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Gadzilla666 wrote: Could be either, maybe the extra wound is to add some durability without the special rules that Death Guard and Thousand Sons have (Disgustingly Resilient, All is Dust), and the extra attack is to make the CSM Sorcerer more "fighty" than the more psychically powerful Thousand Sons, and tougher Death Guard Sorcerers. Or, it's just codex creep.
'All is Dust' doesn't apply to characters, just Rubricae and Terminators.
Really? I stand corrected. My apologies to Thousand Sons players.
Does anyone know if the rule stating that you can only have one Lord Discordant means that you can have only one per battalion or just one in the entire army?
ArcaneHorror wrote: Does anyone know if the rule stating that you can only have one Lord Discordant means that you can have only one per battalion or just one in the entire army?
Those rules have been by detachment, not by army. Presumably it'll also block lords. And then Daemon Princes will also have a similar rule (I doubt they'll block taking a lord+DP).
ArcaneHorror wrote: Does anyone know if the rule stating that you can only have one Lord Discordant means that you can have only one per battalion or just one in the entire army?
Those rules have been by detachment, not by army. Presumably it'll also block lords. And then Daemon Princes will also have a similar rule (I doubt they'll block taking a lord+DP).
Death guard cannot field a lord and a dp in the same detachment. The rule is called gelosia infernale in italian
ArcaneHorror wrote: Does anyone know if the rule stating that you can only have one Lord Discordant means that you can have only one per battalion or just one in the entire army?
Those rules have been by detachment, not by army. Presumably it'll also block lords. And then Daemon Princes will also have a similar rule (I doubt they'll block taking a lord+DP).
Death guard cannot field a lord and a dp in the same detachment. The rule is called gelosia infernale in italian
To my understanding this was changed in an FAQ as it removed the lord of the Death Guard from the data sheet of the DP
Fwlshadowalker wrote: To my understanding this was changed in an FAQ as it removed the lord of the Death Guard from the data sheet of the DP
Correct. DG can take one prince and one lord per detachment.
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
ArcaneHorror wrote: Does anyone know if the rule stating that you can only have one Lord Discordant means that you can have only one per battalion or just one in the entire army?
Those rules have been by detachment, not by army. Presumably it'll also block lords. And then Daemon Princes will also have a similar rule (I doubt they'll block taking a lord+DP).
Ok that makes sense. It's funny since in 8th edition, it was for a while the meta to take three disco lords or three princes
Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.
Kanluwen wrote: This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.
Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...
tneva82 wrote: You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something...
Gadzilla666 wrote: Aaaannddd.........how much do you want to bet they give it to loyalists, but not Chaos?
Given you've preemptively started to gripe about it, I kinda hope that happens.
I could see a GYB datasheet being Loyalist only, though, only for the Kratos to show up in the CSM 'dex a little later, however.
Meh, just going by precedent. I don't personally care that much, beyond parity. I already have a Fellblade and two Sicarans, I don't have much interest in their awkward middle sibling.
cole1114 wrote: So with the confirmation Kratos can be taken in 40k, I wonder if they'll end up as HS or LOW.
I'm hoping for HS, mostly because I'm already planning on buying two anyway.
It's as big as a Spartan, so probably a LoW. And it'll have Martial Legacy.
Aaaannddd.........how much do you want to bet they give it to loyalists, but not Chaos?
I hope not. I'm already planning on finding some nice flayed body models to pop all over mine. The nice thing about night lords is they work in both eras that way.
I also think they should probably just make the spartan a HS... but after the monolith I doubt they'd make anything even remotely sizable a HS anyway.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Meh, just going by precedent. I don't personally care that much, beyond parity. I already have a Fellblade and two Sicarans, I don't have much interest in their awkward middle sibling.
I want one for my CSM just so I can have an excuse to call the tank the 'Blades of Chaos'.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Aaaannddd.........how much do you want to bet they give it to loyalists, but not Chaos?
Given you've preemptively started to gripe about it, I kinda hope that happens.
I could see a GYB datasheet being Loyalist only, though, only for the Kratos to show up in the CSM 'dex a little later, however.
