do something else? And how do you guys feel about Hammerhead vs. Broadsides?

If Bruce Lee is advocate and does kick someone between the legs in a fight, why would I be to good to do it?

My fighting style: Hit em hard, hit em fast, hit em where it hurts, hit em where they can't see you or hit back.

It's funny how everyone wants their opponent list to be fun to play against and yet their own playlists are often tough as nails and impossible to modify.-Q'iq'el on ATT
 
   
Made in gb
Chaplain with Hate to Spare





The eye of the storm

the weasel king wrote:
Kroot Loops wrote:Kroot are competitive due to the relatively weak fire warrior.


But they cost more, wouldn't it be better to take some pathfinders and stick the fire warriors in the DF until they need to hold an objective? Doesn't that give me more points to do something else? And how do you guys feel about Hammerhead vs. Broadsides?


I'm no tau expert, but Hammerheads are much better because of their ability to adapt to the situation. Sure, in a 1k or more Tau list (if I ever build a Tau army) I'd never leave home without atleast 1 unit of 3 broadsides, regardless of how many hammerheads I have.

Also, I think that depending on the battlefield, either Tau armies or enemy armies can get a lot of benefits - Tau, far away in high cover, is not fun to run up against, especially in a terrain-heavy board.

Unfortunately, Tau just aren't that great in 5th. But like any army, it's the competance of the commander, and how the dice fall, that really matter.

   
Made in us
Daemonic Dreadnought






Jayden63 wrote:Sadly the only real competitive list for Tau looks something like this.

6-9 crisis suits
4-6 broadsides
1-2 - hammerheads
6 firewarriors in D-fish
20-40 kroot + hounds (to make bubbles)
2-4 pirahna as speed bumps.

Because of Jump shoot Jump with proper placement of kroot and suits, you can have the suits move out of the kroot bubble to get clean shots, then move them back behind the kroot to get the cover saves.

Also the kroot bubble can keep infiltrators and DS away from your suits as well.


Good luck with 2 troops at tournaments where holding the objectives is a requirement for a massacre, and tabling the opponent will only result in a major victory.

Fire warriors can embark on a D-Fish even if it doesn't belong to them. Pathfinders are going to die, but they can do so while in a 4+ cover save and fire warriors can embark in their D-Fish after the game starts. You NEED more than 2 troops in tournament objective based games, which is one of the major reasons why 5th ed is so cruel to Tau, and Tau are a rare sight in serious tournament play.

Chaos isn’t a pit. Chaos is a ladder. Many who try to climb it fail, and never get to try again. The fall breaks them. And some are given a chance to climb, but refuse. They cling to the realm, or love, or the gods…illusions. Only the ladder is real. The climb is all there is, but they’ll never know this. Not until it’s too late.


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




St. George, UT

Tau never do well in tournaments anymore. Also one unit of firewarriors and 40 kroot can be 5 scoring troop choices, so its not hard to get the initial numbers. Its just requires some luck to keep them on the table by the end of the game.

See pics of my Orks, Tau, Emperor's Children, Necrons, Space Wolves, and Dark Eldar here:


 
   
Made in us
Charing Cold One Knight




Lafayette, IN

the weasel king wrote:But they cost more, wouldn't it be better to take some pathfinders and stick the fire warriors in the DF until they need to hold an objective? Doesn't that give me more points to do something else? And how do you guys feel about Hammerhead vs. Broadsides?


Yeah, sure, you take the pathfinders transport for the fire warriors, and only use the FW to go for objectives. Still means you need two good sized kroot squads with hounds.

About the Hammerheads vs broadsides: Take both, you will want 2 of one and 1 on the other. At higher points I would say 2 units of Broadsides, since more points equals more tanks.

 
   
Made in us
Raging-on-the-Inside Blood Angel Sergeant




Ohio

Tau are good in 5th - you just have to know how to use them. Pathfinders are a must. Piranha's are great for blocking movement and being a real pain to the opponent while being cheap for you. Hammerheads give you great anti-horde at long range (or just massive amounts of wounds for any army bunched up). Broadsides with target lock will give you one unit able to target multiple vehicles.

