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Saying "if you don't use those rules the rule discrepancies don't matter" if at the same time self evident, irrelevant and disingenuous.
Sometimes when a new rulebook is printed it includes a change to a previous rule. No one is saying it doesn't matter. I'm saying that reconciling the difference, if needed at all, in this particular case is not a Herculean task and does not make this an entirely new game like others might have you believe.
Maybe dropping in on that one sentence out of the full context you can say it's disingenuous, but on the topic of whether or not this is a reasonable starter with functional and complete core gameplay rules that will remain useful, and in the scheme of such a goal, it isn't at all.
No one is going be unable to play with other people just because of these minor differences. Conflicts in the basic rules can be resolved easily by agreement.
So instead of saying "OMG the sky s f'ing falling, they changed the Reinforcements rule!", how about "Hey everyone, the Reinforcement rule in Hive War is different so you might want to figure out which version you want to use if you play a scenario with reinforcements."
See how one helps people and the other spreads angst?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/18 14:02:08
ohreally wrote: The Rulebook + Gangs of the Underhive will give you the experience you're looking for. Hive war did not change the core rules of the game. Cyber Mastiffs are in GotU.
It is "the Rulebook" and together with GotU it makes a complete game system. All the other books are just optional addons.
Indeed, I'm recommending this or the Hardback Rulebook for new starters. Got a few people who've picked Hive War up now to dip their toes in. Told them all they need is a rulebook or Hive War and their chosen gangs House Of... book and I'll arbitrate the rest as needed. Job done, can't see anything in here that confuses matters.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/18 14:28:06
ohreally wrote: So instead of saying "OMG the sky s f'ing falling, they changed the Reinforcements rule!", how about "Hey everyone, the Reinforcement rule in Hive War is different so you might want to figure out which version you want to use if you play a scenario with reinforcements."
See how one helps people and the other spreads angst?
As an old gamer and having been about a foot from buying the new necro core, this line of reasoning is not something that would encourage me to get the game. Needing another player to tell me that rules with the same name as a core rule, in the starter game I've been hypothetically learning the rules on, is not the same as in the core book, would be exasperating. Not having that veteran player (say, if my group were getting in because of a new starter game) would be even more frustrating, if I ever noticed or if, say, the group shared a starter rulebook and a core.
Saying "if you don't use those rules the rule discrepancies don't matter" if at the same time self evident, irrelevant and disingenuous.
Sometimes when a new rulebook is printed it includes a change to a previous rule. No one is saying it doesn't matter. I'm saying that reconciling the difference, if needed at all, in this particular case is not a Herculean task and does not make this an entirely new game like others might have you believe.
Maybe dropping in on that one sentence out of the full context you can say it's disingenuous, but on the topic of whether or not this is a reasonable starter with functional and complete core gameplay rules that will remain useful, and in the scheme of such a goal, it isn't at all.
No one is going be unable to play with other people just because of these minor differences. Conflicts in the basic rules can be resolved easily by agreement.
So instead of saying "OMG the sky s f'ing falling, they changed the Reinforcements rule!", how about "Hey everyone, the Reinforcement rule in Hive War is different so you might want to figure out which version you want to use if you play a scenario with reinforcements."
See how one helps people and the other spreads angst?
Yeah, but see... from my POV, it helps even more saying "Hey everyone, I still have the original rulebooks that we can use, and it has all the campaign rules and everything!", and you need to worry no more ever again.
Simply put, GW has released like five version of the core rules, most with no campaign rules or very limited ones, a feth ton of "army lists" for a game for which the actual army lists matter little (we're in for the emergent gameplay and storyline) and mostly made a mess of it all, and they haven't even managed to add the errata they already had to the newer books... so, yeah.
As an old gamer and having been about a foot from buying the new necro core, this line of reasoning is not something that would encourage me to get the game. Needing another player to tell me that rules with the same name as a core rule, in the starter game I've been hypothetically learning the rules on, is not the same as in the core book, would be exasperating. Not having that veteran player (say, if my group were getting in because of a new starter game) would be even more frustrating, if I ever noticed or if, say, the group shared a starter rulebook and a core.