Cutting off your own nose to spite your face. Every single time.
Ensuring that incessant complaining has consequences, more like.
And given the CSM is now probably a July/Aug release, it isn't that major anyway, especially if you confirm it when the GYB datasheet drops. You might need to do additional GYB ones for DG/TS/WE, though.
Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.
Kanluwen wrote: This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.
Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...
tneva82 wrote: You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something...
So with HH starting a two-week preorder period starting on the 4th, does that preclude any major, potentially spiky releases going up for preorder on the 11th? Been out of the loop for a while and I'm not sure how things are done these days.
"All I ever wanted were pics of the new Possessed sprues." -Lorgar, M31
RazakelXIII wrote: So with HH starting a two-week preorder period starting on the 4th, does that preclude any major, potentially spiky releases going up for preorder on the 11th? Been out of the loop for a while and I'm not sure how things are done these days.
"All I ever wanted were pics of the new Possessed sprues." -Lorgar, M31
Yes. No CSM codex in between. 18.6 is earliest preorder for it or anything else of note(aos ghb22, sylvaneth&skaven battletomes for myself that I'm waiting).
RazakelXIII wrote: So with HH starting a two-week preorder period starting on the 4th, does that preclude any major, potentially spiky releases going up for preorder on the 11th? Been out of the loop for a while and I'm not sure how things are done these days.
"All I ever wanted were pics of the new Possessed sprues." -Lorgar, M31
I don't remember a two week pre-order that added new pre-orders in the middle of it. The earliest we should expect Chaos Marines is pre-order on the 18th, release on the 25th. Unless GW wants to release something else first, like more Horus Heresy or some AoS stuff.
Nehekhara lives! Sort of!
Why is the rum always gone?
Doctrines were novel and unique when they were introduced to the game. Giving CSM getting a tweaked version makes sense from the standpoint of symmetry, but it doesn't recognize the fact they are a fundamentally different faction that fights differently.
It's not a big problem, just a missed opportunity.
I do feel it is a big problem, because it speaks to how fundamentally misaligned the design team is with what the community wants.
Yeah, giving CSM "Spiky Doctrines" is both incredibly uncreative, and not what many CSM players would want. They might be ok mechanically, but thematically, they're a complete miss IMO. Especially when compared to what the other Chaos factions released so far have, like Death Guard, Thousand Sons, and Chaos Knights.
Another question worth considering: will these superdoctrines make much of a difference for CSM armies?
Coming from the standpoint CSM generally field mid-range shooting, melee oriented lists. While the new Codex might introduce some new and unique playstyles, our unit selection is differs from Loyalist options in terms of weapon selection, range of shooting, and presence on the board. When you consider each doctrine on it's own, it seems like they're only situationally beneficial and only for certain lists.
The Destruction doctrine gives exploding 6s to heavy / grenade / rapid fire weapons. It applies turn 1. So Obliterators, Havocs, Helbrutes, Forgefiends, Predators, Land Raiders and Lord of Skulls can benefit from it. But Obliterators generally start in reserve, Forgefiends don't have great range, and Preds / LRs / LoS don't appear in too many lists. So this doctrine really only matters for lists with Havocs and Helbrutes, and it's only for one turn. Even so, things like Lascannons and Missile Launchers are single shot, you don't have a huge pool of dice to throw.
The Massacre doctrine gives exploding 6s to Rapid Fire / Assault / Pistol weapons. It applies turn 2 and possibly 3. Bolters, Sonic Blasters, Plasma Guns, Melta Guns, and their pistol / combi variants are the guns that benefit from this doctrine. While Plasma / Melta guns are certainly great, the only unit we have that can take more than 2 are Chosen. We don't have equivalent units to Plasma Intercessors, who all carry a Plasma Gun. And unlike Bolt Carbines, with 30" range, we have to get to 24" / 12" to shoot. This doesn't benefit us the same way it would a Loyalist army because of the lack of weapons specialization, and it won't apply to as many models based on range.