For troops - 2 units fire warriors and 2 unit Kroot is usually a good mix for me at 1850. Kroot infiltrating and outflanking are great. It gives you tons of options. Also against rear armor of most vehicles you can manage to glance a vehicle to death. Even just stunning or shaking it gives you something for basically nothing.

Crisis suits fill in your roles of anti-transport and anti-TEq. Twin linked missile pods on suits works great for popping vehicles. Fusion + Plasma works great for MCs and Termies.

Commander can back up just about any squad but CIB with the AFP gives great anti-horde with a random punch.

I've not sure about sniper drones. Some people say they work great but I dont have them or any experience with them. Stealth Marker Teams are also useful but usually on the expensive side of things. Points are better spent elsewhere.

5000+ Points
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3500+ Points
2000+ Points
Cleveland Penny Pincher 
   
Made in us
Fireknife Shas'el




All over the U.S.

@Weasel King- I'm going to go through and address Notabots post line by line, because while much is sound some small bits are down right absurd and overall he makes to many assumptions based off of a flawed tactical philosophy. Also, if I think it is our responsibillity to help you to save money by only recommending the needed units to update your army.

notabot187 wrote: Kroot are important. Sure they don't look like much, but they are the green bubble wrap that keeps your army safe.


First line should have been this question,"@Weasel King, What level of play are you looking to engage in?" and then quickly followed by a,"What do you have in yout army?". Knowing this will help us to give you cost efficient suggestions.

Also, The advice completely ignores the kroot as an offensive unit and is a statement made from the school of attrition warfare, which is something to be avoided. Now,having said such, I will point out that the Kroot-wrapping is an old tactic from 4th ed so you should be familiar with it.


notabot187 wrote: Don't go with devil fish spam, mech is good, but devil fish are too expensive to bring, and don't have much fire power.


Again Notabot makes an assumption here as opposed to asking what the OP's goals and preffered play style are. Devilfish Spam can work when each are loaded with Seekers and there are the right number of marker units.

Now,I will agree that redundancy is better than spamming


notabot187 wrote: Take pirahna, they block the enemies movement, and can be equipt to deal damage to mechanized units.


This statement has you paying 140 minimun to 300-400 maximum for a line blocker. This illustrates the problem with the dogmatic cookie cutter approach to list building. You will spend points on units and fail to use them to their fullest potential if you take statements like these as gospel. The first Piranhas have a variety of uses but the primary one is as a fast striking unit that remove priotity threats early to mid-game. You can drop your drones off to be bubble wrap/line blockers if need be while the drones are offensive or you can equip your piranha with fusion blasters and seeker missiles, hold them in reserve and when they come in your run them 24" to angle for the back armour shot with the seekers while giving the piranha a coversave.

There are different ways to use these effectively, Some are just more aggressive than others.


notabot187 wrote: Marker lights are your friend, but dont' take more than you need (a smallish squad of pathfinders is all you need)


While not bad advice, this statement assumes that you are going to run his list as opposed to your own personal list made to fit your personal playstyle. Some people run two units, some run one and some run no pathfinders and all can be run successfully.


notabot187 wrote: Don't take more fire warriors than you need to. The ones you do have to take, put in a devil fish and keep them safe.


Fire Warriors are better than a lot of people give them credit for. I find it funny that the same people who bash the FW's will praise the Dire avengers whe both use the same tactic of hop out of the transport and hose the unit on the objective down. It isn't that the Fire Warriors that are so much of a problem as it is people failure to cordinate their fire and problems inherent within the devilfish's lack of speed and firepower unless extra points are spent upon the already expensive transport.

(edited to clarify statement)

notabot187 wrote: Don't be tempted into bad suite configurations. Most of them are bad, I recommend only missile pods and plasma for weapons.