Fair enough, but "Reinforcements" isn't a "core rule". It's a scenario rule. Are there currently two different versions at the moment? Yes but it's not going to break the game if you play with one or the other as long as both players are using the same one. It's one of those rules you usually learn when you play a scenario that uses it for the first time and plenty of scenarios that do use it change it anyway.
There is one core rule difference related to when Cool Checks are made for Fleeing the Battlefield. That's it. That's the big SCARY NEW RULE. It's been referenced across the last 4 House books though so we all expected it to change (because it's better) and we also expect a new errata sometime in the future because there are two more House books coming out. A lot of people are already playing with the rules change.
Right now we don't have an updated errata since Hive War was released. The hope is that by the time someone who buys Hive War is actually playing with other people who aren't is that a new Errata will be out to address these minor discrepancies.
Hive War is the best place to start if you're on your own. If you have a group you're integrating with you should talk to them but even so Hive War is still more than fine because it's 99.9% the same. (Not a real percentage).
Yeah, but see... from my POV, it helps even more saying "Hey everyone, I still have the original rulebooks that we can use, and it has all the campaign rules and everything!", and you need to worry no more ever again.
That's great! Anyone joining you is lucky. Hive War isn't for you or those people who may hypothetically join you. It's for people who don't have a group.
If one of your friends were to buy Hive War would you ostracize them and browbeat them about having made a "mistake". I think not.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/18 14:56:40
Sabotage! wrote: My disappointment is that there isn’t “the rulebook” for this game.
I would much prefer a single book with a basic campaign, basic trading post, basic gang lists (juves, gangers, champions, and leader) and the core rules.
The Rulebook + Gangs of the Underhive will give you the experience you're looking for. Hive war did not change the core rules of the game. Cyber Mastiffs are in GotU.
It is "the Rulebook" and together with GotU it makes a complete game system. All the other books are just optional addons.
This is actually super helpful, I appreciate the response. I think that’s the route I will go! Thanks!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/18 17:52:38
Yeah, but see... from my POV, it helps even more saying "Hey everyone, I still have the original rulebooks that we can use, and it has all the campaign rules and everything!", and you need to worry no more ever again.
That's great! Anyone joining you is lucky. Hive War isn't for you or those people who may hypothetically join you. It's for people who don't have a group.
If one of your friends were to buy Hive War would you ostracize them and browbeat them about having made a "mistake". I think not.
Way to misrepresent the issue there, buster. No, I would not "ostracize" or "browbeat" anyone who wanted to buy Hive War. I would just lend them my Newcromunda rulebooks (the core and the first 5 supplements) on the one side, and my old necromunda book on the other, and let them decide what they like better, while at the same time I'd still give them my opinion.
But I wouldn't let them ostracize or browbeat me into playing something I don't want either, you know. It's kind of a two way street.
Way to misrepresent the issue there, buster. No, I would not "ostracize" or "browbeat" anyone who wanted to buy Hive War.
But I wouldn't let them ostracize or browbeat me into playing something I don't want either, you know. It's kind of a two way street.
Good! I didn't think you would, I even said "I think not." at the end there. Meaning, no one would do that because it would be ridiculous.
I think you're mad at me because I think there's more than one way to skin this cat. Or maybe you're bitter because you prefer the 95 edition (which was tons of fun!). I don't really know what you're getting at this point. You can introduce people to Necromunda however you like.
I still think Hive War is a fine way to start, especially if you don't have Ratskin Guide in your gaming group already.
Way to misrepresent the issue there, buster. No, I would not "ostracize" or "browbeat" anyone who wanted to buy Hive War.
But I wouldn't let them ostracize or browbeat me into playing something I don't want either, you know. It's kind of a two way street.
Good! I didn't think you would, I even said "I think not." at the end there. Meaning, no one would do that because it would be ridiculous.
I think you're mad at me because I think there's more than one way to skin this cat. Or maybe you're bitter because you prefer the 95 edition (which was tons of fun!). I don't really know what you're getting at this point. You can introduce people to Necromunda however you like.
I still think Hive War is a fine way to start, especially if you don't have Ratskin Guide in your gaming group already.
Happy gaming!