The Slaughter doctrine gives exploding 6s to pistol / melee / assault attacks. It applies from turn 3 / 4 on. Various HQs, CSMs, Chosen, Possessed, melee Obliterators, Maulerfiends, melee Helbrutes, and Venomcrawlers will see the most benefit, they will have the large pools of dice that make exploding 6s matter most. I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest the list that would most benefit from this kind of doctrine would be a Possessed Bomb. Anything else would be less efficient. So great if you're footslogging large units that charge across the board to tear into opponents, but far less great for any other kind of list.
(For the record, I don't know if superdoctrines will apply to Cultists / Mutants / Cult troops. I'm assuming not.)
Feel free to explain why I'm wrong, would love to hear. But my take is the superdoctrines are structured for an army more like Primaris Marines and offer far fewer benefits to CSM based on the units we actually have.
Doctrines were novel and unique when they were introduced to the game. Giving CSM getting a tweaked version makes sense from the standpoint of symmetry, but it doesn't recognize the fact they are a fundamentally different faction that fights differently.
It's not a big problem, just a missed opportunity.
I do feel it is a big problem, because it speaks to how fundamentally misaligned the design team is with what the community wants.
Yeah, giving CSM "Spiky Doctrines" is both incredibly uncreative, and not what many CSM players would want. They might be ok mechanically, but thematically, they're a complete miss IMO. Especially when compared to what the other Chaos factions released so far have, like Death Guard, Thousand Sons, and Chaos Knights.
Another question worth considering: will these superdoctrines make much of a difference for CSM armies?
Coming from the standpoint CSM generally field mid-range shooting, melee oriented lists. While the new Codex might introduce some new and unique playstyles, our unit selection is differs from Loyalist options in terms of weapon selection, range of shooting, and presence on the board. When you consider each doctrine on it's own, it seems like they're only situationally beneficial and only for certain lists.
The Destruction doctrine gives exploding 6s to heavy / grenade / rapid fire weapons. It applies turn 1. So Obliterators, Havocs, Helbrutes, Forgefiends, Predators, Land Raiders and Lord of Skulls can benefit from it. But Obliterators generally start in reserve, Forgefiends don't have great range, and Preds / LRs / LoS don't appear in too many lists. So this doctrine really only matters for lists with Havocs and Helbrutes, and it's only for one turn. Even so, things like Lascannons and Missile Launchers are single shot, you don't have a huge pool of dice to throw.
The Massacre doctrine gives exploding 6s to Rapid Fire / Assault / Pistol weapons. It applies turn 2 and possibly 3. Bolters, Sonic Blasters, Plasma Guns, Melta Guns, and their pistol / combi variants are the guns that benefit from this doctrine. While Plasma / Melta guns are certainly great, the only unit we have that can take more than 2 are Chosen. We don't have equivalent units to Plasma Intercessors, who all carry a Plasma Gun. And unlike Bolt Carbines, with 30" range, we have to get to 24" / 12" to shoot. This doesn't benefit us the same way it would a Loyalist army because of the lack of weapons specialization, and it won't apply to as many models based on range.
The Slaughter doctrine gives exploding 6s to pistol / melee / assault attacks. It applies from turn 3 / 4 on. Various HQs, CSMs, Chosen, Possessed, melee Obliterators, Maulerfiends, melee Helbrutes, and Venomcrawlers will see the most benefit, they will have the large pools of dice that make exploding 6s matter most. I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest the list that would most benefit from this kind of doctrine would be a Possessed Bomb. Anything else would be less efficient. So great if you're footslogging large units that charge across the board to tear into opponents, but far less great for any other kind of list.
(For the record, I don't know if superdoctrines will apply to Cultists / Mutants / Cult troops. I'm assuming not.)
Feel free to explain why I'm wrong, would love to hear. But my take is the superdoctrines are structured for an army more like Primaris Marines and offer far fewer benefits to CSM based on the units we actually have.
Inclined to agree, the added ap on doctrines is the main attraction a lot of the time, people balance around and for ap-1 on a bolter (as seen in other threads) which makes them a big pillow fisted here, given the points for the 2nd wound you'll actually have lower bolter shot output than before anyway.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/30 11:32:27
blood reaper wrote: 40k fans and GW apologists legit have the most bizarre and spiteful mindsets around.