IMO,This is where the advice gets a bit absurd. There are several very effective configurations with each depending upon your personal playstyle. I can't recommend a configuation because I have no idea as to what your prefferred build type is.
(Edit to add this clarifying note that I consider the concept of only one battlesuit load out being effective as absurd. Not notabot himself)

notabot187 wrote: Broadsides and hammer heads for your heavy support. 2 slots of one, and 1 of the other. Which particular ratio, is personal preference.


This would be sound advice except that it ignores the Farsight bomb list and a couple of Piranha feeding frenzy lists. Again, need to know what type list your looking to play. I would suggest that you lurk over at Advanced Tau Tactica and maybe do a search on Tau tactic theads here at Dakka.

(Edit to add this clarifying sentence that I am suggesting for "the weasel king"to visit ATT)


notabot187 wrote: No matter what people tell you, the ninja tau tactic (I think the war gear is called positional relay, book not in front of me) is NOT good. Sure it will kill a Newb or scrub, but its not a serious tactic.


IMO,This statement right here jepoardizes any credibility notabot might have. Ninja Tau is effective but not when used dogmatically by unimaginative individuals. It should never be used as an always on tactic, but rather as a tactic that emphasizes tactical flexibility. The Posi-relay is the best 15 points you can spend in your army when used to adapt your deployment and army to your opponents. Even if you use it to only call in one much needed unit on turn 2 or turn 3. This is a tool that lets youset the tempo of the battle when properly used.

If you go back over tourney results where this has been used by people that know what they are doing you will see the primary problem with ninja Tau is the temptation to reserve the whole army every game. That is not the way to run ninja Tau, instead you use the posi-relay to be a completely unpredictable headache to your opponent during deployment.
(Edit to note that I said jepoardizes not ruins)


notabot187 wrote: Tau really wants to be fully mech, but the fish of fury list from 4th is obsolete. So that leaves them with semi mech, with heavy crisis suite support. Tau are about the only army that can pull off a hybrid list, and they are quite good at it.


Yes, the Tau are very good at hybrid lists and have been that way since their first codex. You will find that many of your 4th ed list will need tweaking due more to obsolete wargear than to overall army structure. The primary reason why the 4th ed. lists were abandoned was due to obsolete wargear and shifts in the meta-game. Currently, the meta has come back around to where one of my regular 4th edition list would be considered a standard list except for the decoy launchers, Command and control node and the occasional set of sensor spines.

What really changed in 5th ed. isn't so much the list strategy but the tactics employed on the game table.
(Edit to add this clarifying sentence that this statement is intended for the OP who hasn't played since 4th ed)


I hope this helps some. Let us know what style and level of competition you are expecting to play. When we know that then the advice given will be more cost efficient upon your pocket book.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2010/07/09 03:40:44


Officially elevated by St. God of Yams to the rank of Scholar of the Church of the Children of the Eternal Turtle Pie at 11:42:36 PM 05/01/09

If they are too stupid to live, why make them?

In the immortal words of Socrates, I drank what??!

Tau-*****points(You really don't want to know)  
   
Made in au
Fresh-Faced New User






Tau are an excellent army if used correctly but being an older codex suffer from mono-build syndrome if you want to be competitive (the same as Eldar, DE & Witchunters).

This build involves a lot of defense layers (Kroot, Piranhas, Drones, etc.) to keep the rest of the army shooting (Crisis Suits, Railheads, Broadsides) which puts out a lot of firepower. Here's a breakdown of the units used in good Tau lists (which the OP asked for focusedfire). * indicates secondary role.

Defensive units: Kroot, Piranhas (& drones), Devilfish*
Anti-tank: Broadsides, Piranhas*, Hammerheads*, Crisis Suits*
Anti-infantry: Hammerheads, Crisis Suits, Devilfish, Kroot*
Support: Pathfinders

This is looked at in-depth in this article: How To: Applied Tau

   
Made in us
Fireknife Shas'el




All over the U.S.

the weasel king wrote:So I'm pulling my Tau off the shelf (aka the floor of my parents garage) for the first real time since 5th edition. It's been so long I have mostly forgotten the tactics of everything but my 18 rail rifle list... Could anyone offer competitive tactics that are still effective in 5th? (on a side note: my main opponent plays ba at 2k normally, sometimes tank heavy sometimes death company heavy)


Kirby wrote:Tau are an excellent army if used correctly but being an older codex suffer from mono-build syndrome if you want to be competitive (the same as Eldar, DE & Witchunters).

