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Are any of them worth their points outside of "fun" lists?

Calgar is absolutely woth his points. 5 power fist attacks without charging or alternatively 4 power weapon attacks. AP 2 bolters obital bombardment all that can be rerolled because of god of war. He is basically almost an unstoppable killing machine. Furthermore the ability to choose whether or not to fail or pass any leadership test is just fantastic. I can't begin to describe how tactically flexible an ability like that really is. auto fail when an enemy is about ot charge auto pass at the end of a combat ohase you lost during your turn denying the enemy any options. He is totally worth his point, as for the other ones Im' not so sure but calgar is fantastic.

Cassius is an absolute beast. If you don't know which HQ to pick up, get him instead. He shoots, he chops, he has the toughness and armor save of a Carnifex, but has an invulnerable save too which makes him better.

The tank driver is fairly lack luster, because when he hops out of the tank he gives up another kill-point.

Telion is great. He gives everyone stealth, saving you points on Camocloaks. BS6 Heavy Bolters that wound 2+ (all Scout Heavy Bolters come with Hellfire rounds) are a great way to put wounds on tough squads, and his ability to snipe models is always valuable.

Tigirius is ineffecient. He's about 50 points too expensive for how vulnerable he is. However he does bring lots of tools to the army. He is, after all, a Librarian, but now he can use a plethera of powers and he monkeys with your reserve rolls. He can't use more than one shooting power, though, so he is a support unit.

Sicarius is useful, as well. His Rites of Battle gives every unit in your army Ld10, which is very nice when you've combat squadded, and your sergeant can only be in one place.
His wargear is meh, except for the FNP armor. I haven't found a situation where his Coup de Grace attack is worth using.
His ability to grant a veteran skill to one tactical squad is also nice, again, best used when combat squadding. You can take Tank Hunters, combat squad the special and the heavy into separate groups, and hit double the targets. S8 plasmagun? S9 meltagun? S10 lascannon? Yes, please!

I think the opposite, Papa SMurf is pricey so that he only really fits into higher points games.
In which there are better army-wide effects you could go for.

In addition, you have to worry about delivery, else that combat prowess is wasted... this either means more points ontop or an ineffective way of getting him there.

Siccy is a suedo-Calgar, cheaper and allows a tricky Tactical squad, but he's very expensive for such a Jack of All Trades.

Tiggy's re-roll is awesome... but the rest of him is so...(IMO) terrible.

Finally, Cassius is a great option if you are going for a foot Chappy already...but there is some waste on him.

I would call them all 'fun' characters, but they can hold their own at appropriate points levels.
Though with SM, it's really all about the elites, fast, and heavy support options.

From what I understand (hence starting this thread), UM characters are for fluffy UM armies but don't make it to the competitive lists. Seems a shame if it's true.

I like Sicarius at 2000-2500 points. I used him in both rounds of 'Ard Boyz this year and would be using him in Chicago if I could have gotten the time off to go. The LD10 all around is invaluable in keeping AB squadrons and combat squads on the table and since you don't lose combat tactics, you can still auto-fail in the right situations. The veteran ability is ok, as are his other perks, but Rites of Battle makes him amazing. Well worth the discount from Marneus. I've even used his coup de grace successfully against a Tervigon. Hitting on a 3+ and wounding on a 4+ with no saves is not terrible odds. Its not something you count on, but it gives you options when you're in the late game and have limited resources.

That about sums it up. Calgar can be competitive in a high-point turnament, but the majority of special characters are a little too expensive for what they bring to your army.

The same holds true for the non-Ultramarine characters. Kantor might be nice, but he's armed stupidly for being an IC. Powerfist on an IC gets them killed in combat.
Khan is nice, but takes a crazy amoutn of extra points to field properly, either in the form of Moondrakkan and a Biker Command Squad tooled for combat, or a Land Raider and Assault Terminators. As Sanctjud mentioned with Calgar, it's just too many extra points on other 'stuff' to properly deliver the pain.

Only Vulkan is a competitive choice, and that's because he's dirt cheap, and boosts all the other easily-spammable options in a force without doing a thing.

What about Shrike giving fleet?

It's only really useful on Assault Marines and A.Termies...
Assault marines are pretty lacklustre...

So, basically you are shoe-horned into just Assault Termies. They also need deliver, soooo more points on top of more points...and he doesn't have a posse... so you need points into something to escort Shrike into combat.

And if you play by RAW, then Shrike is quite limited to what he can infiltrate with...etc, etc, etc.

With 'Named' Characters it's a balancing act, you are certainly giving up something with their addition.

Space Marines largely lack good melee infantry. The ones that are good don't really benefit from Fleet (Assault Terminators in a Landraider, Assault Marines would often rather shoot).

So, if you like taking a character, play BA over Raven Guard? Sallies over Smurfs? Never Scars or Fists (any kind)?