Not any less bizarre and spiteful than those who spend their entire pastime posting toxic posts about a game they hate instead of simply walking away from it.
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
blood reaper wrote: 40k fans and GW apologists legit have the most bizarre and spiteful mindsets around.
Not any less bizarre and spiteful than those who spend their entire pastime posting toxic posts about a game they hate instead of simply walking away from it.
techsoldaten wrote: The Massacre doctrine gives exploding 6s to Rapid Fire / Assault / Pistol weapons. It applies turn 2 and possibly 3. Bolters, Sonic Blasters, Plasma Guns, Melta Guns, and their pistol / combi variants are the guns that benefit from this doctrine. While Plasma / Melta guns are certainly great, the only unit we have that can take more than 2 are Chosen. We don't have equivalent units to Plasma Intercessors, who all carry a Plasma Gun. And unlike Bolt Carbines, with 30" range, we have to get to 24" / 12" to shoot. This doesn't benefit us the same way it would a Loyalist army because of the lack of weapons specialization, and it won't apply to as many models based on range.
(For the record, I don't know if superdoctrines will apply to Cultists / Mutants / Cult troops. I'm assuming not.)
Feel free to explain why I'm wrong, would love to hear. But my take is the superdoctrines are structured for an army more like Primaris Marines and offer far fewer benefits to CSM based on the units we actually have.
Bold underline by me.
For the record it appears that you are including Cult troops since they are the only troops allowed to have Sonic Blasters AFAIK.
The leaks say Noise Marines are still in unlike the other Cults.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/30 14:58:35
You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
Hallowed is the All Pie The Before Times: A Place That Celebrates The World That Was
blood reaper wrote: 40k fans and GW apologists legit have the most bizarre and spiteful mindsets around.
Not any less bizarre and spiteful than those who spend their entire pastime posting toxic posts about a game they hate instead of simply walking away from it.
I can imagine your conception of 'toxic posting' is a very colourful and broad one.
The biggest indicator someone is a loser is them complaining about 3d printers or piracy.
Doctrines were novel and unique when they were introduced to the game. Giving CSM getting a tweaked version makes sense from the standpoint of symmetry, but it doesn't recognize the fact they are a fundamentally different faction that fights differently.
It's not a big problem, just a missed opportunity.
I do feel it is a big problem, because it speaks to how fundamentally misaligned the design team is with what the community wants.
Yeah, giving CSM "Spiky Doctrines" is both incredibly uncreative, and not what many CSM players would want. They might be ok mechanically, but thematically, they're a complete miss IMO. Especially when compared to what the other Chaos factions released so far have, like Death Guard, Thousand Sons, and Chaos Knights.
Another question worth considering: will these superdoctrines make much of a difference for CSM armies?
Coming from the standpoint CSM generally field mid-range shooting, melee oriented lists. While the new Codex might introduce some new and unique playstyles, our unit selection is differs from Loyalist options in terms of weapon selection, range of shooting, and presence on the board. When you consider each doctrine on it's own, it seems like they're only situationally beneficial and only for certain lists.
The Destruction doctrine gives exploding 6s to heavy / grenade / rapid fire weapons. It applies turn 1. So Obliterators, Havocs, Helbrutes, Forgefiends, Predators, Land Raiders and Lord of Skulls can benefit from it. But Obliterators generally start in reserve, Forgefiends don't have great range, and Preds / LRs / LoS don't appear in too many lists. So this doctrine really only matters for lists with Havocs and Helbrutes, and it's only for one turn. Even so, things like Lascannons and Missile Launchers are single shot, you don't have a huge pool of dice to throw.
The Massacre doctrine gives exploding 6s to Rapid Fire / Assault / Pistol weapons. It applies turn 2 and possibly 3. Bolters, Sonic Blasters, Plasma Guns, Melta Guns, and their pistol / combi variants are the guns that benefit from this doctrine. While Plasma / Melta guns are certainly great, the only unit we have that can take more than 2 are Chosen. We don't have equivalent units to Plasma Intercessors, who all carry a Plasma Gun. And unlike Bolt Carbines, with 30" range, we have to get to 24" / 12" to shoot. This doesn't benefit us the same way it would a Loyalist army because of the lack of weapons specialization, and it won't apply to as many models based on range.