This build involves a lot of defense layers (Kroot, Piranhas, Drones, etc.) to keep the rest of the army shooting (Crisis Suits, Railheads, Broadsides) which puts out a lot of firepower. Here's a breakdown of the units used in good Tau lists (which the OP asked for focusedfire). * indicates secondary role.

Defensive units: Kroot, Piranhas (& drones), Devilfish*
Anti-tank: Broadsides, Piranhas*, Hammerheads*, Crisis Suits*
Anti-infantry: Hammerheads, Crisis Suits, Devilfish, Kroot*
Support: Pathfinders

This is looked at in-depth in this article: How To: Applied Tau



Please reread the OP and the Forum Title. This is not the list forum but the Tactics forum. Also, the OP asked for tactics and so far everyone has worked from dogmatic list "strategies" as opposed to giving him the "tactical" concepts of how to develope those strategies by first determining what he has in his army and what his preffered playstyle is. Basically, all of you are approaching the process backwards and without regards to what the OP might actually have in his army.

As far as suggesting that the OP or I needs to visit a remedial tactics blog, I'd suggest that you and a few others first visit here:http://www.advancedtautactica.com/academy/

@the weasel king-Your list depends upon the tactics you wish to employ, and your list will limit the strategies you may employ. For a few basic concepts, I've run some threads on the subject.

The concepts may be basic but here are the Tactic/Startegy threads that I've had here at Dakka:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/237732.page
-and the newer one that I've neglected due to other projects-
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/291137.page


Officially elevated by St. God of Yams to the rank of Scholar of the Church of the Children of the Eternal Turtle Pie at 11:42:36 PM 05/01/09

If they are too stupid to live, why make them?

In the immortal words of Socrates, I drank what??!

Tau-*****points(You really don't want to know)  
   
Made in au
Adolescent Youth with Potential



Sydney, Australia

Hopefully this will help the weasel king.

Also a look at blocking, which can be used by Piranha, as described by notabot. And this is a tactic... and so is bubble wrapping.

Edit - and since Tau are mono-build* those two tactics will always be used.

Messanger

*meaning they only have one balanced all-comers list

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2010/07/07 03:21:05


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Made in us
Water-Caste Negotiator




Holy cow, I leave my computer for a day and all of a sudden tons of responses one after another.

Where to start... I guess I'll start with

First and foremost, no matter how good they are I think the kroot are losers. I know they might be decent or even required now but I don't like the way they look/feel/play. Might be my loss but I'm sure there's another way to win lol.

focusedfire wrote:What level of play are you looking to engage in?" and then quickly followed by a,"What do you have in yout army?"

I guess the answer to that is twofold. First, I like tournament's but never can get to them and hate painting. I tend to mostly play games with my one friend (Blood Angels power gamer). As for what I have, I have a farsight conversion, 7 suits (I tend to proxy 3 as broadsides till I get around to getting some plasticard for a railgun conversion I found), 5 tanks (any type really), full vespid squad, 15 pathfinders with markerlights, 9 pathfinders with rail rifles, 3 sniper teams, 24 fire warriors, and my friend is gona be getting me some piranhas, fire warriors, tanks, and suits.

Next is my play style. The army I have both had the most fun with and the least luck with is my sniper army (18 rail rifles-3 sniper teams and 3 pathfinder teams, hammerheads, broadsides, and suits loaded out with plasma rifles/fusion blaster combo). Other than that I love the feel of shooting an opponent without risking retribution from a retaliation shot. Oh, and I love me some markerlights .

If there's anything else you need to know just ask , and thanks for all the help!

If Bruce Lee is advocate and does kick someone between the legs in a fight, why would I be to good to do it?

My fighting style: Hit em hard, hit em fast, hit em where it hurts, hit em where they can't see you or hit back.