Nah man, I'm not mad, be it at you or at anything else. I'm just kind of tired of having words put in my mouth.
As to Newcromunda, I don't particularly like the direction it's taking, no, but the real problems with it are the supplement treadmill and the lack of cohesiveness of the rules.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/18 19:19:00
Nah man, I'm not mad, be it at you or at anything else. I'm just kind of tired of having words put in my mouth.
As to Newcromunda, I don't particularly like the direction it's taking, no, but the real problems with it are the supplement treadmill and the lack of cohesiveness of the rules.
Well I apologize. I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth at all!
I get that a lot of people don't like the direction but even if you prefer the 95 rules set at least we're getting tons of cool looking models to play that or Inq28.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/18 19:29:18
Just because GW doesn’t do something, doesn’t mean it isn’t done. Most games follow that pattern. And GW hasn’t always been like that. Mordheim in my opinion, is the most fun game GW ever produced. Complete game in one book. Want optional material? Cool, get some Town Criers or Empire in Flames.
As great as it was I definitely wouldn't elevate Mordheim as any sort of ideal by 2021 standards.
- printing out and carrying optional rules sucked, I'd rather have a 2nd rulebook (although when you get a 3rd, 4th and 5th rulebook I begin to think otherwise)
- Mordheim was, ultimately, pretty small. I had amazing fun playing it, but after multiple campaigns over a 5-10 year period I'd basically seen everything... I'd tried every build for my warbands... hired every helped I could... I had an answer for every scenario or opponent... pretty much all the variety and surprise was washed out of the game. By comparison, Newcromunda has absolutely insane depth and variety. For example, I bet the average player hasn't tried more than 5% of the available scenarios.
Just out of curiosity, since the subject seems to be getting discussed, but which ones are the current rule books again? (other than obvious 'House of' books)
Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
BaronIveagh wrote: Just out of curiosity, since the subject seems to be getting discussed, but which ones are the current rule books again? (other than obvious 'House of' books)
1. Game Rules (Hardcover Rulebook, Dark Uprising, Hive War)
2. Campaign Rules (Hardcover Rulebook (Dominion), Book of Judgement (Law and Misrule), Dark Uprising (Uprising))
3. Gang Rules
Cawdor - House of Faith* (or GotU for basic gangs)
Delaque - House of Shadow* (or GotU for basic gangs)
Escher - House of Blades (or GotU for basic gangs)
Goliath - House of Chains (or GotU for basic gangs)
Orlock - House of Iron (or GotU for basic gangs)
Van Saar - House of Artifice (or GotU for basic gangs)
Palanite Enforcers - Book of Judgement or Dark Uprising
Corpse Grinders - Book of Ruin or Dark Uprising
Genestealer Cults - Book of Ruin
Helot Chaos Cults - Book of Ruin
Slave Ogryns - House of Chains
Venators - Book of Peril
Altruizine wrote: Doesn't that list omit access to Trading Post listings (isn't it in GotU?)?
The main trading post is only in Gangs of the Underhive but most weapons and wargear from the original game are on the different gang lists in the House books anyway. The trading post is also updated with new stuff in several books and the Book of Judgement has the black market. There's even a Badzone trading post entry in the Book of Peril.
The Uprising campaign doesn't even use the trading post (although you can if you want).
I consider the trading post optional, but if you don't, then right now you need GotU. At one point when House of Chains was released Andy Hoare said they'd like the make the trading post a living document. So going forward we have no idea how that will be handled.
Right now House weapon lists are mostly what has plastic or resin parts for that gang, and the Trading Post is where you buy things you want to Kitbash.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/18 20:44:18
Nah man, I'm not mad, be it at you or at anything else. I'm just kind of tired of having words put in my mouth.
As to Newcromunda, I don't particularly like the direction it's taking, no, but the real problems with it are the supplement treadmill and the lack of cohesiveness of the rules.
Well I apologize. I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth at all!
I get that a lot of people don't like the direction but even if you prefer the 95 rules set at least we're getting tons of cool looking models to play that or Inq28.