The Slaughter doctrine gives exploding 6s to pistol / melee / assault attacks. It applies from turn 3 / 4 on. Various HQs, CSMs, Chosen, Possessed, melee Obliterators, Maulerfiends, melee Helbrutes, and Venomcrawlers will see the most benefit, they will have the large pools of dice that make exploding 6s matter most. I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest the list that would most benefit from this kind of doctrine would be a Possessed Bomb. Anything else would be less efficient. So great if you're footslogging large units that charge across the board to tear into opponents, but far less great for any other kind of list.
(For the record, I don't know if superdoctrines will apply to Cultists / Mutants / Cult troops. I'm assuming not.)
Feel free to explain why I'm wrong, would love to hear. But my take is the superdoctrines are structured for an army more like Primaris Marines and offer far fewer benefits to CSM based on the units we actually have.
I'm not going to argue that you're wrong. It does seem like they've taken something that fits better for loyalists and just added a random element because "Chaos". Like I said, it's uncreative, and doesn't fit the faction. You're analysis just adds to that. I guess we can still hope that this is just a "placeholder" rule for the playtest doc, but right now it's all we've got, unfortunately.
Another question worth considering: will these superdoctrines make much of a difference for CSM armies?
Coming from the standpoint CSM generally field mid-range shooting, melee oriented lists. While the new Codex might introduce some new and unique playstyles, our unit selection is differs from Loyalist options in terms of weapon selection, range of shooting, and presence on the board. When you consider each doctrine on it's own, it seems like they're only situationally beneficial and only for certain lists.
The Destruction doctrine gives exploding 6s to heavy / grenade / rapid fire weapons. It applies turn 1. So Obliterators, Havocs, Helbrutes, Forgefiends, Predators, Land Raiders and Lord of Skulls can benefit from it. But Obliterators generally start in reserve, Forgefiends don't have great range, and Preds / LRs / LoS don't appear in too many lists. So this doctrine really only matters for lists with Havocs and Helbrutes, and it's only for one turn. Even so, things like Lascannons and Missile Launchers are single shot, you don't have a huge pool of dice to throw.
The Massacre doctrine gives exploding 6s to Rapid Fire / Assault / Pistol weapons. It applies turn 2 and possibly 3. Bolters, Sonic Blasters, Plasma Guns, Melta Guns, and their pistol / combi variants are the guns that benefit from this doctrine. While Plasma / Melta guns are certainly great, the only unit we have that can take more than 2 are Chosen. We don't have equivalent units to Plasma Intercessors, who all carry a Plasma Gun. And unlike Bolt Carbines, with 30" range, we have to get to 24" / 12" to shoot. This doesn't benefit us the same way it would a Loyalist army because of the lack of weapons specialization, and it won't apply to as many models based on range.
The Slaughter doctrine gives exploding 6s to pistol / melee / assault attacks. It applies from turn 3 / 4 on. Various HQs, CSMs, Chosen, Possessed, melee Obliterators, Maulerfiends, melee Helbrutes, and Venomcrawlers will see the most benefit, they will have the large pools of dice that make exploding 6s matter most. I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest the list that would most benefit from this kind of doctrine would be a Possessed Bomb. Anything else would be less efficient. So great if you're footslogging large units that charge across the board to tear into opponents, but far less great for any other kind of list.
(For the record, I don't know if superdoctrines will apply to Cultists / Mutants / Cult troops. I'm assuming not.)
Feel free to explain why I'm wrong, would love to hear. But my take is the superdoctrines are structured for an army more like Primaris Marines and offer far fewer benefits to CSM based on the units we actually have.
I'm not going to argue that you're wrong. It does seem like they've taken something that fits better for loyalists and just added a random element because "Chaos". Like I said, it's uncreative, and doesn't fit the faction. You're analysis just adds to that. I guess we can still hope that this is just a "placeholder" rule for the playtest doc, but right now it's all we've got, unfortunately.
The point of playtesting is to reveal parts of the game that need improvement.