It's funny how everyone wants their opponent list to be fun to play against and yet their own playlists are often tough as nails and impossible to modify.-Q'iq'el on ATT
 
   
Made in us
Fireknife Shas'el




All over the U.S.

Messanger_of_Death wrote:Hopefully this will help the weasel king.

Also a look at blocking, which can be used by Piranha, as described by notabot. And this is a tactic... and so is bubble wrapping.

Edit - and since Tau are mono-build* those two tactics will always be used.

Messanger

*meaning they only have one balanced all-comers list


Slightly off Topic-
Yay for another trolling attempt by Kirby under another name.

I am humbled , A Kirby/Messenger-of-death tag team of what are obviously the first posts of the same user. Maybe an existing american dakka user bouncing through/hiding behind an Aussie service provider.

BTW, Nice attempt at circumventing the Dakka Policy on politeness by being insult outside of dakka and linking it in to the thread, Thing is, its been done before.

As to the credibilty of all three(Or should I say two or one?) of you. The fact that you claim the Tau is a mono-build in an ever evolving meta-game shows your lack of experience and credibility. Its funny, you guys are like dealing with a special needs class in that I keep giving you the answer but you still don't get where your going wrong.

Here Timmy, let me explain/walk you through it again. How can you tell someone to use models that you don't even know whether they have them or not?

Next, How can you say the Tau are a Mono-build when different builds have been winning tournaments?

You see, It is easy to blog about what you think other people should do and to make cowardly attacks on those that disagree with you on your blog. It is another to stand up and mount a defense of what you say.
Unfortunately, IMO what you are saying is garbage. Not the part about line blocking or bubble wrapping being valid, just the parts about these being the primary uses for these tactics.
IMO, I also consider the stance that the Tau are limited to only one way to build and be used use an utter load of crapola.

You see, I really find all of this amusing seeing as I was one of the early Tau players helped to develope the line blocking tactic in 4th ed and helped change the prevailing negative attitude here at dakka(Tourny players) concerning both Kroot and Piranhas.

Let me put this another way. Look into my dakka history, read through all of the Tau threads that I've been a part of. Find out that unlike the trinity of you I am just as willing to listen and learn as I am to argue a point. After you spend a week or so reading through part of this then think about it as you read what I say currently.

In essence I'm inviting you to stop behaving in a manner that makes you come across as an ass and to instead "lurk more".

Have Fun. Later


On-topic
@ weasel king-let me think about what you've got for a bit. You seem to currently favour an unorthodox build and I want to go through my older lists to see if any might have something good for you.

BTW, my apologies if the debate/argument is a problem.

Will get back to you in a bit.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2010/07/07 06:13:20


Officially elevated by St. God of Yams to the rank of Scholar of the Church of the Children of the Eternal Turtle Pie at 11:42:36 PM 05/01/09

If they are too stupid to live, why make them?

In the immortal words of Socrates, I drank what??!

Tau-*****points(You really don't want to know)  
   
Made in us
Charing Cold One Knight




Lafayette, IN

focusedfire wrote:
Messanger_of_Death wrote:Hopefully this will help the weasel king.

Also a look at blocking, which can be used by Piranha, as described by notabot. And this is a tactic... and so is bubble wrapping.

Edit - and since Tau are mono-build* those two tactics will always be used.

Messanger

*meaning they only have one balanced all-comers list


Slightly off Topic-
Yay for another trolling attempt by Kirby under another name.

I am humbled , A Kirby/Messenger-of-death tag team of what are obviously the first posts of the same user. Maybe an existing american dakka user bouncing through/hiding behind an Aussie service provider.

BTW, Nice attempt at circumventing the Dakka Policy on politeness by being insult outside of dakka and linking it in to the thread, Thing is, its been done before.

As to the credibilty of all three(Or should I say two or one?) of you. The fact that you claim the Tau is a mono-build in an ever evolving meta-game shows your lack of experience and credibility. Its funny, you guys are like dealing with a special needs class in that I keep giving you the answer but you still don't get where your going wrong.