Well, no arguments from me there, for sure! Some of the choices have been less than stellar (Escher, Golio and Orlock [and maybe Delaque] main sprues are much better thought out than Cawdor and Van Saar, the extra sprues range from good to pointless, FW minis at FW prices... well, there's a lot xD), but there's very cool stuff there.
Altruizine wrote: Doesn't that list omit access to Trading Post listings (isn't it in GotU?)?
There are different Trading Posts, depending on where you play by Gang, up and into the point of a dwindling failing one. Each books is different, but you can swap them around, the idea being that you use a "Trading Post".
Another way is to make up your own per local flavor. You can add in IG gear, a couple of bolters, etc.. depending on how you have your group, each one can pool in some of their choices of equipment, then your trader can have a few of his/ her own troops and set the prices.
At Games Workshop, we believe that how you behave does matter. We believe this so strongly that we have written it down in the Games Workshop Book. There is a section in the book where we talk about the values we expect all staff to demonstrate in their working lives. These values are Lawyers, Guns and Money.
The list of all the changes in the Hive War book wasn't meant as a critique of each individual change. I see Reinforcements was mentioned several times here. Yes, Reinforcements is changed and simplified for the Hive War demo version. That's not necessarily a bad thing (nor a particular good thing). It is what it is. So it's easy to break apart each individual piece. My point is that the sum of it all makes each rulebook a different version of the game.
Also when discussing rules, I am not aware of how to classify different rules. So I may mention 'core rules' which others would describe as 'terrain rules'. So maybe I was mistaken in classifying "closing a door" as core rule instead of terrain rule?
In addition, my list of changes was made comparing to the total sum of all updated rules before the Hive War book. If you compare Hive War to for example N18 (Rulebook + GotU), then there will be even more differences and changes.
Baxx wrote: My point is that the sum of it all makes each rulebook a different version of the game.
And strictly speaking you're correct. Even the smallest change would warrant a version change in something like a program. But you keep incrementing the rules like it's wholly new edition.
So calling it N21 like you do is misleading to a new player. It's really a very minor update, like N18.2 or something.
I would love to see a range of outposts, with various different options, rarities, and even prices, to reflect particular areas. Also hiring options. Nothing toooo drastic, but just to add a little more uncertainty to things.
Having to pick one trading post with limited options after each game would be cool. Just as long as you can't turn it into some sort of merchant board game where you buy truckloads of shotguns at place A and sell them at a profit next game at place B.
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lord_blackfang wrote: Having to pick one trading post with limited options after each game would be cool. Just as long as you can't turn it into some sort of merchant board game where you buy truckloads of shotguns at place A and sell them at a profit next game at place B.
And strictly speaking you're correct. Even the smallest change would warrant a version change in something like a program. But you keep incrementing the rules like it's wholly new edition.
So calling it N21 like you do is misleading to a new player. It's really a very minor update, like N18.2 or something.
Yeah the thing is, if it was just one small change, I wouldn't even notice, let alone care. The reason I do notice is because the changes between all the books are both big and small and counts up to the hundreds. There's a new fan made "how to play" video, notice how it mentions -1 hit modifier in close combat to attack over barricades: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztbLJXNpQYM That's one of many things that changed (probably unintentionally) after the 2017 rulebook and has been omitted ever since. People ask about these sort of things weekly if not daily. "Where is rules for X?" Then these changes start to matter.
PS: This is not a critique of the video, it seems like a good intro for new players, but is used here as an example of having too many books with too many discrepancies.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2021/05/22 23:29:39
lord_blackfang wrote: Having to pick one trading post with limited options after each game would be cool. Just as long as you can't turn it into some sort of merchant board game where you buy truckloads of shotguns at place A and sell them at a profit next game at place B.
Definitely seems like something the Enforcers would be interested in (stopping) too. Illegal gun running is one thing, but doing it on the sly, where the Precinct Captain can’t take their cut? That’s just rude.
"Three months? I'm going to go crazy …and I'm taking you with me!"
— Vala Mal Doran
Actually makes me wonder why Necromunda isn't a board game where battles happen when two (or more) players end up in the same sector/resource. It would mean the campaign is front and centre and the battles either something to avoid or maneuver into. One part Diplomancy, one part Warhammer.