Uhh, basically, yeah. Lysander is a rock, but he doesn't add anything to the army. Vulkan is... cheese. Shrike is meh. Getting a Biker army is a toss up between a Captain and Khan. Pedro is for those who love Sternguard a little too much. Sicarious is good, but he makes you play with a heavy helping of Tactical Marines which some consider bad.

Why do you need to play a named Chapter?
You can just use the rules set and model and paint/convert it to a DIY Chapter/Legion...

I genuinely like the background. The closest thing to a DIY chapter I ever dreamt up was an Iron Hands successor with a red scheme, as I have always wanted a red army.

Tigurius and Calgar are amazing, honestly. Although, I had calgar in a unit of 5 other termninators, and they lost in assault to a hive tyrant and 2 tyrant guard....So maybe he isn't that good.


I encourage the use of all of them, the're all great fun

Sanctjud wrote:I think the opposite, Papa SMurf is pricey so that he only really fits into higher points games.
In which there are better army-wide effects you could go for.

I agree- but i have a friend who plays UM, we only ever play 1-2k, and TBH I have troubles with the sucker at time- especially those AP2 boltguns *shudder*. MEQ's squeal in terror as a rain of superbolter shells take out their comrades before they get hit by a shower of powerfists

Manchu
it looks like youre getting some pretty good advice. My take is: Lysander, Vulkan and Khan are in Cato and Shrike are out as far as the others I couldnt really say.

Personally I go back and forth on Tigerius. Hes too expensive for what he is and he isnt much of a close combat fighter but bc he brings a psychic hood every power and the ability to control your reserves he adds alot of flexibility to the force. hes probably a no if were being serious but he could have been soooo good....
AF

DarkHound wrote:
Telion is great. He gives everyone stealth, saving you points on Camocloaks.

Since when do upgrade characters grant their USRs to their squads? Last time I checked there was no rule stating that they did and the only ruling I can think about is Arjac's stubborn not going to his squad since he's not an IC.

No, most powers don't. However Stealth affects the whole squad if one person has it, because of some very specific wording in the Stealth rule.

DarkHound wrote:No, most powers don't. However Stealth affects the whole squad if one person has it, because of some very specific wording in the Stealth rule.

Are you referring to the word "All" which is used to describe the cover saves from all possible sources? That misconception is not nearly enough to cause a power to be applied to all members of the squad. There is no rule that says upgrade characters convey their USRs to their squad. Not with stealth or any of them unless the upgrade character's entry specifically says it.

Sorry to hijack the thread just wanted to point out a glaring incorrect statement.

If it said, "All of the model's cover saves are improved by +1" then I'd agree with you. However, it says "All of the unit's cover saves are improved by +1." Telion is in a unit. Telion has Stealth. All of Telion's unit's cover saves are improved by +1. He doesn't have to share his USR. He's the only model in the unit with Stealth, but because of the wording the whole unit gets +1 to its cover saves.

DarkHound wrote: BS6 Heavy Bolters that wound 2+ (all Scout Heavy Bolters come with Hellfire rounds) are a great way to put wounds on tough squads, and his ability to snipe models is always valuable.

Just wanted to point out, that the scout heavy bolters don't come with hellfire rounds. They come with hellfire shells wich are a very different thing. (It's a blast weapon)

DarkHound wrote:If it said, "All of the model's cover saves are improved by +1" then I'd agree with you. However, it says "All of the unit's cover saves are improved by +1." Telion is in a unit. Telion has Stealth. All of Telion's unit's cover saves are improved by +1. He doesn't have to share his USR. He's the only model in the unit with Stealth, but because of the wording the whole unit gets +1 to its cover saves.

The 'all' is referring to the cover saves not the unit in that sentence. It's saying that whichever cover save you get either from area terrain, interposed models, barricades, etc they are all increased by +1. The USR are written with the understanding that they apply to complete units. The reason Telion has stealth is so he fits in when give the squad camo cloaks since you can't give him one.

Please... if you need to discuss rules, please use the search function and look it up in the YMDC.

RAW is like that sometimes.

Otherwise, move on.

I have had alot of luck with Vulkan. But again it really only shines with TH/SS termies and lots of meltas and flamey goodness

* Damn it

Boyofdestiny205 wrote:I have had alot of luck with Vulkan. But again it really only shines with TH/SS termies and lots of meltas and flamey goodness

Not to be rude, but you are missing a smiley face somewhere near the end of your post...which makes me respond to it with a: DUH!

This point came up in another thread: assuming that Telion's unit of Scouts gets a cover save bonus as long as he's alive, he nearly pays for himself in camo cloaks you didn't have to buy--as long as you are taking a ten-man Scout squad. I don't know that anyone would take such a gaggle of Scouts but if you do, paint them blue, and put Telion in charge of them.