Here Timmy, let me explain/walk you through it again. How can you tell someone to use models that you don't even know whether they have them or not?

Next, How can you say the Tau are a Mono-build when different builds have been winning tournaments?

You see, It is easy to blog about what you think other people should do and to make cowardly attacks on those that disagree with you on your blog. It is another to stand up and mount a defense of what you say.
Unfortunately, IMO what you are saying is garbage. Not the part about line blocking or bubble wrapping being valid valid, just the parts about these being the primary uses for these tactics.
IMP, I also consider the stance that the Tau are limited to only one way to build and be used use an utter load of crapola.

You see, I really find all of this amusing seeing as I was one of the early Tau players helped to develope the line blocking tactic in 4th ed and helped change the prevailing negative attitude here at dakka(Tourny players) concerning both Kroot and Piranhas.

Let me put this another way. Look into my dakka history, read through all of the Tau threads that I've been a part of. Find out that unlike the trinity of you I am just as willing to listen and learn as I am to argue a point. After you spend a week or so reading through part of this then think about it as you read what I say currently.

In essence I'm inviting you to stop behaving in a manner that makes you come across as an ass and to instead "lurk more".

Have Fun. Later


On-topic
@ weasel king-let me think about what you've got for a bit. You seem to currently favour an unorthodox build and I want to go through my older lists to see if any might have something good for you.

BTW, my apologies if the debate/argument is a problem.

Will get back to you in a bit.


That was rather shocking, I rather not get involved in any internet drama over blog wars and what not. Count me out of this.

As for ATT, I don't recommend that site much. Last edition they gave my friend a bunch of bad advice for building his army, and the stuff was just not good at all. He wasn't exactly the best player, but looking over this lists made from there, is just painful (mostly war gear bloat and bad force mix, which is easy to do with tau) There is some good posters there, but its hard to tell the bad from the good. They also tend to do the whole group think too much, which is common in one army only forums.



 
   
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focusedfire wrote:@ weasel king-let me think about what you've got for a bit. You seem to currently favour an unorthodox build and I want to go through my older lists to see if any might have something good for you.

BTW, my apologies if the debate/argument is a problem.

Will get back to you in a bit.


I thank you for the assistance. And as for the arguments, an argument/debate is not only healthy (gets that good ol' blood pumping), but I love reading em from a purely logical point of view and see if one side is making more valid arguments over "I say A and your B is wrong because I say so". You learn a lot not just about what they are saying, but how much they really know about what they are saying. After all, if someone has a large amount of logical fallacies in their argument I tend to take what tactics/advice they give with a grain of salt.

If Bruce Lee is advocate and does kick someone between the legs in a fight, why would I be to good to do it?

My fighting style: Hit em hard, hit em fast, hit em where it hurts, hit em where they can't see you or hit back.

It's funny how everyone wants their opponent list to be fun to play against and yet their own playlists are often tough as nails and impossible to modify.-Q'iq'el on ATT
 
   
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Didn't know MoD was me, dearie me.

@focusedfire; I was unaware that tactics such as blocking and bubble-wrapping to increase your shooting survivability weren't tactics but army list building...woops. & goodjob and touting your post count. Completely agree with notabot187 on ATT.

@the weasel king; if you don't want to include Kroot you're at a disadvantage simply because armies can get in amongst your army much faster. You could model some "counts as" if you wish but without bubble-wrapping Tau don't do well because of the above stated reason.

   
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I know I'm at a disadvantage for no kroot, but I just don't like having savages running amok in a army that's suppose to be technologically advanced (same reason I rarely take my vespid...although I do like 11 s4 ap3 guns)

If Bruce Lee is advocate and does kick someone between the legs in a fight, why would I be to good to do it?

My fighting style: Hit em hard, hit em fast, hit em where it hurts, hit em where they can't see you or hit back.

It's funny how everyone wants their opponent list to be fun to play against and yet their own playlists are often tough as nails and impossible to modify.-Q'iq'el on ATT
 
   
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Charing Cold One Knight




Lafayette, IN

Think British empire, and the kroot as colonial levies.

Just don't let them go all Sepoy on you, and they will be great soldiers.

 
   
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All over the U.S.

notabot187 wrote:

That was rather shocking, I rather not get involved in any internet drama over blog wars and what not. Count me out of this.

As for ATT, I don't recommend that site much. Last edition they gave my friend a bunch of bad advice for building his army, and the stuff was just not good at all. He wasn't exactly the best player, but looking over this lists made from there, is just painful (mostly war gear bloat and bad force mix, which is easy to do with tau) There is some good posters there, but its hard to tell the bad from the good. They also tend to do the whole group think too much, which is common in one army only forums.


Its Cool. Will leave you out.

A far as ATT, they are rather stuffy but buried in their histories are the builds and tactics that their members came up with years ago that are just now catching on with the new players.

I find that a combination of ATT and Dakka will usually get you were you want to go as far as the Tau are concerned. That is if you can stay awake will making it through the ATT site.


BTW, I'd like to point out that I'm not the one hiding behind a self-important blog full of nonsense. I am trying to be polite to what must be a 15 year old with a set of Net nads.

Seriously, I only go there to lurk and delve into the histories to see if anything jumps out at me as possible tactics to pull out of the mothball pile.


Kirby wrote:@focusedfire; I was unaware that tactics such as blocking and bubble-wrapping to increase your shooting survivability weren't tactics but army list building...woops. & goodjob and touting your post count.


Learn to read.

focusedfire wrote:You see, It is easy to blog about what you think other people should do and to make cowardly attacks on those that disagree with you on your blog. It is another to stand up and mount a defense of what you say.
Unfortunately, IMO what you are saying is garbage. Not the part about line blocking or bubble wrapping being valid, just the parts about these being the primary uses for these tactics.
IMO, I also consider the stance that the Tau are limited to only one way to build and be used use an utter load of crapola.


(Please to also note seperate lines for seperate topics) Basic pert of reading comprehension is to notice such.

BTW, Timmy/Jimmy- Your comment about the post count shows that you are more interested in trolling than communicating. If you weren't, you would have recognized it as a comment about content and having the guts to post where people will disagree with you rather than hiding behind a blog. If this is the limit of Aussie courage these days then I am sad for your nation

Also, your jumping to MoD defense gives credence to the theiry that the two of you are the one and the same. Not saying that you are, just that you are giving such an impression.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/07/07 06:10:38


Officially elevated by St. God of Yams to the rank of Scholar of the Church of the Children of the Eternal Turtle Pie at 11:42:36 PM 05/01/09

If they are too stupid to live, why make them?

In the immortal words of Socrates, I drank what??!

Tau-*****points(You really don't want to know)  
   
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@weasel; As notabot187 said, you could think of them differently but if you really wish to not use them you could always use FW in their place. less efficient since they are 3 & 4 pts more expensive than Kroot & hounds but it'll still keep the enemy away from your Crisis suits/broadsides/hammerheads. The upside of this I guess would be having more anti-infantry firepower as well though I'd prefer the cheaper Kroot.

@focusedfire; I was unaware people can't attack me on my blog...they generally seem to attempt to through comments like your own (with admittedly more emo-rage). So let's get down to the quote wars FTW. Minus me quoting. And me ignoring the 'personal attacks' against me and the other people which apparently make up the entity of 'me.'

So the point of my original post was...to point out how effective bubble-wrap and blocking are in keeping a Tau army mobile where it needs tobe and shooting. You are agreeing with me, this is wonderful.

I also said they are an excellent army which I don't see you jumping up and down on so let's assume you agree with me again. 2/2.

The main difference seems to be two-fold:
1) if Tau are a mono-build or not
2) who's making the assumption

I'll look at one below were I reply to your understanding of Tau units but let's look at the 2nd point. You make a lot of allusions to what the OP wants or has, etc. If the OP wants a specific goal or playstyle he should mention it early. Since he said he was after competitive tactics, well you need a competitive list to enact competitive tactics. It doesn't matter how good bubble-wrapping or flanking or blocking or castling or tank shocking or whatever is if you take bouncy balls to a gun fight. Whilst you can do well with a sub-par or medicore list with competitive tactics, by asking for competitive tactics we are going to assume the OP wants a competitive list to go with the tactics. If we are completely off the mark he can correct us. Haven't seen him do that other than say he doesn't want to use Kroot because of their fluff. So...enough of the external attribution.

In your replies to notabot187 you've attempted to reply on how units should be used, so let's look at those and look at why Tau are effectively a mono-build.
1) Kroot -> they can be offensive but their primary role is defensive (said in my post).
2) Devilfish -> Having an army rely on, not be supported by, but rely on markerlights is never a good idea. Your opponent shuts down your markerlight units and your Seeker missiles become useless. To get multiple markerlight units you are also sacrificing Crisis suits (for Stealth teams), Piranhas (for pathfinders, who rock though so it's okay) and Broadsides/Hammerheads (for Skyrays). That seems to be a good list of the best units out there unless you start tacking on marker drones to crisis teams (making them even bigger targets), etc.
3) Piranha -> Here you're going against blocking... Piranha's primary use is blocking (as said in my post) but of course they can be used for other things. I doubt notabot187 is demanding they only be used as blockers.
4) Markerlights -> notabot187 is correct in pointing out don't take more than you need. I too often see lists @ 1500 with 2 PF squads...they run out of guns to ML quickly which appears to be his main point there.
5) FW -> can't say I've ever praised DA jumping out of their transport. Jumping out of your transport is generally a bad idea unless you're a combat unit (i.e. TH/SS termies), are forced to due to wreckage, last ditch shooting efforts, etc. FWs do nothing the rest of the Tau army can't do (S5 spam), are rather expensive for what they do and die rather easily. I also like how you say DFish have problems yet you promoted a DFish army before.
6) Crisis suits -> Playstyle: competitive. Effective suit build: PR/MP/MT. 6-12 S6+ shots for <200pts.
7) Farsight -> not competitive in any sense of the word; you have minimal redundency (yet you said it was good before, too) due to an egg basket unit which is terrible in combat.
8) Ninja Tau -> correct in pointing out you shouldn't always Ninja...but Ninjaing is pointless. Why would I make my shooty army, shoot less? I can control the 'tempo of the game' with my defensive units anyway.
9) Hybrid Tau -> tick.

When you start deviating outside of PR/MP Crisis, min-FW in Fish, Kroot layers, Piranhas, PF, Broadsides & Hammerheads you lose efficiency. Whether it's firepower or defensive abilities Tau really can't operate well outside of this build because of their poor unit choices elsewhere (i.e. Ethereal, SCs, Skyray, Stealths, FW, Krootox, etc.).



This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/07/07 06:38:40


   
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Kirby wrote:@weasel; As notabot187 said, you could think of them differently but if you really wish to not use them you could always use FW in their place. less efficient since they are 3 & 4 pts more expensive than Kroot & hounds but it'll still keep the enemy away from your Crisis suits/broadsides/hammerheads. The upside of this I guess would be having more anti-infantry firepower as well though I'd prefer the cheaper Kroot.


Looking at my codex a team of 6-12 fw with a leader with bonding knife is 75-135pts while a team of 10-20 kroot are 70-140pts not counting any hounds or riders. Seems they average out to be about the same maybe a bit more in favor of the fw squad if larger squads need to be taken. Am I off the ball here somewhere thinking that either or will work about the same it just requires playing a bit differently?

If Bruce Lee is advocate and does kick someone between the legs in a fight, why would I be to good to do it?

My fighting style: Hit em hard, hit em fast, hit em where it hurts, hit em where they can't see you or hit back.

It's funny how everyone wants their opponent list to be fun to play against and yet their own playlists are often tough as nails and impossible to modify.-Q'iq'el on ATT
 
   
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Charing Cold One Knight




Lafayette, IN

Kroot can have infiltrate. Plus they are usually more of a speed bump than fire warriors. Kroot can at least damage the enemy, fire warriors lose in combat to just about anything.

 
   
 
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